E-collar technique
E-collar technique
Just curious about how other people use their e-collar/what the best way is. A few "options" I've thought of:
1) No stim for the first command given, but stim if the dog doesn't respond to the initial command. (And would you use a higher or lower stim?)
2) Lower stim for the first command, then bump up one notch at a time, giving the command, until the dog complies (seems like this is how the Perfect Start DVDs do it).
3) Lower stim for the first command, then crank it up a few notches higher if you have to give the command again, so you really get the dog's attention (although not FRYING him, of course).
Which of these would best describe what you do? Mostly I'm curious if technique #2 would cause the dog to eventually become more desensitized to the stimulation, if you slowly build his tolerance for it. Or if you do something different (I couldn't think of any other alternatives), what do you do? Or have you tried techniques that were definitely bad?
I guess I do a bit of all three, depending on the situation; if I knew that one was definitely better (or worse) than the others, I would try to be more careful to tend towards (or away from) that one. Or maybe it doesn't really matter at all.
1) No stim for the first command given, but stim if the dog doesn't respond to the initial command. (And would you use a higher or lower stim?)
2) Lower stim for the first command, then bump up one notch at a time, giving the command, until the dog complies (seems like this is how the Perfect Start DVDs do it).
3) Lower stim for the first command, then crank it up a few notches higher if you have to give the command again, so you really get the dog's attention (although not FRYING him, of course).
Which of these would best describe what you do? Mostly I'm curious if technique #2 would cause the dog to eventually become more desensitized to the stimulation, if you slowly build his tolerance for it. Or if you do something different (I couldn't think of any other alternatives), what do you do? Or have you tried techniques that were definitely bad?
I guess I do a bit of all three, depending on the situation; if I knew that one was definitely better (or worse) than the others, I would try to be more careful to tend towards (or away from) that one. Or maybe it doesn't really matter at all.
- kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: E-collar technique
1st thing is to teach the dog what commands are before putting the e collar on
my process is while teaching with the lead is to establish the point of contact with tap tugs on the leash meaning to go with me and a constant till stopped for be still...I over lay that to the e collar as a tap for go and a constant for be still/whoa
http://www.kninebirddog.com/understandi ... ollar.html
my process is while teaching with the lead is to establish the point of contact with tap tugs on the leash meaning to go with me and a constant till stopped for be still...I over lay that to the e collar as a tap for go and a constant for be still/whoa
http://www.kninebirddog.com/understandi ... ollar.html
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
- gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4867
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
- Location: NE WI.
Re: E-collar technique
Once the dog is collar conditioned, they get ONE chance. If that command is disobeyed they get electrocuted on the second ( really, stimulated at the level that causes them discomfort.)
Let a dog ignore a command once, he'll try it twice.
Let him get away with it twice, he'll try it thrice.
Now you have a disobedient dog.
Let a dog ignore a command once, he'll try it twice.
Let him get away with it twice, he'll try it thrice.
Now you have a disobedient dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: E-collar technique
kninebirddog - I was asking the question with the assumption the dog understood the command and was collar-conditioned to it (ours is collar-conditioned to here, heel, and whoa). But he's not perfect (or probably more accurately, he's exactly as good/bad as our training techniques have been), so he doesn't respond the FIRST time every time (although most of the time he does), and I'm just curious what other people do when their dog doesn't obey 100% the first time a command is given.
- displaced_texan
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1003
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:57 pm
- Location: Mobilehoma
Re: E-collar technique
This.gonehuntin' wrote:Once the dog is collar conditioned, they get ONE chance. If that command is disobeyed they get electrocuted on the second ( really, stimulated at the level that causes them discomfort.)
Let a dog ignore a command once, he'll try it twice.
Let him get away with it twice, he'll try it thrice.
Now you have a disobedient dog.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...
Re: E-collar technique
None of the above. I train until there is absolutely no question the dog knows and obeys the command while being worked on a check cord. When I'm sure of that I put the collar on the dog give a low level of constant stimulation and give the command. As soon as the dog obeys (which generally is very quickly if properly trained) I turn the stimulation off immediately. That way the dog learns compliance turns off stimulation and doesn't have to guess why it is being stimulated.
Re: E-collar technique
^^^ This. And they wear the collar from the beginning just don't stimulate until they have the commands down.Tejas wrote:None of the above. I train until there is absolutely no question the dog knows and obeys the command while being worked on a check cord. When I'm sure of that I put the collar on the dog give a low level of constant stimulation and give the command. As soon as the dog obeys (which generally is very quickly if properly trained) I turn the stimulation off immediately. That way the dog learns compliance turns off stimulation and doesn't have to guess why it is being stimulated.
Re: E-collar technique
Okay ... but *if* your dog doesn't obey the first time ... hypothetically ...
I already said the dog isn't perfectly trained. My dog is trained to a level I'm comfortable with; in the cost-benefit analysis of whether we should work more on basic obedience, we've decided not to stress it much and more or less be in "maintenance mode" because we're happy with where he is.
So my question is directed to people with dogs who might, on occasion, require a second giving of a command that they already understand. Surely that happens to someone out there ...
I already said the dog isn't perfectly trained. My dog is trained to a level I'm comfortable with; in the cost-benefit analysis of whether we should work more on basic obedience, we've decided not to stress it much and more or less be in "maintenance mode" because we're happy with where he is.
So my question is directed to people with dogs who might, on occasion, require a second giving of a command that they already understand. Surely that happens to someone out there ...
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: E-collar technique
What are you trying to achieve? I know you visited AKC and NAHVDA venues but are you looking to compete or just want a good house pet? The answer to your question depends on what you want to achieve.
There is no simple answer to your question but atleast I have met you and your dog so maybe I can help.
There is no simple answer to your question but atleast I have met you and your dog so maybe I can help.
Re: E-collar technique
We're not looking to compete, we just want a well-behaved dog that we can take out hunting on occasion (and he *is* well-behaved - far better-behaved than I ever thought a dog I owned would be, and every time we interact with other people they comment on how obedient he is (granted, that's compared to their very disobedient housepets, but still)).
Sorry, I hadn't realized this was a complicated question ... I'm just asking what other people do ...
Sorry, I hadn't realized this was a complicated question ... I'm just asking what other people do ...
Re: E-collar technique
I have set the collar at a level at which the dog responds without crying out.
Let's say he doesn't obey on command one.(only said once).
I move the level up one place and give the command again.(Only say it once.)
Still doesn't obey?
I decide he needs further training on that command with the C cord/e collar and leave it until in a controlled setting.I don't keep jacking it up.
If I can get my hands on him , I do that, and may , depending on the situation, take him back to the truck.
Let's say he doesn't obey on command one.(only said once).
I move the level up one place and give the command again.(Only say it once.)
Still doesn't obey?
I decide he needs further training on that command with the C cord/e collar and leave it until in a controlled setting.I don't keep jacking it up.
If I can get my hands on him , I do that, and may , depending on the situation, take him back to the truck.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
- gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4867
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
- Location: NE WI.
Re: E-collar technique
Nice post Sharon.Sharon wrote:I have set the collar at a level at which the dog responds without crying out.
Let's say he doesn't obey on command one.(only said once).
I move the level up one place and give the command again.(Only say it once.)
Still doesn't obey?
I decide he needs further training on that command with the C cord/e collar and leave it until in a controlled setting.I don't keep jacking it up.
If I can get my hands on him , I do that, and may , depending on the situation, take him back to the truck.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: E-collar technique
Complicated? Yes, there is no simple answer. You are on the right path with a young GSP if other people call it"obedient" . I say keep on doing what your doing but if your results arent what you want, bump it up a notch. I mean training, not just collar level. There's no need to fry the dog.benelli wrote:We're not looking to compete, we just want a well-behaved dog that we can take out hunting on occasion (and he *is* well-behaved - far better-behaved than I ever thought a dog I owned would be, and every time we interact with other people they comment on how obedient he is (granted, that's compared to their very disobedient housepets, but still)).
Sorry, I hadn't realized this was a complicated question ... I'm just asking what other people do ...
-
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Central DE
Re: E-collar technique
benelli -
Anyone who tells you they never have to call their dog twice... well let's just say thy don't need an e-collar either.
Gonhuntin' is right that you do not let a dog disobey and you do not repeat commands that a dog has already blown off.
But Brazos is right in that there is no simple answer. What Sharon recommended, bumping the level up one and issuing the increased stim is a good way to handle it, but, her real training gem is how she handles it when that bump does not work.
I have seen pro trainers work with high octane derby dogs. When the youngster blows them off...and they do... the trainer does not usually repeat the command and does not usually turn up the juice more thqn that one notch. they may go from a nick to continuous which is probably about the same pressure level as going up a notch. If that does not work, they quietly... and as calmly as they can... go and get the dog. Once the dog is in hand, depending on the youngster's frame of mind at the moment, they may do any number of things, but most often they will just stand the dog up, firmly but gently, make it stand still for them, put a lead on, heel the dog off and then put the dog away or in harness.
For many bird dogs, being put away and having to watch some other dog having fun is worse punishment than getting beat with a stick. They LIVE to hunt.
Use that to help them get to where you want them to be.
Quick story...
My first dog was a dropper and he was tougher than slab of pig iron. He didn't love to hunt...he lived and breathed to hunt. This was in the days before e-collars. You could pick this dog up by the ears and give him what for and he would shake it off and go on pretty much like nothing happened. The only thing that really got to him was when I put him at heel in the field. He HATED that. If he was misbehaving and I put him at heel in the field for fifteen or twenty minutes, he was good as gold the rest of the day.
You gotta read your dog and know when they are unsure or confused or afraid. That is NOT the time for increased pressure, but rather it IS a time to physically reassure the dog, ideally with your hands and a time for helping the dog to regain its confidence.
RayG
Anyone who tells you they never have to call their dog twice... well let's just say thy don't need an e-collar either.
Gonhuntin' is right that you do not let a dog disobey and you do not repeat commands that a dog has already blown off.
But Brazos is right in that there is no simple answer. What Sharon recommended, bumping the level up one and issuing the increased stim is a good way to handle it, but, her real training gem is how she handles it when that bump does not work.
I have seen pro trainers work with high octane derby dogs. When the youngster blows them off...and they do... the trainer does not usually repeat the command and does not usually turn up the juice more thqn that one notch. they may go from a nick to continuous which is probably about the same pressure level as going up a notch. If that does not work, they quietly... and as calmly as they can... go and get the dog. Once the dog is in hand, depending on the youngster's frame of mind at the moment, they may do any number of things, but most often they will just stand the dog up, firmly but gently, make it stand still for them, put a lead on, heel the dog off and then put the dog away or in harness.
For many bird dogs, being put away and having to watch some other dog having fun is worse punishment than getting beat with a stick. They LIVE to hunt.
Use that to help them get to where you want them to be.
Quick story...
My first dog was a dropper and he was tougher than slab of pig iron. He didn't love to hunt...he lived and breathed to hunt. This was in the days before e-collars. You could pick this dog up by the ears and give him what for and he would shake it off and go on pretty much like nothing happened. The only thing that really got to him was when I put him at heel in the field. He HATED that. If he was misbehaving and I put him at heel in the field for fifteen or twenty minutes, he was good as gold the rest of the day.
You gotta read your dog and know when they are unsure or confused or afraid. That is NOT the time for increased pressure, but rather it IS a time to physically reassure the dog, ideally with your hands and a time for helping the dog to regain its confidence.
RayG
Re: E-collar technique
You may want to read the Aversives thread. That's all an e-collar is. How you use it is dependent on the dog; does he change behavior at a chosen level? Then why turn it up?
EvanG
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
- 4dabirds
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:49 am
- Location: Long Island New york
Re: E-collar technique
Dogs thrive on consistency . Get sloppy with yours and the dog will follow. If the dog is responding to a command 80 percent of the time you can be sure it understands the command. At this point if the dog is non compliant you need to correct the dog once. The level of stimulation should be significant enough to guarantee compliance. If you get sloppy and start changing levels up or down you send a mixed message to the dog . If properly collar conditioned the dog should be avoiding the correction. The significance of the correction as well as its inevitability is what causes the dog to comply. When you are consistent the dog will be as well. Train the dog to a perfect level of obedience and get sloppy down the road and you will see a level of degradation. It's a commitment. Don't think your doing the dog any favors by going easy as this will only cause you to use more correction in the long run. At the point you are at you have to make a good determination as to wether the dog is not complying because it does not really know the command or your own inconsistent correction as well as ineffectual correction. If you can not get the dog to respond on your first command have a professional help you with your collar work.
Re: E-collar technique
Thanks for all the replies! Very helpful. I know the dog does absolutely understand the commands, both with and without stimulation, so I think it's just a matter of treating all outings as "training," even if it's just a casual outing - when we go out "to train," I pay close attention to how I'm doing things, but when we're just burning off steam I'm not always as precise.
And mostly I was just asking because I was curious what other people do when they're in a situation where the dog doesn't obey, not because I'm at my wit's end (or anywhere near that) with my dog. He's a good boy.
And mostly I was just asking because I was curious what other people do when they're in a situation where the dog doesn't obey, not because I'm at my wit's end (or anywhere near that) with my dog. He's a good boy.