Perfect Finish question

[benelli]

We're hoping to get some bird work done with the dog this weekend; we're gradually working through Perfect Start/Perfect Finish, and this weekend if all goes well we should be able to start on the "whoa with birds" section. I was wondering, though, is there a way to "re-use" birds on that portion? In the video they just release the birds, but we don't have a nice supply of homing pigeons, and I really hate to buy birds just to let them fly away like that. Can we tether them somehow? Tie them onto a long piece of string and reel them back in? Maybe that's a dumb idea, I don't know ... I've never done this before (can you tell?).

[cmc274]

I can't speak for perfect finish, however the best flying birds you can buy, the kind that fly the next county are always best for dog training. I'd rather pay for more birds than have crappy flying birds. More natural, less temptation & distraction for dogs.

[RoostersMom]

Steady to wing and shot uses up a lot of birds if you do the Perfect Finish approach - which I have with all of our dogs. If you can capture feral pigeons (use the search function above) that will work best for you since you don't have homers. I've used as many as 15 birds in one session.

[4dabirds]

I use tethered birds alot. I use a scent bird and keep the launchers out of the scent cone. This way the dog has no interaction with the launcher and the baggage that may accompany it. When you tether the birds use some elastic cord at the last few feet so you do not injure the bird. I use those little compression buttons to hold the cord on the bird. They sell them in "bleep" sporting for duck decoy anchors . You can also get them at fabric stores . Make the length long enough to allow the bird to fly but not long enough to reach the dog. When you fire the blank gun the tethered bird will always come down as though you shot it. This is the picture the dog will see in real hunting.

[Maurice]

I am in the same camp as cmc and Rooster. Buy or trap birds and let them fly. Birds tethered or put to sleep are a train wreck waiting to happen, especially if you are new to bird dog training imo. Stuff happens fast and if you don't react or know what to expect you will have some problems that could set your training back.

Mo

[SanerSoft]

When I used a scent bird and launchers at a distance with tethered birds my pup (9 months) wanted to rout out the scent bird after the launches were done and she wanted to retrieve the tethered bird that kept flopping around in the distance. Her point deterioted and the only way I could have stopped her from routing out the bird was with a lot of pressure.

I stopped the drills and just started running her on wild birds (I am lucky to live where there are lots). Within a couple of weeks she figured out she couldn't catch the bird and has started to hold points longer and longer, waiting for me to flush. When I get to the point of steading the dog I will definately use homers in the launchers so she doesn't have that added tempation of wanting to retreive the bird.

[benelli]

Unfortunately trapping birds isn't an option ... we live on a military base, so everything from pigeons to greasy dumpster-diving ravens to mangy coyotes are protected.

[RayGubernat]

This may sound dumb, but I will suggest it anyway. Do you know any racing pigeon folks?

They usually have a couple of hundred birds at any one time and are always looking for ways to fly their birds to get them exercise and practice homing.

If you can convince them that all you want is for the bird to fly away home, they may consider "renting" some inexperienced birds to you, especially if your training area is within a few miles of their coop.

I have an arrangement with a local Amish farmer. They keep the pigeons for me and I "rent" them. Most of the pigeons fly back to their home coop which is about 5 miles from me, so they get to re-use the birds and I get a steady supply without having to deal with the filthy mess of keeping a coop, and make no mistake, pigeons are a filthy bird. If some of the birds do not make it back...no big deal to either of us.

I love pigeons for training but hate dealing with the mess they create and the rats they draw, etc., etc.


FWIW, I do use tethered pigeons, but only on dogs that are already steady to wing and shot. I do not use them on young dogs during the breaking process. Too many things can go wrong for me.

My use of tethered pigeons is more along the lines of "bombproofing " the dog. To have it hit the end of the tether and fall out of the sky with the gunshot is a severe temptation. My dogs(pointers) do not need to be steady to fall for competitions, since AF trials do not kill birds... but if they are indeed steady to fall, it is one more level of training that they will remain standing through. That means they will stand tall and erect all the way through flush and until I walk back and take their collar.

Yes it is a parlor trick, BUT IS SURE DO LOOK GOOD.

Sooo, unless the quail goes and flies into a tree and kills itself(which I have actually seen happen, BTW), I should not have to worry much about the dog breaking or letting down.

RayG

[Francois P vd Walt]

I had the same problem with not enough birds....
I found a lady in our town with racing pigeons I rent them 50bucks for 50 pigeons and can change my training venue in a 100km and still they get back to use again. Now I get them at half price since she needs them to practice and she has seen they all come back healthy, missing some feathers that only I and my dogs know about.

[SanerSoft]

The American Racing Pigeon Union will provide a list of racing clubs in your area. It's a good place to start when trying to locate a breeder to work with.

http://www.pigeon.org/findaclub.php

[4dabirds]

So , getting back to the actual question. As in any training method the misapplication of any method will result in a poor outcome for you or your dog. When properly done and not overdone using tethers should look to the dog as though the bird has been shot. As far as routing out the scent bird this should be no different then routing out any bird. If this is happening you are getting ahead of yourself. I am not familiar with perfect start but if it was perfect at the point you are putting your dog on a bird it should have had proper yard work first to avoid pitfalls associated with this problem. If your plan is to let the dog figure it out instead of training in a sequential manner then setbacks will be inevitable. First train the dog in yard work , have control of the dog, intro birds , build a picture in the dogs mind behaviors that are acceptable around birds before the dog is put in a position to fail. These things help you guarantee the outcome . Allowing a dog to fail is training the dog to fail.

[RayGubernat]

So , getting back to the actual question. As in any training method the misapplication of any method will result in a poor outcome for you or your dog. When properly done and not overdone using tethers should look to the dog as though the bird has been shot. As far as routing out the scent bird this should be no different then routing out any bird. If this is happening you are getting ahead of yourself. I am not familiar with perfect start but if it was perfect at the point you are putting your dog on a bird it should have had proper yard work first to avoid pitfalls associated with this problem. If your plan is to let the dog figure it out instead of training in a sequential manner then setbacks will be inevitable. First train the dog in yard work , have control of the dog, intro birds , build a picture in the dogs mind behaviors that are acceptable around birds before the dog is put in a position to fail. These things help you guarantee the outcome . Allowing a dog to fail is training the dog to fail.

All well and good...and exactly the way someone should proceed. However, when the dog continues to attempt to get the scent bird that is in a cage, or breaks to go get tethered pigeons that have been "shot" and are walking around on the ground...it becomes obvious that the dog just ain't gettin' the picture you are trying to paint for them. When a dog is not getting the picture, you either back up and go over the yardwork basics again...or if you feel the basics are sound, you modify your training tactics to suit the dog. Both ways are right and both can work.

Pointing and holding steady, to me, is...and always should be all about being between the dog and the bird. The less I interfere in that interaction, the better the dog will end up, in terms of both function and style.

A scent bird in a cage is an unnatural, phony setup. Lots of dogs do just fine with it, and that is great because it can save a ton of money for the weekend amateur trainer. Heck I use them myself. But when it don't work, for whatever reason on a particular dog...it may be time to ditch the scent bird in the cage and let them fly.

The dog has to learn that it cannot catch the bird. It has to learn that ...from the bird. It is sometimes not enough that the dog learns that you do not want it to catch the bird and is not supposed to.

RayG

[RoostersMom]

PK Clinic Image 2.jpg

There is no scent bird where this guy is in his training. The initial stages of whoa training (after he knows whoa well on the collar and lead) is the handler being a distance away and just "throwing birds" and letting them fly off. As the dog holds his whoa and handles the far off birds, the helper gets closer to the dog - at this point, the dog has no added stimulus of smelling the bird at all - that comes later. Here's a picture of one series of steady to wing and shot training (the shot and the point come later).

In this picture at the clinic, it looks like the people are all crowded together, but that's just the angle of the photo. These dogs were on "whoa" and the bird were getting closer to them (day 2 or 3 of the clinic).

[SanerSoft]

Pointing and holding steady, to me, is...and always should be all about being between the dog and the bird. The less I interfere in that interaction, the better the dog will end up, in terms of both function and style.... The dog has to learn that it cannot catch the bird. It has to learn that ...from the bird. RayG

Amen. And none of that involves yard work. Yard work is between YOU and the dog. My 10 month old will whoa in the field to a toot on the whistle and come to a rapid whistle. We practice the commands on almost every run in the field but it will be at least next summer before I start to apply any of this to the handling of birds. Her punishment for busting birds this fall will be my not shooting the bird.

[4dabirds]

[quote="RoostersMom"]

PK Clinic Image 2.jpg

There is no scent bird where this guy is in his training. The initial stages of whoa training (after he knows whoa well on the collar and lead) is the handler being a distance away and just "throwing birds" and letting them fly off. As the dog holds his whoa and handles the far off birds, the helper gets closer to the dog - at this point, the dog has no added stimulus of smelling the bird at all - that comes later. Here's a picture of one series of steady to wing and shot training (the shot and the point come later).


This is the perfect example of what I was writing about. The dog has had proper intro to the bird , and flyaway drills are putting a picture in the dogs mind that standing still for a flying bird is a behavior that is acceptable. Now weather the op needs a scent bird is contingent on the plan he is using and what point he is in the plan. Obviously if the drill requires no scent on the bird and the drill is to establish whoa in the presence of a bird, the scent bird would not be needed but the tethers could still be used. If the dog is on a check-cord and he is whoad ten yards from the bird on a 15 foot tether the dog can not get the bird. In the Hickox program to give an example, the dog is taught to whoa on a barrel. The dog is also exposed to flyaway drills. these two are then put together when the dog has been fully whoa trained he revisits the barrel , only this time with a bird. Since the dog has a great understanding of the whoa command and the barrel is a major cue it helps the dog to exhibit the behavior with no pressure. The dog hits the barrel the bird is launched . This has the dog thinking that the action of getting on the barrel created the bird. This is done with no scent , but it is done with a tethered bird. Dogs learn by association therefore standing still produces a bird. If the dog jumps off the barrel it is staked to the ground and self corrects. . Just do another drill till the dog realizes it is futile to chase and stays on the barrel. Its between the bird and the dog

[gundogguy]

We're hoping to get some bird work done with the dog this weekend; we're gradually working through Perfect Start/Perfect Finish, and this weekend if all goes well we should be able to start on the "whoa with birds" section. I was wondering, though, is there a way to "re-use" birds on that portion? In the video they just release the birds, but we don't have a nice supply of homing pigeons, and I really hate to buy birds just to let them fly away like that. Can we tether them somehow? Tie them onto a long piece of string and reel them back in? Maybe that's a dumb idea, I don't know ... I've never done this before (can you tell?).

"One has to break eggs to make an omelet" Birds are part of the equation, use the best birds you can. We are training dogs not birds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CtYVB5zrR
Alle's next session will have the bird shot for her to retrieve, birds will serve a necessary purpose all the up the training latter. Even the birds that fly away will serve a purpose in the dogs development.