E-Collar

[UplandJim]

<rant>

I know this isn't going to win me a lot of friends here but that's not what I'm here for ... In my opinion, If you need to use an e-collar either you have a dog that isn't worth training or you are a trainer not worth a dog. Dog training existed long before electronic devices. You can look at it two ways: It's either a gimmick OR you have a dog that needs to be trained this way which shouldn't have been bred in the first place OR you don't have a good Dog/Handler relationship OR you simply don't have what it takes be invested in a dog properly.

I know I'm going out on a limb here but I disagree with all you "zappers", proper training requires patience while use of the e-collar seems to be a "band-aid" if you will to proper training. You cannot expedite real training with with e-collars to make up for your "too busy to train" schedules.

Real training takes thought, desire, dedication and perseverance.

</rant>

[SpringerDude]

Jim,

You are putting all trainers in the same barrel as those that do not know the proper way to train with an e-collar. E-collar's are not to be used as a tool to a quicker trained dog if used correctly.

I do not use an ecollar because I am not comfortable with using one. I have seen dogs get confused and have seen handlers miss using the collar. I have seen dogs have to be worked through problems caused by the inappropriate use of the collar.

BUT, I will still defend the folks that use it properly and get the results they want. E-collars are just another tool and can be used inappropriately just as the heeling stick, the leash, the choke chain collar, the pinch collar, etc..

Just my thoughts...

[UplandJim]

Jim,

You are putting all trainers in the same barrel as those that do not know the proper way to train with an e-collar. E-collar's are not to be used as a tool to a quicker trained dog if used correctly.

I do not use an ecollar because I am not comfortable with using one. I have seen dogs get confused and have seen handlers miss using the collar. I have seen dogs have to be worked through problems caused by the inappropriate use of the collar.

BUT, I will still defend the folks that use it properly and get the results they want. E-collars are just another tool and can be used inappropriately just as the heeling stick, the leash, the choke chain collar, the pinch collar, etc..

Just my thoughts...

I hear you SpringerDude. I just don't get it. There will always be too many people to defend and lambblast it's use even when improperly done. To me I would think the average hunter would only need the basics to have great fun on a hunt. And those basics are, ..well, basic and can be achieved without shortcuts.

Field trialing, in my opinion should ban the use of the E-collar'd trained dogs.

[campgsp]

Why do you think it's a "band-aid"? Or that it "expidites" training? When it is neither.
Just because one or more trainers uses an ecollar in their approach doesn't mean they have no patience or that they don't know what they are doing. An ecollar is just another helpful tool. It's no different then tying 8, 50' check chords together to have control of the dog when it's farther away. It's just an extension of your reach.
Yep their are people who should never touch one. And others that shouldn't even be training dogs altogether, but not everyone is a bad guy/ girl.
I don't use ecollars in every training sometimes you just don't need it other times you'll wish you had one. Better to be prepared for the worse then be left in the dust. (Dog chasing deer, good bye) IMO. All in all its still better to know the dog understands a command before using one on them, but thats just me.

I hope you'll realize that it's nothing more then another tool in the bag. And if anyone thinks they can train a dog quicker by using an ecollar, I feel sorry for them. Nothing special at all. Just a special price tag...

[Maurice]

I have trained both ways, been at it a long time. I will stick with the ecollar. The ecollar helps more soft type dogs make it to a higher level of training imo. The ecollar is no shortcut to train a dog if it is used right. It is not a must have type of tool but man it sure is nice.
Mo

[displaced_texan]

If you need a tractor, you have no business farming, people have been plowing with livestock way longer...

[nikegundog]

<rant>

I know this isn't going to win me a lot of friends here but that's not what I'm here for ... In my opinion, If you need to use an e-collar either you have a dog that isn't worth training or you are a trainer not worth a dog. Dog training existed long before electronic devices. You can look at it two ways: (1)It's either a gimmick OR(2) you have a dog that needs to be trained this way which shouldn't have been bred in the first place OR (3)you don't have a good Dog/Handler relationship OR (4) you simply don't have what it takes be invested in a dog properly.

I know I'm going out on a limb here but I disagree with all you "zappers", proper training requires patience while use of the e-collar seems to be a "band-aid" if you will to proper training. You cannot expedite real training with with e-collars to make up for your "too busy to train" schedules.

Real training takes thought, desire, dedication and perseverance.

</rant>

Me thinks that either you can't count or are hitting the bottle a little heavy tonight. Myself, I am going back to my cave and eat my squirrel raw, because cavemen before me did not need fire, any caveman that needs fire are not fit to be bred.

[birddogger]

<rant>

I know this isn't going to win me a lot of friends here but that's not what I'm here for ... In my opinion, If you need to use an e-collar either you have a dog that isn't worth training or you are a trainer not worth a dog. Dog training existed long before electronic devices. You can look at it two ways: It's either a gimmick OR you have a dog that needs to be trained this way which shouldn't have been bred in the first place OR you don't have a good Dog/Handler relationship OR you simply don't have what it takes be invested in a dog properly.

I know I'm going out on a limb here but I disagree with all you "zappers", proper training requires patience while use of the e-collar seems to be a "band-aid" if you will to proper training. You cannot expedite real training with with e-collars to make up for your "too busy to train" schedules.

Real training takes thought, desire, dedication and perseverance.

</rant>

You are obviously SO misinformed on the proper use of the e-collar! You are passing judjement on trainers who use the tool and trashing their dogs. Opinion is one thing, but passing judgement on somebody or something that you know absolutely nothing about is absurd!!

Charlie

[roaniecowpony]

The late night entertainment is hilarious.

[birddogger]

The late night entertainment is hilarious.

Yeah, and I fell for it!

Charlie

[polmaise]

Is there any chance I can have the key to Upland Jim's medicine cabinet?

[crackerd]

<rant>

I know this isn't going to win me a lot of friends here but that's not what I'm here for ... In my opinion, If you need to use an e-collar either you have a dog that isn't worth training or you are a trainer not worth a dog. Dog training existed long before electronic devices. You can look at it two ways: It's either a gimmick OR you have a dog that needs to be trained this way which shouldn't have been bred in the first place OR you don't have a good Dog/Handler relationship OR you simply don't have what it takes be invested in a dog properly.

I know I'm going out on a limb here but I disagree with all you "zappers", proper training requires patience while use of the e-collar seems to be a "band-aid" if you will to proper training. You cannot expedite real training with with e-collars to make up for your "too busy to train" schedules.

Real training takes thought, desire, dedication and perseverance.

</rant>

Jim, why not substitute "force fetch" for the e-collar in every instance you've railed against it? Remember your problem with avoidance, and the dog not giving up the retrieve - at 9 months old? Does the "need" for force fetch become obvious, or are you still "committed" to waiting the dog out? - "Proper training requir(ing) patience," "invest(ing) in a dog properly," "good Dog/Handler relationship," and all that?

The overarching adage about e-collar use goes like this: If you can't train a dog without it, you won't train a dog with it.

Must say your coda is pretty cool, but coming from a source who's not yet trained up a gundog, it's built on a foundation of straw.

MG

[gonehuntin']

On your first or 2nd dog Jim?

[Trekmoor]

Sorry Upland Jim but if you are genuinely trying to persuade folk not to use e-collars then you are going about it in the wrong way. All you are doing is making them put their hackles up. If you really believe a more subtle approach works best with dogs then why not apply the same psychology to people ?

Bill T.

[CDN_Cocker]

I felt the same way as you Jim until I saw them used by a professional and let me tell you - when I have the money I will be purchasing one. It is not a substitute for training - your dog has to have already completed "proper training" for it to be used effectively. What the collar does is give you a way to correct your dog when it is not at the end of a 6' leash. Could most people who just hunt and have fun get by without one? Certainly! But I think if you are looking to make a reliable dog with (now get this) less force - an e-collar is the way to go. For me personally I think it will help make training for me and Jake easier on both of us. Being a trial-bred spaniel - he is super smart, super fast, and of course... super soft. Using an e-collar will give me a tool to correct him in a gentler manner than I could do through leash corrections or a scruffing, not to mention at the exact moment when he makes a mistake, therefore making it more justified and allowing him to know what exactly he did wrong (I can run fairly fast, but I don't think its fast enough in some cases lol). I suggest going and see someone who really uses them well. It makes for a very confident, happy, and reliable dog. The dogs I seen went absolutely nuts as soon as they saw the collars come out as they knew it was training time and they couldn't wait to start.

[UplandJim]

A little harsh I presume. The Kennel training post (the one where the pup won't come out of the kennel) set me off I guess. My apologies to those who use the e-collar properly.

[crackerd]

Using an e-collar will give me a tool to correct him in a gentler manner than I could do through leash corrections or a scruffing, not to mention at the exact moment when he makes a mistake, therefore making it more justified and allowing him to know what exactly he did wrong (I can run fairly fast, but I don't think its fast enough in some cases lol). I suggest going and see someone who really uses them well. It makes for a very confident, happy, and reliable dog. The dogs I seen went absolutely nuts as soon as they saw the collars come out as they knew it was training time and they couldn't wait to start.

Cass, given the disparaging, unfounded and, well, rather ignorant comment made elsewhere about retriever trainers and their "superiority complex," it behooves you to share with Upland Jim and others "invested" in this thread how you were able to discern all the above. Along with disclosing the largesse of the same trainer's inviting you out to bring you into the picture of proper e-collar training. Who knows? - given his geographic location, the kind of opportunity you've gotten may be readily available for Jim here to take advantage of, too. One other thing - the gentleman you've trained with isn't a professional at all, but the "giving back to the game" kind of amateur who gives the best retriever trainers their good name.

MG

[CDN_Cocker]

Crackerd is bang on. Spaniel folks are hard to find Jim, sometimes you have to think outside the box. And retriever folks are more than willing to help absolutely anyone with their dog. Its true that there comes a time when training diverges, but there are a multitude of things that are the same - regardless of whether you own a lab or a spaniel. Basic obedience, retrieving... even quartering (though I must say spaniels look better doing it but I could be biased lol) are the same. Find someone who knows what they are doing and hang on for the ride because the information and help you will receive is invaluable. Things you don't even realize you're doing wrong (body language, tone, too much voice) can quickly be pointed out and of course, hands-on learning will help way more than any book or internet forum Get out there and see what you can find - you won't regret it.

[EvanG]

<rant>

I know this isn't going to win me a lot of friends here but that's not what I'm here for ... In my opinion, If you need to use an e-collar either you have a dog that isn't worth training or you are a trainer not worth a dog....

Real training takes thought, desire, dedication and perseverance.

</rant>

Whether or not a "real trainer" chooses to use any tool of the trade, dedication and perseverance are necessities. The best way to win your case against e-collars is to produce a dog that is demonstratively superior without one. A better and more practical approach would be to learn something about them and the best methods for their use before openly condemning them.

Trained influences on retrievers project - YouTube

EvanG

[onuhunter02]

It was explained to me this way and I agree the e-collar is a long check cord at first. Then it is an insurance policy no one plans on getting in accidents but wen still pay for better insurance. I know if my dog for what ever reason has a day where she does what she wants I would love to have that check cord. I will agree a lot of people use them incorrectly but that does not mean they can't be a good tool. I will say this if anyone just blames the training I hope they hunt with a single shot and only take ammo for the allowed amount of game because if they take more than that then they need to go to the range instead of hunting. With that being said I carry pleanty of rounds so I can shoot my gun a lot lol.

[roaniecowpony]

I'm in agreement with Evan and whoever suggested that the e-collar was an extension of your ability to correct the dog off the checkcord.

I'm an e-collar user and have some of the higher end versions. I have a Garmin Alpha, Tritronics Pro 100, and a DT Systems SPT 2420. I mention this because I think there are features with these collars, that aren't on the lower end models, which reflect the advances in how e-collars are used. Like any product type in most markets, the product features reflecting the latest advancements are found on the higher end products. I started with a entry level e-collar and quickly realized I couldn't train in a manner that was as efficient, consistant, and meaningful to the dog as with the better equipment. Some of the better e-collars have the capability to give very subtle stimulus as well as a useful gradient of increasing stimulus to fit what the individual dog needs for a correction, in a particular scenario. Maybe other people have a different opinion on this, but that is/was my opinion.

I know I made plenty of mistakes in my use of the e-collar early on. Meaningful use of an e-collar took me a while to learn and I know my dog was paying a price for it. I made every attempt to keep that price low and learn quickly. But, like any skill, it still took time and proficiency. Any of you that have used e-collars for many years know that someone just can't pick up a collar and be proficient in its use without a lot of experience.

Just my observation, but opponents of the e-collar are often people that have trained for many years and saw the early, crude e-collars that may have been unnecessarily brutal on the dogs. I just don't think that has to be the case with modern equipment.

[crackerd]

Good post, but this -

Any of you that have used e-collars for many years know that someone just can't pick up a collar and be proficient in its use without a lot of experience.

- makes a perfect testimonial for why retriever training programs exist: Follow a program, particularly with regards to the e-collar, and neither you nor your dog "pays the price" for experimentation or from your acquiring e-collar "know-how" at the dog's expense. They - programs like Mr. Graham's - tell you how to use the collar, when to use the collar and what doesn't "need" to be done with the e-collar in training.

MG

[ruffbritt4]

IMO, ecollars are a great tool WHEN PROPERLY USED. If a dog is chasing a rabbit or a deer, you need to stop that dog. Also, it is not a shortcut. The main reason I use an ecollar is for the dogs safety. I want to make sure he listens to the come command every time. There might be something harmful that he is thinking about going to, but if he listens, he is out of harms way.

[polmaise]

- makes a perfect testimonial for why retriever training programs exist: Follow a program, particularly with regards to the e-collar, and neither you nor your dog "pays the price" for experimentation or from your acquiring e-collar "know-how" at the dog's expense. They - programs like Mr. Graham's - tell you how to use the collar, when to use the collar and what doesn't "need" to be done with the e-collar in training.

MG

Unfortunately MG, some get a truck and a manual then tinker about with the engine and use the wrong tools thinking that they are a mechanic without serving an apprenticeship.

[crackerd]

Ah, Robt., 'tis a tonne of truth in that commentary. First thing I do upon getting a new collar is throw away the user manual - or in TriTronics' case, the user video. Because they - the manuals - still espouse e-collar training (continuous stimulation for one thing - direct pressure for another) that most retriever trainers went away from a good while ago.

MG

[polmaise]

IMO, ecollars are a great tool WHEN PROPERLY USED. If a dog is chasing a rabbit or a deer, you need to stop that dog. Also, it is not a shortcut. The main reason I use an ecollar is for the dogs safety. I want to make sure he listens to the come command every time. There might be something harmful that he is thinking about going to, but if he listens, he is out of harms way.

I personally believe this statement is why some believe the e-collar is perceived in a way that it is by those that don't follow a collar programme.
....
I have mine trained on the stop whistle to stop,and I have them steady on all forms of game before I ask them to be in that game!..As for safety, well I'm pretty sure I could stop them at full pelt on the kerbside without a collar.
But that's just my thoughts, nothing personal.

[aulrich]

Like jetski's and cough syrup they are only fun if used improperly.

[Maurice]

I'm in agreement with Evan and whoever suggested that the e-collar was an extension of your ability to correct the dog off the checkcord.

I'm an e-collar user and have some of the higher end versions. I have a Garmin Alpha, Tritronics Pro 100, and a DT Systems SPT 2420. I mention this because I think there are features with these collars, that aren't on the lower end models, which reflect the advances in how e-collars are used. Like any product type in most markets, the product features reflecting the latest advancements are found on the higher end products. I started with a entry level e-collar and quickly realized I couldn't train in a manner that was as efficient, consistant, and meaningful to the dog as with the better equipment. Some of the better e-collars have the capability to give very subtle stimulus as well as a useful gradient of increasing stimulus to fit what the individual dog needs for a correction, in a particular scenario. Maybe other people have a different opinion on this, but that is/was my opinion.

I know I made plenty of mistakes in my use of the e-collar early on. Meaningful use of an e-collar took me a while to learn and I know my dog was paying a price for it. I made every attempt to keep that price low and learn quickly. But, like any skill, it still took time and proficiency. Any of you that have used e-collars for many years know that someone just can't pick up a collar and be proficient in its use without a lot of experience.

Just my observation, but opponents of the e-collar are often people that have trained for many years and saw the early, crude e-collars that may have been unnecessarily brutal on the dogs. I just don't think that has to be the case with modern equipment.

Excellent post. All ecollars are not created equal and it does take time to learn how to use this tool.

Mo

[rinker]

I use an ecollar because I think it makes learning easier for the dog. An ecollar makes it easy to give instant, consistent, cues. I have a tritronics collar and I do the majority of my training on level 2. I am old enough to remember dog training prior to the modern, variable intensity ecollar, and I think todays training (with an ecollar) is tremendously easier on the dog.

[roaniecowpony]

Crackered,
I agree with you that getting with a pro to train you in e-collar use is a good way to go. Still, e-collars don't come with an activiation code that only a pro can activate after you've taken a course, nor does taking instruction from a pro ensure you are proficient...and what of the dogs used in during the newbie training sessions for the e-collar students. Let's face it, e-collars don't require a firearms training course before you carry and most of the purchasers are much like this forum membership. Hands-on experience is needed at some point, but the price to be paid for a learning curve is on the dog, unfortunately. I think there's probably an opportunity for a computer interactive simulation/game to gain proficiency.

In my situation, I bought the first collar and watched the videos, read the manual and started in with the collar use on a daily basis. It still didn't make up for lack of experience. Also, I think the entry level collar I had (TT Sport) has too gross of increments of stimulation adjustment. Additionally, the thumbwheel would inadvertantly get turned to a higher/lower setting when carrying it, leading to an improper correction (both a characteristic of entry level equipment). About a year and a half after my purchase of the first e-collar, I took a Hickox seminar where he taught e-collar introduction/conditioning as well as yard training/field use with his methods. I saw his methods and recognized they were better than what I was doing, but also that a different collar with much more adjustability and capability was needed. I upgraded to a DT Systems SPT 2420. Years later, I saw where Tritronics had a "trade in your old for credit" upgrade program and I dug the old Sport out of the garage and traded it in for a Pro 100 G3. I put the Pro 100 on the dogs for daily exercise and walk sessions, but rarely have to use a correction. For yard work or choreographed field training, I prefer the SPT 2420 or the Garmin Alpha because both are more flexible.

[crackerd]

Crackered,
I agree with you that getting with a pro to train you in e-collar use is a good way to go. Still, e-collars don't come with an activiation code that only a pro can activate after you've taken a course, nor does taking instruction from a pro ensure you are proficient...and what of the dogs used in during the newbie training sessions for the e-collar students. Let's face it, e-collars don't require a firearms training course before you carry and most of the purchasers are much like this forum membership. Hands-on experience is needed at some point, but the price to be paid for a learning curve is on the dog, unfortunately. I think there's probably an opportunity for a computer interactive simulation/game to gain proficiency.

In my situation, I bought the first collar and watched the videos, read the manual and started in with the collar use on a daily basis...

I'm not talking about adjusting for levels of stimulation, mechanical misfires, "incremental heat" levels or "all e-collars being different," I'm saying that retriever training programs are where e-collar training for newcomers is best articulated.

I also reiterate: the manuals that come with e-collars - except for telling you where the on-off switch is located - aren't worth the recycled paper they're printed on. Same goes for the videos' worth - if you plan to use the e-collar in the most sensitive (did not say "most sensible" though I could have) way for training a gundog.

All gundogs are different too - in what levels of e-collar stimulation that they work best with. You do need to find that specific level, vis-a-vis your dog, for yourself. But retriever training programs tell you, in chapter and verse, where to go from there. Sequentially and step-by, and at every stage of a gundog's development, in how to use it (and better yet, how and when not to use it). Not necessarily light years beyond Hickox or the other gentleman who commented above, but advanced far beyond their precision use of the e-collar nonetheless.

MG

[Winchey]

IMO, ecollars are a great tool WHEN PROPERLY USED. If a dog is chasing a rabbit or a deer, you need to stop that dog. Also, it is not a shortcut. The main reason I use an ecollar is for the dogs safety. I want to make sure he listens to the come command every time. There might be something harmful that he is thinking about going to, but if he listens, he is out of harms way.

I personally believe this statement is why some believe the e-collar is perceived in a way that it is by those that don't follow a collar programme.
....
I have mine trained on the stop whistle to stop,and I have them steady on all forms of game before I ask them to be in that game!..As for safety, well I'm pretty sure I could stop them at full pelt on the kerbside without a collar.
But that's just my thoughts, nothing personal.

I think that is the biggest difference of each side of the pond. Speaking pointing dogs, I and others just run on wild birds, let them develop on their own. They don't really get much of a steering wheel until they are broke around 2 years old. I teach basic obedience and what not, but not formally enough to have them 100% compliant until they have been hunted extensively. They learn to hunt before formal training where it seems they don't hunt until formally trained over there. I no little of the pointing dog culture over there, but my perception is that many here desire a more independent dog, when it comes to pointing dogs, especially in our trials.

[polmaise]

much the same here, no matter the breed,but only those that train dogs for game
we may start a little earlier than you guys though?



But sooner or later they all get the game no matter what.

[roaniecowpony]

I'm not talking about adjusting for levels of stimulation, mechanical misfires, "incremental heat" levels or "all e-collars being different," I'm saying that retriever training programs are where e-collar training for newcomers is best articulated.

I also reiterate: the manuals that come with e-collars - except for telling you where the on-off switch is located - aren't worth the recycled paper they're printed on. Same goes for the videos' worth - if you plan to use the e-collar in the most sensitive (did not say "most sensible" though I could have) way for training a gundog.

All gundogs are different too - in what levels of e-collar stimulation that they work best with. You do need to find that specific level, vis-a-vis your dog, for yourself. But retriever training programs tell you, in chapter and verse, where to go from there. Sequentially and step-by, and at every stage of a gundog's development, in how to use it (and better yet, how and when not to use it). Not necessarily light years beyond Hickox or the other gentleman who commented above, but advanced far beyond their precision use of the e-collar nonetheless.

MG

I think we're pretty much on the same page. Unfortunately, more people buy e-collars and don't pursue proper training on how to use them than those who do. Most may not know how to gain proper training, some will not care because they beleive they are smart enough to figure it out. Improper use & abuse with e-collars further feeds beliefs along the lines of the originator of this thread, IMO.

To all those anti-ecollar people, I'll tell you that my dogs get excited when I pick up my e-collars and put them on the dogs. They know there's fun to follow after putting on an e-collar, not pain. I'd be willing to bet that's true of most of the member's dogs here as well.

[gonehuntin']

Even if you abuse the ecollar, it's a heck of a lot better than the manual alternatives. To listen to a lot of you, one would think the ecollar was the only way to abuse a dog. It isn't. Whips, shot guns, cattle prods, rat shot pistols, nine volt batteries, fists, feet; the list is seemingly endless. Fact is, it's harder to hurt a dog with an ecollar than any other tool.

No matter the method, no matter the tool, no matter the person; any training tool or program can become abuse when temper, stupidity and cruelty over ride compassion and common sense.

And don't shovel me any bull chit about it being easier to abuse a dog with a collar. I've seen too many dogs beaten with fists, kicked, or unmercifully whipped to listen to any of that crap.

[birddogger]

Even if you abuse the ecollar, it's a heck of a lot better than the manual alternatives. To listen to a lot of you, one would think the ecollar was the only way to abuse a dog. It isn't. Whips, shot guns, cattle prods, rat shot pistols, nine volt batteries, fists, feet; the list is seemingly endless. Fact is, it's harder to hurt a dog with an ecollar than any other tool.

No matter the method, no matter the tool, no matter the person; any training tool or program can become abuse when temper, stupidity and cruelty over ride compassion and common sense.

And don't shovel me any bull chit about it being easier to abuse a dog with a collar. I've seen too many dogs beaten with fists, kicked, or unmercifully whipped to listen to any of that crap.

AMEN!!!

Charlie

[Neil]

What total nonsense.

[roaniecowpony]

Another point in the philosophy of why an e-collar is useful. Studies have confirmed that a correction/punishment for disobedience must be delivered within a couple seconds of the disobedience in order for the dog to reliably associate the correction with the disobedient behavior.

If you don't have an e-collar on a dog and aren't proficient in its use, you can't effectively correct for any disobedience beyond the length of a cord on the dog or the distance you can throw an object at the dog.

So without an e-collar, your toolbag is down on capability.

With regard to the brutality of an e-collar, I was taught that the goal was to use lowest levels of stimulation necessary to correct the behavior, which helps to maintain a dog's positive attitude, and to ensure it's used timely so the dog associates the correction with the behavior. This works for me and my dogs.

[crackerd]

Even if you abuse the ecollar, it's a heck of a lot better than the manual alternatives. To listen to a lot of you, one would think the ecollar was the only way to abuse a dog. It isn't. Whips, shot guns, cattle prods, rat shot pistols, nine volt batteries, fists, feet; the list is seemingly endless. Fact is, it's harder to hurt a dog with an ecollar than any other tool.

No matter the method, no matter the tool, no matter the person; any training tool or program can become abuse when temper, stupidity and cruelty over ride compassion and common sense.

And don't shovel me any bull chit about it being easier to abuse a dog with a collar. I've seen too many dogs beaten with fists, kicked, or unmercifully whipped to listen to any of that crap.

What total nonsense.

Neil, if I've wrongly applied your quote in response to gonehuntin's assertions, I apologize. But if you're saying "total nonsense" to what GH has seen, and knows from "how it used to be," you might want to reconsider. He's been there, as a longtime gundog pro trainer and retriever field trialer.

MG

[4dabirds]

much the same here, no matter the breed,but only those that train dogs for game
we may start a little earlier than you guys though?



But sooner or later they all get the game no matter what.

Funny thing is when were talking about different ways to do things. You would be arrested in new york for what in that second picture !

[4dabirds]

A little harsh I presume. The Kennel training post (the one where the pup won't come out of the kennel) set me off I guess. My apologies to those who use the e-collar properly.

Jim it is apparent to me that you did not understand that post either. The kennel command is used as a way to teach the dog how to turn the stimulation off. The dog is already obeying the command before the collar is used . This is a way to teach the dog how to react to the collar by obeying an already trained behavior. It is an intro to the e-collar. When properly done the stimulation is so low that the dog will acknowledge it but it does not hurt. It is at a level that if you put the collar on your hand you would not feel it. He op asked the question to get an idea of what he was doing wrong and came to the conclusion that his collar was too hot for the type of training that was being done and he was too early to be doing the training in the first place. He was mart enough to get some help and did.When properly used the e-collr is far more humane then a leash jerk and is far more effective. When improperly used both are abuse.

[polmaise]

Funny thing is when were talking about different ways to do things. You would be arrested in new york for what in that second picture !

Never been there,but I believe all the bad Bucks are killing themselves in that place.

[roaniecowpony]

... It is an intro to the e-collar. When properly done the stimulation is so low that the dog will acknowledge it but it does not hurt. It is at a level that if you put the collar on your hand you would not feel it. He op asked the question to get an idea of what he was doing wrong and came to the conclusion that his collar was too hot for the type of training that was being done ...

Not all collars have the fine adjustment and low range to get down in this area of low stimulation and not jump from too little to too much stimulation. The question about "what practical use is 50 or 100 levels?" is answered when you get down at the bottom of the range and are trying to find the perfect level for doing the above introduction of an e-collar to a sensitive dog. The 50 or 100 levels aren't for going from one end to the other. In fact, the highest levels are may not be much different on a 100 level collar as they are on a 18 level collar. It's all about slicing it up into small increments so you can tailor the stimulation to the dog, especially on the low end. I've never had to use above a 4 medium on my 18 level Pro 100 (which is a fraction of a 3 high), nor more than a 13-14 on my 50 level DT Systems SPT 2420. The most useful levels on my dogs with the DT is 2-3 and setting the "jump" button to 10. So for my uses, my 50 level DT has about a 13-14 level range of usefulness. With my Pro 100, to stay within that same range of stimulation as the DT levels 1 to 14, I have only 4 levels to chose from.

[roaniecowpony]

Funny thing is when were talking about different ways to do things. You would be arrested in new york for what in that second picture !

Never been there,but I believe all the bad Bucks are killing themselves in that place.

What no pics of a string o birds and a nice Boss or Purdey?

[CDN_Cocker]

Spaniels and labs hunting deer? Insane. Maybe I should bring another dog house to the deer camp this year for the cocker - but he's a bit too purdy to be fraternizing with all them ugly hounds hahahahaha.

[Neil]

It was addressed to the op.

[RayGubernat]

I personally view these bulletin boards as primarly a resource, a reservoir of information about dogs, dog training, hunting and guns.

I welcome those who come and ask questions. Asking questions is the first step in how one learns. I will do my best to answer honest questions if I feel confident I know the answer. There are many who frequent this board that feel as I do.

No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. I have made tons of them and when the mistakes were training mistakes, it was my dogs that suffered for it. I regret that but....stuff happens. The key is to find out how not to make the same mistake again. That means asking for help.

I could be wrong about this, BUT...beating up on someone who has admitted they screwed up, and is asking for help, is not generally the best way to foster an educational atmosphere.

There are lots and lots of ways to get from here to there in the training of a hunting dog. Some are better than others, some require different facilities, tools, levels of knowledge and experience. IMO, there is not one best way...for every one and every dog. If there is, I want to know about it.

The occasional rant and outburst can also be very helpful in highlighting subjects that need, indeed deserve more discussion. If someone feels strongly enough about something to holler about it, then perhaps they are not alone and it should be discussed. The objective is more compete understanding. Highlighting a problem area and discussing it is always a good option, I think. If the discussion gets heated, that is usually a good measure of how strongly folks feel about some aspect of the topic and tends to bring out the underlying issues if they exist.

That works too.

Carry on.

RayG

[polmaise]

Now where is that Like button?

[gonehuntin']

A class post Ray.

[RayGubernat]

A class post Ray.

Thanks for the kind words. Now if I could just follow my own advice I would be fine.

Unfortunately, like most of us, I do get wound around my own axles every now and then and slip a gear, Oh well. I am far from perfect and I'm OK with not being perfect.

RayG