Force to pile for a pointing dog

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Tooling
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Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Forgive my ignorance but why for a pointing dog? Is it just for further reinforcement/understanding and control as part of a comprehensive FF program or is there a practical reason for it that I can't think of in the field?

That is where me and pup are at as of about a week ago and he got it instantly...in fact I had to do things in order to slip him up going for the second bumper just so I could have an opportunity to correct him and make him understand....but why? I can toss a bumper into a relatively easy place for him to find it and he'll search it up and bring it to me...all in "fun time" after FF of course but isn't THAT more practical to formalize?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by DonF » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:00 pm

I only hear guy that train retriever's talk about that. Must serve some purpose but i haven't a clue what it is. I do work on multiple falls just in case I ever shoot another double. I also sort of work on giving them a line. they are not great at it but they are not all that bad either. By retriever standards, my dogs s*ck!
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:07 pm

I hear ya'.

I definitely do not want to short-circuit the training at all but heck if I can send pup into an area where he did not mark the drop and have him return the item having searched it out..isn't that the real deal? That's not even with the luxury of a smelly bird either so I would have to believe if I can get him understanding that reliably than heck, a real bird should be a cakewalk. That said, I am by no means trying to reinvent the wheel here..just curious :?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:19 pm

I have never "forced a dog to pile." I am not even sure what it means. If it means sending a dog into a smallish area for multiple retrieves that it has to hunt for, then yes, I do a bit of that but I never send a dog to a pile of dummies(bumpers.) Maybe I have been missing out on a useful bit of retrieve training for donkeys years ?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:10 pm

It's done the same as a retriever. If your a NAVHDA guy you should give some thought to force to water also. Force to pile then to water should be last two steps in FF.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:17 pm

Never FF a dog in my life never had to!! 8)

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:07 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Never FF a dog in my life never had to!! 8)
Not even Lil huh? hmmm..

He started out fetching natural in the field if I knocked the bird out of the sky. I would praise him up big time for doing so plus let him carry his bird etc. sometimes but then in the yard he would just run and play with no intent of bringing me the object although he would recall which I was more concerned with at that point. At that age I didn't want to hack on him too much and did not want to get into a situation where I took fun items from him encouraging/creating possessiveness. Field work evolved into his running to the bird flat out, picking it up seemingly to make sure it's dead, looking at me, dropping the bird, and proceeding to hunt for another...this dog lives to find and point birds. I put alot of work in/out of the yard to reverse this to no avail. From that point I just waited for the right timing to really begin FF once I felt his maturity was there. He's 16 mos and we've been at it for I guess about 4/5 weeks. I waited this long despite being encouraged to do it at 8/9 mos. because at that age he was just too young and I really think it would have taken some style and enthusiasm out of him had I pressured him that hard at that point. Trust me that is not to say he was not required to be obedient etc...just not pressured to fetch and not adamantly/highly pressured around birds. But here I am at the pile and have every intention of completing the program but am just curious about the practicality. I couldn't "stop" now and have a reliable fetch w/out more work so this is not trying to "hurry" the process but rather trying to understand the grand scheme.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:09 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:It's done the same as a retriever. If your a NAVHDA guy you should give some thought to force to water also. Force to pile then to water should be last two steps in FF.
Right on.

MG

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:12 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I have never "forced a dog to pile." I am not even sure what it means. If it means sending a dog into a smallish area for multiple retrieves that it has to hunt for, then yes, I do a bit of that but I never send a dog to a pile of dummies(bumpers.) Maybe I have been missing out on a useful bit of retrieve training for donkeys years ?
Bill, you ain't been missing out on something you don't know you're missing in the first place.

Force to pile only "forces" the dog to work through pressure - and also gets the dog in the habit of going as sent, i.e., straight lines for blinds and, yes, for marks - whether single-marked retrieve or multiples - through hazards land or water.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:27 pm

Thanks Mike, it wouldn't work for me then since I don't teach F.F. ?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:33 pm

Yeah, you can do pile work without force, even without an e-collar. But what needs clarifying on the "force" is, it's applied - mildly via the e-collar - when the dog's already moving toward the pile. The command sequence is "Back!" - nick - "Back!," it's not continuous nor heavy stimulation, but compulsion training. The dog's going to be in motion with that first "Back!" command - a step or two in comes the nick, another step or two by the dog the second "Back!" is given. You may do this sequence when the dog's well en route to the pile too - timing, not amperage, is everything in force to pile.

Force fetch is a cornerstone of the whole shebang when it comes to having a (precision) handling retriever or gundog.

What the bloody h*ll are you doing up at 3 a.m. over there, anyhow?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Coveyrise64 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:50 pm

crackerd wrote:Yeah, you can do pile work without force, even without an e-collar. But what needs clarifying on the "force" is, it's applied - mildly via the e-collar - when the dog's already moving toward the pile. The command sequence is "Back!" - nick - "Back!," it's not continuous nor heavy stimulation, but compulsion training. The dog's going to be in motion with that first "Back!" command - a step or two in comes the nick, another step or two by the dog the second "Back!" is given. You may do this sequence when the dog's well en route to the pile too - timing, not amperage, is everything in force to pile.

Force fetch is a cornerstone of the whole shebang when it comes to having a (precision) handling retriever or gundog.

What the bloody h*ll are you doing up at 3 a.m. over there, anyhow?

MG
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:36 pm

Just to be clear...pup and I are only at the three bumper pile that is straight ahead of him. As mentioned he picked them up in sequence consistently and immediately although a little meandering at first. That progressed quickly and his tail is north while his speed/enthusiasm is there. I began by nicking him mildly but really don't have to do so much at this point outside of times he decides he wants to swing wide or if I can see he would "rather" not do it by getting his mouth on the dummy and looking at me before raising his head because he has a case of the puppies/testing me on that particular day. I have several bumpers of differing colors..the Avery ones. The white ones are softer than the black/white ones and he "prefers" the black/white ones for some reason. When I discovered this early on I mixed it up and did not let up until he was consistent regardless of dummy consistency...this is how I tripped him into making a mistake. At first I used the white ones only and varied the distance from one to the next starting out at about 4 ft. gaps...he aced that so I set them at 1 ft. gaps...he aced that so I set them at 10+ ft. gaps and he aced that. I then started him out from a greater distance from the bumpers progressively beginning at approximately 10 yds out to about 50/60...he aced that. I literally did not have to correct him once so far as sequence during 5/6 sessions. I then set him up and put a white-black/white-white out and sure enough..he went straight to the black/white first so it will take a day or two to hone that in which I really don't believe will be a problem. The next trick up my sleeve will be to place a Dokken dummy as number two and work through that and will finally use a frozen bird as number two to get that worked out. Every couple of days I set him on the table and take him through the entire sequence up through his current level and once I bring the Dokken and the frozen bird into the mix that is what will happen before every session until he is undoubtedly clear on the subject. I am in no hurry with this pup but on the same token have no intention of dragging things out either. Bringing those other items into the deal is the only way I can think of outside of repetition to create an instance/opportunity for correction to ensure he thoroughly understands.

After reviewing my post I think it may be a good idea to forego any real birds frozen or fresh until later in the process to make that transition once pile is complete.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:04 am

MG ....I'm up late coz I can't get to sleep. :x

While I don't train "force to pile" or use e-collars I do use a form of your "back command" when retrieve training. I do this mainly when training memory retrieves of more than about 70 yards. I call "Out !" ...."Out!" every 2-4 seconds as the dog passes about 50 yards in distance, doing this excites my dogs and makes them go further with no deviation. It might also be encouraging a slight increase in the dogs speed ? I always smile watching my cockers trying to go faster than their already break-neck pace ! I am training for raw enthusiasm which helps give determination and which can encourage a dog to keep it's straight outrun.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:29 am

Tooling wrote:Forgive my ignorance but why for a pointing dog? Is it just for further reinforcement/understanding and control as part of a comprehensive FF program or is there a practical reason for it that I can't think of in the field?

That is where me and pup are at as of about a week ago and he got it instantly...in fact I had to do things in order to slip him up going for the second bumper just so I could have an opportunity to correct him and make him understand....but why? I can toss a bumper into a relatively easy place for him to find it and he'll search it up and bring it to me...all in "fun time" after FF of course but isn't THAT more practical to formalize?
Tooling wrote:I began by nicking him mildly but really don't have to do so much at this point outside of times he decides he wants to swing wide or if I can see he would "rather" not do it by getting his mouth on the dummy and looking at me before raising his head because he has a case of the puppies/testing me on that particular day.
Tooling, can't say I get your motivation for this approach, but what you're doing is not force to pile in any sense I've heard of. You don't "nick" the dog for "swinging wide" - again if you want to try FTP, best to go into it with an understanding of why it's done, and that's NOT as part of force fetch, but in the aftermath of it as a progression to having a handling gundog.

Bill, sorry to hear about Morpheus not descending on you. Maybe you've been contemplating Bettie Town, RIP: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituar ... -Town.html - did you know her?

MG

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:56 am

I can't really say I knew her Mike but I did meet her a couple of times while spectating at pointer/setter trials on the grouse moors. I always had a lot of time and a lot of respect for what I then called the "old timers." Most of them talked a lot of sense and were very practical gundog people who could help you a lot .....if you wanted to listen to them. I learned far more from the old timers than I ever learned from books. Many of them were very blunt when they thought you were wrong ....they'd never heard of political correctness ! :lol: One crusty old "A" Panel retriever judge asked me as I handled my lab in a trial if I was, " Some kind of f-ing idiot !" :lol:
He was right, I was handling stupidly and unnecessarily. If you could take that sort of direct criticism and then come back for more of the same the old timers did their very best to help you.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Waterdogs1 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:59 am

I am force fetching my Gsp now and am toying with the idea of teaching her to handle or attempt to do so. She is a hard charging retriever land and water. Will see if things slow down this fall and winter that might be a project. Force to pile is just one step in many to get a dog to run those long blind retrieves. Pretty essential for retriever work not so much for pointing dogs unless you are going to teach them to handle.
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:02 am

crackerd wrote: Tooling, can't say I get your motivation for this approach, but what you're doing is not force to pile in any sense I've heard of. You don't "nick" the dog for "swinging wide" - again if you want to try FTP, best to go into it with an understanding of why it's done, and that's NOT as part of force fetch, but in the aftermath of it as a progression to having a handling gundog.

MG
This is the progressive step toward the full pile as I understand it as it is the next step highlighted in Evans program following fetch no fetch. I am guessing it is a basic primer to make the dog understand before taking him into the 9 pile etc. in order to minimize confusion for the dog. And you are correct, I am trying to understand it in its totality hence my question. My take away from reading through the posts is that it is designed to teach the dog a hurried fetch out and back to ensure no meandering/distraction from the objective. I have him corded up and ready to pull him off of the second bumper and back onto the first as detailed in the video but he simply did not go to the second bumper at the onset but rather took the bumpers in the proper sequence right out of the gate consistently. This is why I felt I had to trip him up a bit and tempt him further with a second bumper that I predicted he would go for first if present.

As you picked up on, yes, I did nick him a bit once we were working at the onset as I took him off cord because he was doing it consistent and I kept pushing that envelope to see where he would fail. He did not fail but would swing wide because he was "deciding" he would rather not go to the bumper. A momentary nick (low 3) set him right back on course and straight to the objective in a hurry and then a hurried return to me. Now that I've tripped him up using a bumper he would "rather" pick up first its back to the CC and no stim. Before I even let my dog approach a pile of nine bumpers I want him to have at least some concept of sequence lest I throw him into something he could hardly understand.

Feel free to set me straight the "old-timey" way :)

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:39 am

Tooling wrote:I did nick him a bit once we were working at the onset as I took him off cord because he was doing it consistent and I kept pushing that envelope to see where he would fail. He did not fail but would swing wide because he was "deciding" he would rather not go to the bumper. A momentary nick (low 3) set him right back on course and straight to the objective in a hurry and then a hurried return to me. Now that I've tripped him up using a bumper he would "rather" pick up first its back to the CC and no stim. Before I even let my dog approach a pile of nine bumpers I want him to have at least some concept of sequence lest I throw him into something he could hardly understand.
Interesting, the aim for failure ("pushing the envelope") and the dog's "avoidance" in going for the pile. Particularly the avoidance of a dog running past a bumper or running wide of a pile - Evan, have you seen this?, and if so please address it because it must happen on occasion with a dog that's been hurried through force fetch.

Walking fetch - maybe a good idea to read up on it - would have been the progression for cleaning up this avoidance/refusal, with a dog on a lead and picking up a bumper (or being commanded to leave it) at 4-5 yard intervals, not running 40-50 yards before a "correction" is made with an e-collar. But I understand a little better what you're trying to do, and am sure Evan can advise on specifics.

Good luck,

MG

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:54 am

crackerd wrote:
Tooling wrote:I did nick him a bit once we were working at the onset as I took him off cord because he was doing it consistent and I kept pushing that envelope to see where he would fail. He did not fail but would swing wide because he was "deciding" he would rather not go to the bumper. A momentary nick (low 3) set him right back on course and straight to the objective in a hurry and then a hurried return to me. Now that I've tripped him up using a bumper he would "rather" pick up first its back to the CC and no stim. Before I even let my dog approach a pile of nine bumpers I want him to have at least some concept of sequence lest I throw him into something he could hardly understand.
Interesting, the aim for failure ("pushing the envelope") and the dog's "avoidance" in going for the pile. Particularly the avoidance of a dog running past a bumper or running wide of a pile - Evan, have you seen this?, and if so please address it because it must happen on occasion with a dog that's been hurried through force fetch.

Walking fetch - maybe a good idea to read up on it - would have been the progression for cleaning up this avoidance/refusal, with a dog on a lead and picking up a bumper (or being commanded to leave it) at 4-5 yard intervals, not running 40-50 yards before a "correction" is made with an e-collar. But I understand a little better what you're trying to do, and am sure Evan can advise on specifics.

Good luck,

MG
Good point..I most definitely went through walking fetch with him and it really didn't take much for him to pick up on that consistently so we moved forward. As I had eluded to I do periodically take pup through all stages to begin a session but perhaps I need to spend a little more time with the walking fetch/fetch no fetch. That said, geez if he's doing it consistently and happily what the heck do I do to "up the ante" to assure he's ready for the next step? I don't think it would be appropriate to zap him harder just to prove a point to him. I suppose I could put him in more social and distracting situations while enforcing it..

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:57 pm

Tooling wrote:...in fact I had to do things in order to slip him up going for the second bumper just so I could have an opportunity to correct him and make him understand....?
I took such exception to this brutal act that I started a thread on.

I am comfortable the OP did not mean to be cruel.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:07 pm

Neil wrote:
Tooling wrote:...in fact I had to do things in order to slip him up going for the second bumper just so I could have an opportunity to correct him and make him understand....?
I took such exception to this brutal act that I started a thread on.

I am comfortable the OP did not mean to be cruel.
Now aren't you being just a shade dramatic? I would submit that you do not see the forest through the trees but please do feel free to explain...never mind..you started another thread to do so.

In all seriousness, feel free to explain?? Perhaps I don't see the forest through the trees however, spare the assumptions please..

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Read your quote, I made no assumptions, and have explained. If you have to trick them to correct them you are missing my point.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:55 pm

Well certainly one could cherry-pick a quote while ignoring the context and the body of the statement in order to proclaim and introduce dialogue about whatever their objective or subject matter they would like to create is...that's true...that would be just like staring at a tree and not seeing the forest behind it as well as the comprehension that the tree is only a part of a larger thing...a forest.

I'm guessing your point is that through repeated opportunities setting pup up to succeed he/she learns. Absolutely..I couldn't agree more and I also could not agree more that the basic premise should always be to increase the likelihood that the dog will succeed...no doubt.

Here's a trick question for you...what was pup nicked MOMENTARILY on level THREE (3) LOW for? And let me be clear lest I add fodder for you. 3 low as in a linear set-up..not a traditional set up found on many popular e-collars...oops I did say "low"...shoulda' just said 3

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:33 pm

If you "had to do some things for him to slip up" it doesn't matter if the correction was a strongly worded letter, you were wanting him to fail.

I did not cherry pick, I quoted the germane parts to my point.

I realize I have offended you, and knew I was taking that risk, but believe it was worth it.

Please re-read my words of explanation without trying to defend yourself, there is no need. I am sure you are a good guy and mean well. If you put your personal feelings to my lack of tact aside, I hope you will learn more about dog training.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:48 pm

Basically the intent of forcing ANY dog to a pile is to MAKE them go when YOU want them to go, not when THEY want to go. It is merely another form of control exerted on a dog for increased compliance with the trainer.
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Hattrick » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:57 pm

I think you should find someone with experence to help out with this. From what im reading ur making this alot harder for you and the dog. Im not going to get in too the process. But you need guidence from someone proven. Just 2 cents

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:09 pm

Neil wrote:If you "had to do some things for him to slip up" it doesn't matter if the correction was a strongly worded letter, you were wanting him to fail.

I did not cherry pick, I quoted the germane parts to my point.

I realize I have offended you, and knew I was taking that risk, but believe it was worth it.

Please re-read my words of explanation without trying to defend yourself, there is no need. I am sure you are a good guy and mean well. If you put your personal feelings to my lack of tact aside, I hope you will learn more about dog training.
Come on now...you have to admit that "Brutality" is rather strong. Yes, you are correct I am here to learn about this. I believe an earlier post indicated that perhaps more time spent would be appropriate on fetch-no-fetch..I say good advice however what the heck can I do if pup just "does it" w/out a slip? Assume he's wonder dog and move forward? If I took him into a more social situation and worked on this would that be setting him up to fail and cruel if I correct him? I did not intentionally create failure with the intent to encourage failure per se' the way you seem to suggest and by NO MEANS did I virtually stand there waiting for pup to fail hoping for an opportunity to zap him...that is simply ludicrous. My pup immediately picked up the bumpers in proper sequence time and time again having been praised for it up and down. Early in FF I took notice to his mouthing the different bumpers differently and having a preference for some over others so I had to increase repetition varying the bumpers and had to maintain pressure when he didn't "prefer" the white ones due to their softer consistency. According to your suggestion what should I have done? Gone back to the ones he likes because it is more likely he will fetch, hold, or pick up consistently without pressure? Seriously??

Pup aced this portion and through a proud smile I thought ok...how about this...and this...and this...wow, that's awesome!! We'll try again tonight...same thing...try again tomorrow..same thing...CONSISTENTLY over several sessions. I must admit that my next thought was NOT..wow I have a wonder dog...I should now put him onto nine bumpers and if he is not successful I will correct him until he gets it...seriously my friend..talk about setting pup up to fail!!! Pup has a strong recall and the number of times that I have had to use stim to reinforce could probably be counted on one hand over the last 6 mos or so. While heading to the pile he went stupid a couple times...he KNOWS what I am asking of him...he KNOWS go out and get it and return to heel without a word said but rather a tap on the head and a tap on the leg...he goes stupid and has a strong recall and you suggest BRUTALITY because I nicked him for stepping out of a KNOWN and well established sequence that he has just decided he just doesn't want to do when in fact one of the primary reasons for this training is to gain control through the use of pressure. Are you suggesting he was nicked for grabbing the second bumper out of sequence? No..he was not. What I found was the HOLE in this training and now after spending a day stepping back to fetch no fetch we will cord up and return to the pile to ensure that I am not SETTING MY DOG UP TO FAIL once we move to the next step.
Last edited by Tooling on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:13 pm

Hattrick wrote:I think you should find someone with experence to help out with this. From what im reading ur making this alot harder for you and the dog. Im not going to get in too the process. But you need guidence from someone proven. Just 2 cents
Perhaps you are right :?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:54 pm

Tooling,

Why do you care what I think?

Better to spend time training than defending yourself to me.

It is clear you do not understand my point. It is your dog, do with it as you wish. But it is clear to me you were taking a shortcut to speed things up. If you can't step back and understand that, I can't help you.

Neil

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Tooling
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:13 pm

I'm not looking for a shortcut and yes your assertions are very offensive and just FULL of assumptions.

Offer something useful and productive then...seriously. What is your advice. What part of Smart Fetch was rushed through and what shortcut are you referring to?

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Tooling wrote:I'm not looking for a shortcut and yes your assertions are very offensive and just FULL of assumptions.

Offer something useful and productive then...seriously. What is your advice. What part of Smart Fetch was rushed through and what shortcut are you referring to?
It is simple do not do some things so he will slip up.

Those are your words, I am not assuming anything.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:50 pm

Ok

What about his early inclination to accept one bumper over another with an obvious preference and success with one and not the other? How should I have handled that early on? I have not "mixed it up" with different objects with exception of a Dokken Quail once or twice (which he was fine with)

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:44 pm

gonehuntin' thank you for the direct answer to my question, I have read through many of your posts and they consistently make sense to me. hattrick thank you for your advice as well...wouldn't be the first time I've over-thunk something. Also thanks to all that had constructive things to offer..it is much appreciated.

Aside the fact that it is part of the process to assure reliability as gonehuntin' eluded to I'm not sure that it is going to have a truly practical use afield for my dog however NAVHDA may be a game we get involved with so..

Pup is doing great and is enthusiastic as could be....it is amazing how good his fetch is evolving.

Neil..thank you for being such a class act, your coaching skills are admirable and you are a true asset to newcomers looking for guidance.

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Tooling
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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:32 pm

DonF wrote:I do work on multiple falls just in case I ever shoot another double.
Just in case? lol

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Neil » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:41 pm

Tooling

Personal sarcastic attacks are unbecoming.

In actual fact I may have given you the best lesson you are likely to get on the internet.

I am betting you will think twice before you set up your dog just so you can correct him with the e-collar.

So you are most welcome. And I am sure you dog would thank me if he could.

Neil

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by SpringerDude » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:46 am

Tooling,

Is it part of the program to use different bumpers? I use different bumpers in a pile. If dog picks up a particular bumper first every time, I don't care. As long as the dog goes to the pile each time and comes back with a bumper. Most of the time I have a pile of the same bumpers anyway.

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Tooling » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:45 am

SpringerDude wrote:Tooling,

Is it part of the program to use different bumpers? I use different bumpers in a pile. If dog picks up a particular bumper first every time, I don't care. As long as the dog goes to the pile each time and comes back with a bumper. Most of the time I have a pile of the same bumpers anyway.
No it's not part of the program per se'. In the program Mr. Graham offers his opinion on the matter however opinions differ which he also acknowledges..I won't elaborate on that out of respect to Mr. Graham.

I personally don't see the need to "mix up" the objects however dogs see colors differently than we do...according to the experts blaze orange is basically tan or neutral whereas black and white is seen more from the perspective of contrast against a background. The program evolves into multiple bumpers and I simply bought a bunch of them in differing colors. I wasn't mixing it up so much as I was just grabbing bumpers for a session when I noticed a difference in pliability between the white ones and the black/white ones. Pup did too and for one reason or another didn't like the white ones. In fact he didn't like ANY of them as taken fresh from the package but had no problem with them after washed and tumbled through the dirt a bit. That's his personality as he is a little picky...doesn't like a dirty food dish, dirty food, dirty water, or to relieve himself in spots that have been used repeatedly by other dogs over and over like at a vets office in a "spot" or something like that. One of pups favorite play items has always been a soccer ball so heck it could be something as simple as that...I dunno'?? All I know is that I didn't want to take him through the process and arrive at a multiple bumper situation and have to pressure him really hard once we got there and chose to remedy that as best I could as we moved through the process straight away....to be candid..I could care a less what bumper or in what sequence my pup chooses to grab so long as he grabs it and brings it to me. That said...I lack experience w/ the formality of FF and will yield to those much more experienced than I so..

I'm not a big believer in "artificial scents"...interestingly enough when I bought the bumpers I did waste some $$ on some quail scent out of curiosity...dabbed some on a bumper and pup just turned his head away obviously grossed out and didn't want anything to do with it...this was not during a FF session. I can assure you, this is not my dogs lack of affinity for a quail..trust me :wink:

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Re: Force to pile for a pointing dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:37 pm

Tooling wrote:Aside the fact that it is part of the process to assure reliability as gonehuntin' eluded to I'm not sure that it is going to have a truly practical use afield for my dog however NAVHDA may be a game we get involved with so..

Every thing gonehuntin states will be of value to you as a huinting dog, a field and marsh.

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