Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

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crackerd
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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by crackerd » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:29 pm

polmaise wrote:I thought the topic was ''alternative to Force Fetch and clicker training''?, rather than a defence or recommendation of either?
Robt., the gentleman who "premiered" posting directly above fellow truthteller gonehuntin' can substantiate away with bull's-eye accuracy regardless of "defence or recommendation" - I'll say again, this thread and the other about "a bold dog underfoot" seem to be seeking validation for (or equivocating from) somebody who's terribly misled himself or been misled on how obedience and force fetch are imparted to gundogs - and why - and moreover misunderstood the qualities and traits of the HPR breed he's working with, to boot. C'mon, cougars or brindle coyotes, anyone?...

MG

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Chukar12
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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:20 pm

Yeah...I am trying to figure something out here...
We are not discussing the training of a "hunting" dog, rather we are discussing training a sporting dog for obedience? And the suggestion is that there are no alternatives to force fetch or clicker training?
Every Petsmart, Petco, 4H Club, has programs...most communities have AKC clinics, private agility facilities with trainers, feed stores, so on and so forth, you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting a venue to obedience train your dog.

Secondly, these non hunting owners are keeping the breed pool strong...say what? How in the world do we know or even suspect that?

Why am I typing.....?

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Thornapple » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:41 am

Polmaise,
Dr. William James early in the 19th century wrote of a concept he is credited to understand called, "Stream of Conscious Thought." We in the States practice this a lot, if you have not noticed particularly in open forums. I guess it is our contrarian method of sharing ideas if even 180 degrees off the subject at times. Somehow it works if even we need to take the most round about path to achieve our objectives. Just look at our politics as an example.
Yes, you are correct. However with all the comments I have learned a lot and I hope others have as well. Like most I am willing to challenge convention, not accept what I am told (post military service), and question constantly. Some do not like this and are upset that their established ideas they hold dear and sacred are challenged (history is full of this!), but at my age you can guess how much i care! As I stated elsewhere, I only started learning after I learned everything. :)
I agree the FF works well for dogs, but some dogs not all, and in varying degrees depending on the individual dog. A German Shorthair Pointer can receive a lot of pressure, but then it would be a huge mistake to think that all GSHPs are the same and can be handled or treated equally. It is not the case!
I will repeat again the reason for my question which is not to challenge FF or the clicker. It works for many, such as myself, but not all. Why would those not interested in using FF apply it if it works, as someone asked? The answer is simple, what works for you may not work for someone else. It is as simple as that. And those that choose not to use it are a larger group that own hunting dogs than do. It is my goal, if I can, to try to come to grips with this and get more of those that do not train their hunting dogs out in the field, pointing dogs, retrieving birds, and both handler and dog have a good time. The consequence of this benefits everyone, as the breeds do not sit on couches, lie around, go fallow, but do what they are bred to do. Is this altruistic, you are "bleep" right! However if i get 100 off their couches and into the fields training then I will have paid forward for all the wonderful birds I have shot and hunted with the most wonderful four legged pals anyone would want. If i accomplish this then i can go into the woods with my dog and die a very happy man.
In the interim old and new ideas are greatly appreciated.
Thornapple

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Winchey
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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Winchey » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:11 am

You have said that several times.

I have been baffled the entire thread, much as Chuckar seems to be. I see probably close to 100 different bird dogs and a few retrievers a year and virtually none of them have been FF'd or heard a clicker?

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by polmaise » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:26 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Thank God no one asked what we did before the ecollar. :evil:
Probably what a lot do over here ! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by A2Brit » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:19 pm

4 years ago I met up with a wonderfull woman who had 3 Brit show dogs. 3 years ago, we got curious about their hunting abilities. I have hunted grouse in Michigan for 45 years, but never over a dog. As a fact, when I was younger...I WAS the dog! Without any knowledge on training hunting dogs, I took the 3 year old male to a professional trrainer for an evaluation. That dog hunted like a banshee! GREAT nose, and would retieve naturally to about 10 feet, then drop the bird. NOTHING we tried would get him to reliably retrieve to hand....and he would fetch nothing BUT birds..not bumpers, toys..NOTHING!!
I made an appointment with an Obedience Trainer, and she gave me a great suggestion. The boy is fed twice a day, and each time he eats he must Whoa...retrieve to directly in front of me...hold while I get his food and water ready...place the object in my hand when I tell him "Give"...and stay steady until I tell him "Release". It was started by sitting in front of him with a wooden dumbel, and just working on getting him to "Take It". After forcing him to take the dumbell a few times, and rewarding with a treat, he was very willing to take it out of my hand. This continued with an extended arm, then with the dumbell on the floor directly in front of him...and finally thru the whole process. If he dropped the dumbell, there was no treat or dinner. It was placed back in his mouth, his head was held up by placing a hand under his chin, and he was petted while I told him "Good Hold". I then took the dumbell, and we started the whole retrieve process over.
It took about 3 months of this, twice a day. Finally the light clicked on and it became his norm. THEN I started replacing the dumbell with other items to simulate differnt textures (like real birds). I now use anything that happens to be on the kitchen counter..empty pop bottles..dish rags..whatever! The worst was a thin walled bottled water bottle..the kind that krinkles when its empty. That took about 2 days to get reliable. At this time he has 2 legs of his AKC Master Hunter title...and his retrieve is phenominal! Last winter I started training the younger bitch she has. This dog is at the extreme small end of the breed standard, but that doesnt stop her at all. With the knowledge I gained from taking the boy to a trainer (as opposed to sending him off-where I would learn nothing), I have the bitch retrieving at the same level. She absolutely HATED having to "fetch" for her food, but again the light came on after a few months. She now gets very excited when I have her fetch before feeding her, and it transfered directly into the field. She is bold in her retrieve, and had brought back a half dozen crippled pheasant roosters without a qualm. She has been SO much easier to train than the boy! 4 passes on her Junior tests, then on her first Senior try late last spring she went haywire...ran around chasing birds and caught one...delivering it directly to hand..og my GF in the Gallery. A summers work corrected all those problems...She passed her first Senior test this fall with all 8s and 9s...with the judges telling me I was wasting my time in the Senior tests with her.
Anyway, I learned a method of getting a reliable retrieve without force training. It also helped build the bond between us, because it was all positive, and I was the GOD that was giving them food for the correct behavior. :D My only issue now is the bitch honors on sight, but the male blinks most of the time. I think it was because he hadn't hunted with other dogs until he was 5 years old. Any ideas on how I can get HIM to honor reliably?

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Thornapple » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:44 am

A2Brit,
Regarding training for honor in an upland dog.
I can only share what worked for one of my dogs that also did not honor. I went back to basics on whoa. I found that I had slipped in time with discipline so I started again with whoa at the front door until I and or everyone exited. I then released with a tap and "Free" or "Heel". The same thing walking either free or at heel. I whoa for no apparent reason walk away and if the dog moves I pick it up and place it back to the whoa position.
Then I take silhouettes of a pointing dogs I made and painted out of plywood (3) that have a base so they look like real dogs from a distance. I hide them in tall grass or around corners, etc. As the silhouette is identified I whoa. By this time the dog clearly understands what is expected. Of course the test is to take another dog with a live bird that I tether, a pigeon in this case, and bring the dog around to the pointing dog, it worked! I am sure there are many methods but I found this one in particular was easy and solved the problem.
Thornapple

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:28 pm

I may be somewhat like A2Brit in that I trained my pointer to retriev by shaping and backchaining , not FF. I did use a clicker to help as a marker, but when I forget it, I use "yes" as the marker and it works fine too.

I do use an e-collar virtually every day with my dog, primarily for long-distance recalls and changes of direction. I stopped FF training, because frankly I felt I was too inexperienced as a trainer to do a good job of it. The e-collar, when I do use it, I usually use on low constant stim, so there are elements of positive reinforcement in the way it's used. Having googled the issue a bit, there's the NePoPo concept articulated by a ring sport trainer, http://www.dogsport.be/over-bart-bellon.aspx , which seems similar in some ways to some field training.

As far as non-clicker training methods that don't use aversives, there's the old pointer method supposedly used in high-bird count western areas, namely exposing your dog to lots of birds when it's young if you live in an area where you can do that, and letting the dog figure out it can't catch the birds and begin to settle down. Many public parks have pigeons in open areas that possibly can replicate some that, though generally the dog can see these birds, and leash laws and other issues make taking advantage of this difficult?

As far as where my dog's retrieve is, without FF he'll retrieve single objects out to about 200 yards, and will go into water to retrieve though in general he otherwise doesn't swim voluntarily. I've hunted with FF'd GSPs, and my dog is not as consistent as them. My kids aren't always consistent, either, so it's entirely possible that a better trainer would have done much better.

With K9 Nosework growing in popularity as a sport, I can see some of the same people being attracted to some sort of hunt simulation, possibly using something like Dokken dummies in place of birds. Some of the dogs used in agility are high-drive, so it could be possible to help hunting breeds by attracting the agility/NOSework crowd to bird-focused training of some sort. By "help" a breed I mean simply maintain a good gene pool of dogs suitable for hunting both physically and mentally.

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
polmaise wrote:I thought the topic was ''alternative to Force Fetch and clicker training''?, rather than a defence or recommendation of either?
Doh!..stupid me!
Thought this good thread was going somewhere?....obviously not.
I'm an old guy and I've trained them about every way you can. Before ff, you simply taught them a force hold. For a couple of years you simply shoved whatever it was the dog dropped back in it's mouth and made him hold it a while. That is a very slow and frustrating way to get a dog to retrieve and it still left us without an organized way to make the pooch go.

I still don't train with a clicker but I sure do tell the dog "good dog" a lot. I like positive reinforcement to come from me and not an impersonal mechanical aid.
Thank God no one asked what we did before the ecollar. :evil:
I hear you , but the reason for the "mechanical aid" is that our voices are not always consistent in tone and volume.. We think they are but..............................Clicker is a great aid for training a pup to live acceptably in the house.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:48 am

Sharon wrote: I hear you , but the reason for the "mechanical aid" is that our voices are not always consistent in tone and volume.. We think they are but..............................Clicker is a great aid for training a pup to live acceptably in the house.
I've videotaped myself training to see what I'm actually doing, and it's amazing how much my tone and volume changes.

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Re: Alternative to Force Fetch and Clicker training?

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:54 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Thornapple wrote:


Trekmoor, I am not familiar with the British method. I will do as you suggested, purchase some books on English training techniques. However my experience bird hunting in Scotland and in England suggests that the objectives and style of hunting might be different. I would be curious if you would be kind enough to write and briefly elaborate specifically what they are.

Thornapple

I will try to answer but a decent answer would need about a books worth of writing ! I cannot do as you request and "briefly elaborate specifically what they are." First I would say that very few British trainers follow any definite "programme." Reading on this forum that there were such things as "programmes" came as a bit of a surprise to me ! :lol: Along with most others I make up my own programmes as I go along to deal with the individual dog. I follow nobody else's individual ideas in their entirety for I am an individual too and so is every dog I try to train.

The main difference between spaniel work and pointing dog work is that spaniels miss out the point prior to the flush. This means that the training that would be needed to have a dog hold it's point prior to being commanded to flush is not required for a spaniel. Almost every pointing dog in Britain and on the Continent is required to flush on command. It is easy enough to teach and we think it has advantages over the U.S. system...... the dog knows where the bird it is pointing is and the dog can do all the battering through cover to put the bird into the air while the hunter only has to stand there ready to shoot ......and to control the likelihood that the dog will try to run-in following the flush and shot and fall of the bird.

I control this in several ways. [a] I train my dogs to sit to flush when training with no gun. The dogs are trained to sit to whistle as the bird flushes until the dog begins to anticipate that whistle being blown and sits because a bird just got up in front of it. The dog is trained to sit to shot as a completely separate exercise and then the shot is fired when a bird is flushed. [c] The dog is taught to sit to the sight of a buck or dummy falling from the air as it runs about hunting or just out enjoying itself.

Properly taught this means that the dog has had a total of 3 sit commands every time a bird is shot with each "command" backing up the previous one. Both the whistle and the handlers voice become completely superfluous but could be held in reserve should anything go wrong.

To all this I add "breaking up the sequence." By that I mean that when the dog has flushed a bird and the bird has been shot I do not always send the dog for it, not right away anyway. I take out and light a cigar and have a good few puffs on it before I send the dog which will have, by now, relaxed a bit from it's tensed up muscles sit/stay pose. Or I pick up the bird myself or I have someone elses dog pick the bird or I send another of my own dogs for the bird while ensuring the dog that flushed the bird remains sitting.
Sometimes I break up the sequence the dog expects by moving to it and then commanding it to walk to heel away from the fallen bird.

These steadiness training things following a flush work equally well for spaniels or even for a lab that has seen a bird flush while being walked to heel. I can only speak for myself about these things. Other British trainers train in different ways. "My way"....I won't call it a "programme" :lol: has worked well for me and not once has any dog of mines, either Labrador or HPR (Versatile) ever ran-in during a trial. It works for me so I keep on doing it.

Bill T.


Bill these methods are as I was taught ( although not the flush). Use the action of the bird to Que the response we have instilled and desire. Use the gun to mean steady or whoa. etc. Then I institute the E collar to reinforce those commands at distance or out of view and of course starting close. Same with retrieving. Teaching the commands, the dogs name for release, the touch of the dog or the voice, to release. Also, making the dog wait for the correct que to retrieve. Introducing false or other names contact etc.

Not to side track the OP question or discussion.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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