Aversives

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EvanG
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Aversives

Post by EvanG » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:53 am

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made more likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (like a 2x4!). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. Aversive tools apply ‘unpleasant stimuli’.

The above description includes the word ‘punishment’. But that isn't specifically accurate in all dog training applications. I’m not going to launch into an Operant Conditioning discussion (yet). But what we’re really talking about here are aversive tools. Ear pinch, heeling sticks, e-collars, et al. They may punish, correct, or merely compel. But they do so by being used as implements that apply unpleasant stimuli (pressure/force).

I thought this might be a worthy discussion, what with hunting season coming up and all! I don't know about you, but I'm sharpening my dog up for hunting! :)

EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa

There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
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Winchey
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Re: Aversives

Post by Winchey » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:15 pm

This could be interesting. I need to think about it, and brush up on my retriever stuff, hopefully I will be able to get into this later tonight. Could be good.

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4dabirds
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Re: Aversives

Post by 4dabirds » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:42 pm

Thought this might help with the discussion,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn7-JZq0Yxs

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Winchey
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Re: Aversives

Post by Winchey » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:01 pm

I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I am trying to think of positive reinforcement with an aversive stimulus to make a behaviour more likely. But, pinching or forcing, or what not is by Skinners definition, negative reinforcement. The removal of unpleasant stimulus to strengthens or increase the behaviour. it is the application and the removal of the aversive at the appropriate time that strengthens.

Your first sentence is describing positive punishment, which is not the same as negative reinforcement.

I did think of a good example of indirect pressure though lol, I think :?

Hockey team keeps screwing up a break out drill over and over and over again, coach has enough, tears a strip off the team, makes them skate lines for 5 minutes and then starts the break out again, break out goes great...

Huh?

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EvanG
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Re: Aversives

Post by EvanG » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:06 pm

Winchey wrote:I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I am trying to think of positive reinforcement with an aversive stimulus to make a behaviour more likely. But, pinching or forcing, or what not is by Skinner's definition, negative reinforcement. The removal of unpleasant stimulus to strengthens or increase the behaviour. it is the application and the removal of the aversive at the appropriate time that strengthens.

Huh?
You're over complicating it, my friend. (Like dog trainers ever do that! :D ) Here are the names of some common aversives used in dog training.

Leash & choker or prong collar
Heeling stick (or riding crop, although one is not the same as the other)
Rope/check cord
E-collar

What makes these tools aversive? They each deliver an unpleasant stimulus, each in a different way, and that stimulus is directed toward a behavior change. Neither the amount, nor the kind of stimulus are what make them aversive. It is that the stimulus they deliver is perceived by the dog as unpleasant, and results in a behavior change. That's it. Don't drown yourself in OC terms. :lol:

EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa

There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum

whoadog
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Re: Aversives

Post by whoadog » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:41 pm

Not exactly the topic, but I would like to hear an opinion or two about applying aversives in conjuction with a word or a command in a similar fashion to base loading in clicker training. My personal word is "hey" and I initially only use it (but I always use it) as I am stimulating the e-collar. Later on this seems to give me a little more control without the collar. Has anyone ever "base loaded" an aversive? I am planning on helping a friend with some basic obedience training and am considering it with her non-hunting dog.

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4dabirds
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Re: Aversives

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:41 pm

whoadog wrote:Not exactly the topic, but I would like to hear an opinion or two about applying aversives in conjuction with a word or a command in a similar fashion to base loading in clicker training. My personal word is "hey" and I initially only use it (but I always use it) as I am stimulating the e-collar. Later on this seems to give me a little more control without the collar. Has anyone ever "base loaded" an aversive? I am planning on helping a friend with some basic obedience training and am considering it with her non-hunting dog.
What I learned from Hickox was to keep a continuity within the program. Use the clicker to mark wanted behaviors and the word no or any chosen word to mark unwanted behaviors. If the behavior is wanted notify with clicker and reward. If the behavior is unwanted notify with the word no and correct. Never use the word no in any other manner ,save it for notification. When training new behaviors, use eh eh or wrong to communicate to the dog it is not responding correctly to what you expect. No is only for known commands. When using notification the commands seem to have a greater meaning to the dog. Also the e-collar is implemented with a lowest number the dog can feel as a notification and correction is given at a level the dog would perceive as significant. The thing you have to be careful about with aversive training is that their effectiveness are always relative to the desire of the dog . If you mistakenly dish out punishment in small doses to the dog you may be training the dog to accept the correction as a means for the dog to get what the dog wants. The dog will continue to commit the unwanted behavior all the while you keep raising the level of the collar. Notification helps to avoid this problem.

Wendy M
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Re: Aversives

Post by Wendy M » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:59 am

EvanG wrote:
Winchey wrote:I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I am trying to think of positive reinforcement with an aversive stimulus to make a behaviour more likely. But, pinching or forcing, or what not is by Skinner's definition, negative reinforcement. The removal of unpleasant stimulus to strengthens or increase the behaviour. it is the application and the removal of the aversive at the appropriate time that strengthens.

Huh?
You're over complicating it, my friend. (Like dog trainers ever do that! :D ) Here are the names of some common aversives used in dog training.

Leash & choker or prong collar
Heeling stick (or riding crop, although one is not the same as the other)
Rope/check cord
E-collar

What makes these tools aversive? They each deliver an unpleasant stimulus, each in a different way, and that stimulus is directed toward a behavior change. Neither the amount, nor the kind of stimulus are what make them aversive. It is that the stimulus they deliver is perceived by the dog as unpleasant, and results in a behavior change. That's it. Don't drown yourself in OC terms. :lol:

EvanG
Evan, I think all trainers are aware that the use of aversives can change behaviour, but in order to be effective the trainer needs to understand them in terms of the behaviour he is wanting change – if his priority is to make a behaviour LESS likely – the timing of the APPLICATION of the aversive is paramount. If his priority is to make a behaviour MORE likely – then it is the timing of the REMOVAL of the aversive that is paramount.

Wendy

Swampbilly
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Re: Aversives

Post by Swampbilly » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:49 am

Wendy M wrote:
EvanG wrote:
Winchey wrote:I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I am trying to think of positive reinforcement with an aversive stimulus to make a behaviour more likely. But, pinching or forcing, or what not is by Skinner's definition, negative reinforcement. The removal of unpleasant stimulus to strengthens or increase the behaviour. it is the application and the removal of the aversive at the appropriate time that strengthens.

Huh?
You're over complicating it, my friend. (Like dog trainers ever do that! :D ) Here are the names of some common aversives used in dog training.

Leash & choker or prong collar
Heeling stick (or riding crop, although one is not the same as the other)
Rope/check cord
E-collar

What makes these tools aversive? They each deliver an unpleasant stimulus, each in a different way, and that stimulus is directed toward a behavior change. Neither the amount, nor the kind of stimulus are what make them aversive. It is that the stimulus they deliver is perceived by the dog as unpleasant, and results in a behavior change. That's it. Don't drown yourself in OC terms. :lol:

EvanG
Evan, I think all trainers are aware that the use of aversives can change behaviour, but in order to be effective the trainer needs to understand them in terms of the behaviour he is wanting change – if his priority is to make a behaviour LESS likely – the timing of the APPLICATION of the aversive is paramount. If his priority is to make a behaviour MORE likely – then it is the timing of the REMOVAL of the aversive that is paramount.

Wendy
Enjoyed your post Wendy.
Was hoping to sit back and absorb some good discussion on Operant Conditioning and Direct and Indirect pressure. :P

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