Gun Dog Forum

hey guys i just got my first gsp and also my first gun dog..... im training him my self with a little hepl from a friend that has some exsperience in training. i caught some pigeons in the city under a bridge and want to use them for training. i know they are not homing pigeons....so my concern is how can i use them to train???? i have a launcher....ive read that i could use a pigeon hobble and go that rout of launching the bird and letting the bird crash to the ground after flying 50 yards or so. but how do i approch this with the dog??? check coarded i would imagine and then let the dog point then i would pop the launcher then let the dog chase the bird.... but im confused on how close i should let the dog get to the bird on the ground after the bird reaches the ground. i read to not let the dog catch the bird.... at least not at his age yet... he is 13 wks old as of sat. some imput and direction here would be much help!!!!

If the city overpass where you got the pigeon's is not too far away, then treat the pigeons like homers and let them go back home. They will go back to their home roost. Then you can go back and catch them again when you need them. You do not have to feed them all year. I have done this for 16 years. You can put a band on them if you want and then you can see how many times you catch your birds.

Good luck with the pup. I can't help you with a pointing dog. Always had flushers.

Hold off on the launcher for a while. Wave the birds around in front of the dog, then cross the wings and toss the bird gently in some tall grass. Don't let the dog catch it.

gotpointers wrote:Hold off on the launcher for a while. Wave the birds around in front of the dog, then cross the wings and toss the bird gently in some tall grass. Don't let the dog catch it.

Spot on. Let the pup catch his first bird. It is his to do what ever he chooses.

http://georgehickox.com/ First you need to pick a sequential training plan. This is the route that I went . First the video then the seminar. There is a lot to learn about this game so take it slow. There is a good section on his website with articles that were published in Shooting sportsman Magazine. To build prey drive in the dog his program starts with an introduction to birds. You use a locked wing pigeon and put it on the ground to let the dog sniff it and play with it. This assures thst the dog does not have a negative association with the bird. http://www.shootingsportsman.com/wingsh ... ction-bird This is an important step as it sets the tone for the dogs experience with the bird. Done properly the dog will now see the bird as something it can take charge of with no fear. If you follow his program it builds up very slowly to the point where you are flushing pheasants for a dog that is steady and has the confidence to handle them. Good luck with he dog.

hey. how did you catch the pigeons? i want to know first hand experience. hahaha. i have my first gsp as well and i am trying to get him on birds too. building a johnny house but also want to catch pigeons to use. so if you could tell me how you did it i would be very thankful. thanks!

Most all good pups have plenty of desire(prey drive) that will show as the pup grows and need little reinforcement. Sometimes it takes a bird to get it to show but it is there and will show when the time is right. Try to give the pup the opportunity to find a bird and if need be put one down for it and then let nature take it's course. I have never locked wings on a bird and have never seen a need to. I am yet to have a bird beat up on a dog.

Ezzy

Spot on. Let the pup catch his first bird. It is his to do what ever he chooses.[/quote]

+1 WHAT EVER he chooses !

ezzy333 wrote:Most all good pups have plenty of desire(prey drive) that will show as the pup grows and need little reinforcement. Sometimes it takes a bird to get it to show but it is there and will show when the time is right. Try to give the pup the opportunity to find a bird and if need be put one down for it and then let nature take it's course. I have never locked wings on a bird and have never seen a need to. I am yet to have a bird beat up on a dog.

Ezzy

Yep, prey drive doesn't need to be built. As said, opportunity will bring it out.

Charlie

Never hurts to stack the deck....

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I don't want another obstacle to overcome when the pup goes to catch a bird again the second time around. Just simply a good introduction and no pigeon wings slapping on a 8 wk old pup.

Take it outside and let it chase butter fly's. If you need to build desire, you bought the wrong pup. Even a show dog from a long line of show dogs will chase a crossed wing pigeon.

I'm one old reprobate that believes in letting a pointing dog catch and HANDLE clip wing pigeons. I DO keep it separate though; I never let them catch a POINTED bird. One day I'll have them point the bird in a trap, the next retrirve hand thrown clip wings. I only combine the two on older dogs. Yes, it probably does make a dog harder to steady, but the increased drive of the dog to retrieve downed birds is well worth it.

I'm a believer in what Mo and Gibbons advocate. The training process can take a lot out of a young dog so it is important to develop the prey drive (bird crazy) when they are pups. Let them run, chase and "be a pup" that first year. If it means catching a bird or two, that's OK.

DonF wrote:Take it outside and let it chase butter fly's. If you need to build desire, you bought the wrong pup. Even a show dog from a long line of show dogs will chase a crossed wing pigeon.

Maybe so, but will it pick one up or will it eat a bowl of dog chow if offered in its place? I'm in the camp of building prey drive in a pup during the imprinting stage of development (the first 20 weeks). To me a dog needs to learn how to handle live birds to be a useful hunting companion. No better way to bring that potential out than with multiple prey contacts.

Nate

There are a couple of things you can do with pigeons to "sharpen" the dog's desire.

I have no problem with an eight or nine week old puppy mauling a lock wing pigeon, because they probably aren't going to injure the bird and even if they do...so what?? At thirteen weeks the dog is getting stronger, but it would still not be a problem in my view. As the pup gets older and stronger and more aggressive, it is not something you want to ingrain into a dog's behavior.

I do not think it is a good idea to do that too many times. Twice might be too many times for some dogs, I think.

One of my favorite things to do is to throw pigeons at puppies. In a cut down field that is safe from traffic, with the puppy out for a run, you slip a strong flying pigeon out of the game bag and let it fly, pitching it across the pup's field of view. Pup will give chase for all it is worth. Call the puppy back to you and give it a drink of water. Then when it is running about do the same thing again. About three pigeons should pretty much wear out a 3-5 month old puppy, and that is enough anyway.

As the pup gets polder and stronger, you can do the same thing from a 4 wheeler. There are a whole number of great lessons that the pup is learning from this exercise and there are almost no downside risks to the practice. Strong flying pigeons almost never land back on the ground, so unless a dog learns to climb trees, it ain't gonna ever catch one. You will find that eventually, the dog will chase the bird for a ways and then come back to you...all on its own, because it knows you have more pigeons. You have water. YOU are where the fun is at.

You can also plant birds in the field, when the dog is older, say six to eight months old, with launchers and pop the launcher before the dog scents the bird. The dog will give chase also. The greatest thing about puppies chasing pigeons is that, eventually, they will just stand there and watch the bird fly off. The dog is, at that juncture, on the verge of being steady to wing ...and you did NOTHING. The birds did it all.

That is not low pressure training... that is NO pressure training.

BTW, I agree with letting the birds home back to their overpass if it is anywhere close by. No mess, no feed bill and a steady supply any given night.

RayG

I started with a warm dead pigeon, then a few wing locked. my next dog I would do the fly away drill from the Hickox video, a field with lots of wild birds is best but stacking the deck some is never bad. Another thing I would do to stack the deck some is to throw a wing clipped pigeon onto a pond suitable for the pup to encourage swimming. Mine did ended up nuts for the water but I was concerned for a while.

Any game that promote using his nose is good too.

I am not sure if you could get too much happy off leash field time, take the pup (as endurance and size allow) to any and all of the types of hunting grounds. And remember you need to get off the path, exploring will turn into hunting.

There are a number of good books and videos out there here is a good starting point http://www.swanvalleypress.com/pages/gu ... _dogs.html

If there is a NAVHDA chapter near by it would be worth a look http://www.navhda.us/chaptmap.html , my local chapter has been a fantastic resource.

gonehuntin' wrote:I'm one old reprobate that believes in letting a pointing dog catch and HANDLE clip wing pigeons. I DO keep it separate though; I never let them catch a POINTED bird..

BINGO ! Big difference in letting a 12 week old puppy have his way with his first bird or two and allowing a dog pointing to catch and maul birds....there lies the fundamental difference.

We've been letting YOUNG pups have their way with they're first birds for 35 years and family before that.....NEVER seen it make a dog a bird eater or have to "break" them of diving in on birds because of it.....

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:

DonF wrote:Take it outside and let it chase butter fly's. If you need to build desire, you bought the wrong pup. Even a show dog from a long line of show dogs will chase a crossed wing pigeon.

Maybe so, but will it pick one up or will it eat a bowl of dog chow if offered in its place? I'm in the camp of building prey drive in a pup during the imprinting stage of development (the first 20 weeks). To me a dog needs to learn how to handle live birds to be a useful hunting companion. No better way to bring that potential out than with multiple prey contacts.

Nate

Nate, I think we may be seeing a disagreement where there is none. I guess I am only disagreeing with the wording used [building prey drive]. All I am saying is that the prey drive should be there and does not have to be built. But of course you want to bring that drive out and you do that by presenting the opportunity. I am not arguing against the use of locked or clipped wing birds or any other way that works. Also, I agree with you on bird intro at an early age.

Charlie

I think if the pup is worth training he already has the prey drive just need to wake it up & develop it,then recognize it & NOT do anything to put the fire out!!

wake up, build, develop......splitting hairs aren't we.

birddog1968 wrote:wake up, build, develop......splitting hairs aren't we.

agree. we are all born with muscles but we have to use them to get stronger. semantics

I give up.

Charlie

okay thanx guys this is a lot of good information!!!! im just asking be cause a buddy of mine was training his 9 week old english setter the other day in the woods behind his house....he had a pigeon in a launcher and let his pup come in down wind just to see what he'd do......we did not launch the bird....just wanted to se if he got excited or pointed the launcher..... my pup is 13 weeks old hes a gsp and we did throw a bird or two a week or two prior..... brought my pup in and he did seam like he was akting like he smelled somthing but just had no clue to what....when he showed these signs we would launch the bird....but he wouldent even realize there was a bird comming out of the launcher...as if the bird was never launched....he did also flash point the launcher onve to which was cool to see his first point...i have pigeons at home now and every so often i bring him by the coop on a lead and he gets soo excited so im hoping that today when i bring him to point birds in the launcher again he will have a better grasp on what hes looking for/what the smell of the pigeon is.