Gun Intro

[diplomat019]

I got some great help on introducing gunfire to my pup. i had one more question . Could you remove some flight feathers on a quail and have the pup chase it around, while firing as they chase? Would that be a suitable way to do it? Just curious because I have a plan in mind but wanted to see if the other one would work as well? Thanks

[CDN_Cocker]

Gun intro while in pursuit of a bird is the best way to do it

[ezzy333]

I got some great help on introducing gunfire to my pup. i had one more question . Could you remove some flight feathers on a quail and have the pup chase it around, while firing as they chase? Would that be a suitable way to do it? Just curious because I have a plan in mind but wanted to see if the other one would work as well? Thanks

Not sure if it would work or not and that is enough for me to not try it. There are easy simple ways to do it and I see no need to try and discover a new way.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

After reading your previous post I am not so sure you have a good understanding of a proper intro to the gun. You seem to think you took your time but to me it sounds like you are rushing a little. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Use clipped wing pigeon, let dog chase and catch bird, fire blank gun at a hundred yards at the moment the dog catches bird. Then move progressively closer with gun. The dog should never acknowledge the gun. If the dogs shows any notice of the gun you are going too fast. After blank gun repeat working your way through the gauges 410 to 12. This can take some time over several training sessions. If done right the dog will associate the sound if the gun with getting a bird. This will keep the dog from making a negative association at a future date. Take your time.

[Del Lolo]

Gun intro while in pursuit of a bird is the best way to do it

I got some great help on introducing gunfire to my pup. i had one more question . Could you remove some flight feathers on a quail and have the pup chase it around, while firing as they chase? Would that be a suitable way to do it? Just curious because I have a plan in mind but wanted to see if the other one would work as well? Thanks

There are easy simple ways to do it and I see no need to try and discover a new way.

Ezzy

CDN : I agree
ezzy : It's not a new way -- Trainers have done this for years
diplomat : I'd say go for it.

Personally I prefer to introduce puppies (blank pistolfrom a little distance) while they're doing something enjoyable (like being latched onto mom) when they are just 4 - 5 weeks old.

[CDN_Cocker]

Not sure if it would work or not and that is enough for me to not try it. There are easy simple ways to do it and I see no need to try and discover a new way.

Ezzy

I speak from a flushing perspective but I believe most springer/cocker trainers introduce the gun while the dog is chasing a flyaway or focused on grabbing a clipped wing bird. That is how the dog learns to love the gun as it means gun = birds to the dog. Most dogs can learn to tolerate the sound of gunfire, but you want it to love the sound of it IMO

[DonF]

Throwing a clipped wing bird on the ground for a pointing dog is really creating a problem but sometimes the best way to fix a problem is create another. In your case i don't know if you have a flushing dog or pointing dog. if it's a pointing dog I wouldn't do that. Pick a method you've read about and do it. But if you have a pointing dog and throw a clipped wing down for the dog to maul while you fire a gun, what is happening? Your letting the dog do just exactly what you don't want it to do. You won't ruin a dog like that but it will have to be overcome later. if you have a flusher, go for it if you want. The flushing dog that can catch birds on the ground learns to attack the birds and flush's wild bird a lot harder. You cannot mess up a flusher like that.

But the real problem you have right now is you've been told how to do it but your starting to think on your own; you don't understand enough yet to start experimenting on your own. Learn the easy ways first and when you got that down, if you can think of something to do to make it easier or better go for it.

The overwhelming number of people on these sites use a bird to distract the dog introducing the gun. The idea is the dog learns to associate the gun fire with the bird. If you watch the Perfect video, you'll see they use a dead bird to introduce the gun. The shooter get's well away and the handler throws a dead bird for the dog to retrieve. there can be no doubt both ways work, they have a lot of people doing both successfully. But think about the difference between throwing a dead bird for the dog to retrieve and a clipped wing bird for the dog to catch and maul. You want the dog to retrieve dead birds and if a pointing dog you want it to stand live birds. Later on your gonna want the dog to chase down cripples but you do that now and you're way ahead of yourself.

pay attention to what these people are telling you, don't second guess them.

[diplomat019]

it was just a question that i had. i didnt do it that way. it just popped in my head and wanted to see what you thought...

4da birds- thanks for the help.... but i do have a good understanding on gun intro.

anyways it went great with my dog today. i had my buddy start out around 100 yards away with a 22. i used a dokken pheasant. i would toss it out and have my buddy fire a shot. we did this until he was standing next to us. my dog didnt pay any attention to the gun at all. so all in all i was very happy. i was nervous leading up to this point because this is my first gun dog but i got some great help from some of the members of the forum on what to do/not do and i couldnt be happier.

So to all the people who have given me their input and help THANK YOU!!!!

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I got some great help on introducing gunfire to my pup. i had one more question . Could you remove some flight feathers on a quail and have the pup chase it around, while firing as they chase? Would that be a suitable way to do it? Just curious because I have a plan in mind but wanted to see if the other one would work as well? Thanks

I don't remove any primary feathers on quail, but will dizzy them and toss 5-6 birds into light cover for a flushing dog. If the pup has already been introduced to birds he will eagerly find, flush and chase these quail, and try to catch them. I feel that this is an acceptable time to fire a .22 crimp multiple times. As long as the pup is engaged in flushing and chasing birds and he is a reasonable distance from you, he will have no concern for the sound of the gun. Your total focus on the dog the entire time is very important. If there is any sign of the pup "hearing" the shot. Stop shooting.

If you are talking about a pointing dog, I feel that it is best to use clip wing pigeons with no cover as has been described. I don't feel that its a good idea to encourage a pointer to root out birds from cover, and to make this association with the sound of the shot.

Nate

[RayGubernat]

I got some great help on introducing gunfire to my pup. i had one more question . Could you remove some flight feathers on a quail and have the pup chase it around, while firing as they chase? Would that be a suitable way to do it? Just curious because I have a plan in mind but wanted to see if the other one would work as well? Thanks

I don't remove any primary feathers on quail, but will dizzy them and toss 5-6 birds into light cover for a flushing dog. If the pup has already been introduced to birds he will eagerly find, flush and chase these quail, and try to catch them. I feel that this is an acceptable time to fire a .22 crimp multiple times. As long as the pup is engaged in flushing and chasing birds and he is a reasonable distance from you, he will have no concern for the sound of the gun. Your total focus on the dog the entire time is very important. If there is any sign of the pup "hearing" the shot. Stop shooting.

If you are talking about a pointing dog, I feel that it is best to use clip wing pigeons with no cover as has been described. I don't feel that its a good idea to encourage a pointer to root out birds from cover, and to make this association with the sound of the shot.

Nate

The ONLY time I would consider using clip wing [pigeons on a pointing dog, is when the puppy was VERY young and I was doing a bird intro to see what kind of desire the pup had and to bring it out.

I do not want my dogs to catch birds. Period.

I used to do gun intro a few different ways, with capguns, banging pots, etc. Since I have known better, I have always introduced gunfire when the dog was in full chase and well away from the gun like 50+yards with gun(low noise acorn crimps) pointed up and away from dog. Dog, bird and bang. That works.

RayG

[diplomat019]

ray- my dog is 4 1/2 months. would that fall in your idea of a "young dog"? he has been on birds before. holds his points. i actually posted a video of him that i took when he was on quail. in my opinion i am happy with how he finds and holds the bird....so i dont think i would wan him to chase a bird. what do you think?

[4dabirds]

Using a rubber duck for gun intro? You may as well be using a milk bottle. A rubber anything is not a live bird. The idea is to create an association in the dogs mind using what will be most distracting as well as most rewarding to the dog that the sound of a gun is directly responsible for the dog getting a bird. This association when created early negates the possibility oif the dog making a negative association with birds and guns in the future . Dogs learn all behaviors relative to cues in their environment . Throwing a bird for the dog to chase is a different act then letting a dog chase a bird it finds on the ground . The dog with proper traing will know the difference just like it knows the difference of song birds in the yard and game birds in the field. Allowing the dog to catch creates the greatest distraction as well as the greatest association. Next time you trow that rubber duck throw it hard as you can and make sure the dog is not looking.

[RayGubernat]

ray- my dog is 4 1/2 months. would that fall in your idea of a "young dog"? he has been on birds before. holds his points. i actually posted a video of him that i took when he was on quail. in my opinion i am happy with how he finds and holds the bird....so i dont think i would wan him to chase a bird. what do you think?

I would not worry about a 4 1/2 month old dog chasing birds. That is a puppy puppy to me. In fact I would be kind of concerned if it did not, given the proper incentive. I would get some good flying pigeons, get out in a nice, safe, closely mowed field and let one ride past the dog, while you pup is running around. I cannot believe a young pup will stop and stand...but if it does, I'd throw another one, right past its nose to encourage the chase.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a puppy chasing birds... and there is a whole lot that is right about it. What is bad is for a puppy, or dog do chase AND CATCH birds. If the dog learns that they can chase and chase and never catch...sooner or later, they will quit wasting energy and just stand there.

During that chasing phase, it is the perfect time to introduce gunfire because the dog is almost totally engrossed in the chase and the gun report is "background noise". the noise will not startle the dog or deter it from the chase, and later on, it will become a part of the whole experience for the dog.

If you do the chasing birds thing correctly, you have a dog that will wait for you to kill the bird, because...that way works and chasing does not.

[diplomat019]

4dabirds. stop replying to the post. you come off like a real "bleep"

[diplomat019]

the forum substituted what i wrote for "bleep"

[diplomat019]

ray. let me clarify what i meant. i meant to say that he doesn't charge in and flush birds without holding his point. after i flushed the bird he gave chase. he gets really excited and runs looking for it. but yeah. i would like to make my next step like you said. have him chase birds while the gun is being shot. thanks for the help!

[diplomat019]

4da birds. im a fellow new yorker as well. you should be helping out instead of being a wise "bleep". just cause your from long island doesnt mean you need to fill the stereotype. lol. but ill take your advice considering how well known long island is for their bird dogs.

[4dabirds]

Frankly I WAS trying to help you, but in typical New york fashion you seem to already have the answers to your own questions. On here you get the beautiful as well as the ugly new yorkers. Also you don't get to chose what gets posted ! It was just your claim that you had a good understanding of gun intro and then stated you were using a dokken pheasant in the process. This made it obvious to me that you do not understand the process and that is why I wasted my time trying to help you. Please forgive me for my lapse of judgment while picking the people that I try to help. It will certainly not happen again.

[RoostersMom]

it was just a question that i had. i didnt do it that way. it just popped in my head and wanted to see what you thought...

4da birds- thanks for the help.... but i do have a good understanding on gun intro.

anyways it went great with my dog today. i had my buddy start out around 100 yards away with a 22. i used a dokken pheasant. i would toss it out and have my buddy fire a shot. we did this until he was standing next to us. my dog didnt pay any attention to the gun at all. so all in all i was very happy. i was nervous leading up to this point because this is my first gun dog but i got some great help from some of the members of the forum on what to do/not do and i couldnt be happier.

So to all the people who have given me their input and help THANK YOU!!!!

I've never seen a dog gun "broke" without a dead or live bird. I wouldn't think of using a dummy (that's what a dokken essentially is) for gun breaking. That is a dummy - used for retriever training - not gun association. Gunshot = dead bird. You need to make that association. It is not about teaching the dog to retrieve, it's not about teaching the dog to ignore the gunshot - it is about teaching the dog that a gunshot = dead bird. You need to strive to make that association. Just use a dead frozen bird - you'll need several to get this done correctly - one session is not all it takes. You want this association firmly in the dog's head. The Perfect Start DVD shows this method very well indeed.

[diplomat019]

i wouldnt go as far as to imply im an ugly new yorker. if you re-read your comments you come off as a know it all. everyone else was really cool and helpful. but if i can dish it i can take it as well. but outside of some of your comments you did give some good info....

that being said, for the first time intro to gunfire, what is wrong with playing fetch while firing a gun? i was associating having fun and retrieving with the sound of a gun. i dont plan on making this my only method. yes, i will have an actual bird next time. what you all have said about having live birds is what was part of my plan. i used the dokken to simulate a bird dropping as the gun was fired. am i right or wrong in what i did?

[ruffbritt4]

i wouldnt go as far as to imply im an ugly new yorker. if you re-read your comments you come off as a know it all. everyone else was really cool and helpful. but if i can dish it i can take it as well. but outside of some of your comments you did give some good info....

that being said, for the first time intro to gunfire, what is wrong with playing fetch while firing a gun? i was associating having fun and retrieving with the sound of a gun. i dont plan on making this my only method. yes, i will have an actual bird next time. what you all have said about having live birds is what was part of my plan. i used the dokken to simulate a bird dropping as the gun was fired. am i right or wrong in what i did?

You will be fine if you don't continue using the dummy.

[Pontbeck]

i wouldnt go as far as to imply im an ugly new yorker. if you re-read your comments you come off as a know it all. everyone else was really cool and helpful. but if i can dish it i can take it as well. but outside of some of your comments you did give some good info....

that being said, for the first time intro to gunfire, what is wrong with playing fetch while firing a gun? i was associating having fun and retrieving with the sound of a gun. i dont plan on making this my only method. yes, i will have an actual bird next time. what you all have said about having live birds is what was part of my plan. i used the dokken to simulate a bird dropping as the gun was fired. am i right or wrong in what i did?

That's exactly how we introduce gun shot on this side of the pond. I have a friend shooting a 12 gauge around 150 / 200 yds away while I throw retrieves. The gun comes closer until eventually 20/ 30 yds away. It's the association of gunfire and something exciting and pleasurable that your trying to get over to the dog.

[4dabirds]

Scientifically speaking , dogs learn by association. So you are not totally wrong. The issue at hand is , you are introducing a dog to a stimulus that can potentially ruin the dog for life. Making the right association is of great importance. The bird being the most distracting, especially a live flapping bird will put the dog in a state of mind where the gun shot becomes subliminal. The whole idea in this is to attach the shot to the bird without the dog ever really noticing it. It has to be associated with something solid not attached to a sence of being. Attaching the shot to the bird at an early stage in a positive way keeps the dog from making a negative association with the shot later on. This can happen to dogs when they are not getting the association and at a future date they are exposed to multiple shots or shots in a moe confined space such as in a wooded area where the cloud cover and low barometric pressure makes the shot seem louder. So the rubber duck may not have hurt you but IMO it is a waste of time and could have caused a problem. When you are doing this with live birds be sure to keep it at a great distance and watch the dog carefully for any signs that it acknowledged the bird. If so back off.

[CDN_Cocker]

That was amazing... ask for help then bash someone when they give it to you. Good luck with the pup.

[diplomat019]

4dabird- isnt what you described what i said i wanted to do in my original post? removing some flight feathers and have the pup give chase, and while this is happening firing a shot. that what i was asking if i could do. maybe i didnt write it the right way?

cocker-thanks for the well wishes with the pup!

[4dabirds]

As for the original question . Throwing the quail would be fine. Allowing the dog to find and chase is problematic. Pigeons are cheaper and I think will withstand the abuse a little longer. I thought understanding the big picture was really where you needed help.

[diplomat019]

got ya. i see what your saying. apologies from my way from taking your comments the wrong way. next burger is on me at all american in massepequa.

[4dabirds]

Sounds great. Not bad navigation for a guy from dutchess county

[diplomat019]

was living in queens for the last few years cause i work in the city. whenever i would go crabbing in LI i would stop there. great place