Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

[Thornapple]

I am going to make an attempt here to bring up a subject that might require some thought, and I am sure some conversation! Does anyone know a proven technique that teaches a dog obedience that does not included Force Fetch or clicker training?

First I should state I am an ardent Force Fetch trainer and am very disciplined at it. So my discussion here is not about the attributes, or not, of force fetch training. What it involves is an alternative.

I write this because there are lots (more than there are bird hunters) of folks out there that have hunting dogs that would like to train their hunting dogs to hunt, even if they do not hunt themselves, or some might given the exposure. It in fact is the largest population of owners of hunting dogs in the United States and Canada! Getting a hunting dog that is an agility, confirmation, or pet out to learn to hunt serves a lot of good for those us that do hunt. It keeps the gene pool of good hunting dogs strong, and with you are aware of it or not, this is a growing and a very serious problem for we bird hunters; no matter what breed of dog you own! The majority of these hunting dog owners do not want to force fetch their dogs. I am not like many not caring about this group, willing to just write them off, or consider them "not worthy of time or effort". They have expressed to me and many the fact they have a serious problem with Force Fetch, and even clicker training. Let me go further.

The biggest impediment for those that do not hunt to training their dogs to hunt is the method commonly used to teach obedience. Notice i did not say, " FORCE FETCH." Force fetch for you folks that think it is a method to teach a dog to retrieve and bring to hand your shot bird is not correct. it is one of the bye products, not the sole purpose. Force fetch was developed and is practiced by all experienced and professional trainers for one thing and one thing only, to teach obedience in the field or water. Also do not confuse whoa, come, etc. with what I just wrote. I write this because there is a lot of misunderstanding as to what Force fetch is for in training a retriever, pointer, or versatile dog.

Ok, that being said, have any of you practiced successfully or know of a technique that gets the dog to perform in the field or water without hesitation your commands? This requires obedience. yes, it may require a longer more involved training. So let's deal with that, but do you know of any? I am not referring to introduction to feathers and dead birds, I am speaking of a dog learning that if a command is given it will perform under all safe conditions. I realize there are some of you who do not want or do not wish to be as disciplined in training your dogs, that is fine. I am addressing those that study and or have practiced a lot of bird dog training.
Any suggestions of alternative methods?
Thornapple

[Meller]

Are you talking retrieving or obedience training?
Not sure of your question.

[Thornapple]

Meller, I just saw your post. In my initial question I attempted to be clear that I was seeking alternate ideas in this forum ideas to train for obedience. I wrote,
"

Force fetch for you folks that think it is a method to teach a dog to retrieve and bring to hand your shot bird is not correct. it is one of the bye products, not the sole purpose. Force fetch was developed and is practiced by experienced and professional trainers for one thing and one thing only, to teach obedience in the field or water. Also do not confuse whoa, come, etc. with what I just wrote. I write this because there is a lot of misunderstanding as to what Force fetch is for in training a retriever, pointer, or versatile dog."

We can talk more later as I have to get off to work. Remember, my question deals with whether there is an alternative to Force Fetch (or clicker training) for pointing or versatile dogs that those on the Forum recommend? The reasons why I asked are in the initial and subsequent comments.
Best, Thornapple