What's best for a pups first year training or hunting?

[Donnytpburge]

Lets keep it simple.

I believe hunting experience and bird exposure is the way to go the first year for any pup.

Db

[RayGubernat]

Anytime you are doing anything with a bird dog...you are training, whether you intend to or not. Hunting is training.

That said, I am not a big believer in letting a dog run amok for a year and then have to fix that in the pup's second year.

I believe that a good solid recall and a solid whoa go a long way toward good manners and safety in the field. I tend to think that if you install the brakes and steering before you take the car out on the racetrack, you will have far fewer wrecks.

Different folks can have very different ideas on just what constitutes a properly trained dog.

How you get from point A to point B with a dog, depends to a great extent on just what kind of dog you have.

RayG

[polmaise]

Hunting is not training (imo)
Training is shaping behaviour for hunting. Hunting is natural and requires no training. :roll:
............
Love ya Ray' ...but Lost it right there

[Winchey]

I try to shape behaviour of hunting while hunting all the time.

[polmaise]

How do y'all do that hunting and training and shaping with ''a pup''?

[gonehuntin']

No way in heck am I letting a dog go a year with no formal training. Beside shaping hhis natural ability, I want to shape how he will will accept training for the rest of his life. The longer a dog goes with no structured training, the tougher he will be to train.

[Donnytpburge]

Just looking for a simple answer, one or the other.

Db

[polmaise]

Different folks can have very different ideas on just what constitutes a properly trained dog.

How you get from point A to point B with a dog, depends to a great extent on just what kind of dog you have.

RayG

Nope!! ,Not In my experience!..Er ! well I'm sure all them that follow programmes would concur?..EH'?..surely if you follow the programme it can't be the kind of dog you have?..Or is the kind of dog you have not fit the programme?.. Eh'?
Hmmmmm!?..help me out here. Is it A to B?....or a transition through the alphabet to understand the whole language?..some may be left illiterate knowing only a to b.

[Winchey]

Depends, real young pup, a couple months old, I just try to get them on birds, help them be succesful in finding some wild birds every trip out, try to knock some down when in season and they do it right, work on recall a little bit with treats and praise, work on keeping them in front of you and going with you, I hunt in the woods so I work on keeping them off the trail and into the cover etc...

Maybe practice whoa a bit without birds, I start that young with treats. Gun conditioning when they are chasing a bird...

I don't do much yard training until I start breaking them on pigeons really.

Probably 95% or more of hunting training occurs when I am basically hunting.

If I had a pile of dogs I would probably do more yard work, and I do retriever stuff in the yard I suppose. I teach them their name, how to act in the house, come, whoa etc... very young in the house teach them to stay in the yard, but for just pointing dogs, it is really mostly hunting them and trying to shape them to do it the way you want while hunting them, and I accomplish the most regarding how they are as hunting dogs and proofing their commands they were taught very young while hunting them. I don't really know what I could teach them about hunting by training them at home really, just teach them their commands with PR and what not, and get pretty good compliance then gradually get more demanding use more pressure stuff as they grow up to get better obedience.

Thats the way I see it anyways.

I don't get the train only or hunt only the first year, pretty much start both at the same time at 8 weeks and gradually ask for more and more from them as they grow up.

[polmaise]

I don't do much yard training until I start breaking them on pigeons really.

Probably 95% or more of hunting training occurs when I am basically hunting.

thats the way I see it anyways.

Hmm?...That would be good to see?..any videos of you doing this?..or anyone else?

[Winchey]

I am not really sure what you are looking for, first you need to get them on some birds in the woods so they can figure out why they are out there so they start hunting, I don't teach a dog to quarter, I just want him to hunt, they learn from finding birds. Quartering isn't really useful for what I want, so there is no need to teach that in the yard.

Here is a video of my pup when he was 4 months hunting,



If they are doing it right you praise or say nothing, if they are doing it wrong you scold and or show them what you want? Like I said they know what come and whoa means shortly after coming home, so if I am in the woods and I see an good opportunity for the dog to comply to the command I will say it and if they comply make a big fuss over him and maybe give him a treat, same as whoa.

here he is picture at 3 months pointing a woodcock



Like I said, I am not really sure what you are looking for, I don't have or follow a program. My dogs certainly aren't 100% obedient when I take them out the first time, but you don't really need much if any obedience from an 8 week old. It is just gradually building, and asking for more and more in the hunting situation.

[Donnytpburge]

It is just gradually building, and asking for more and more in the hunting situation.

I agree

Db

[Winchey]

I have just been going over some of these arguments about hunting and training in recent threads and to be clear, I am talking pointers. I also start very young, if I was starting with a 2 year old run off I would do some yard work before I turned him loose in the woods. If we are talking duck hunting, then I believe it is wise to build a decent foundation before he goes hunting.

I think some of the different variables and miscommunication are causing many of the arguments.

[Neil]

Both.

[Donnytpburge]

Hmm?...That would be good to see?..any videos of you doing this?..or anyone else?

Polmaise

Are you going to answer the question?
Db

[mtlhdr]

No reason for this to be one or the other. My pup's first season will open next weekend. I won't shoot anything he mis-handles. I've gotta believe he's going to learn a ton from wild quail and chukar. Is that hunting or training, or both? There is no way I'd spend the next 4.5 months with pigeon/launcher and yard work. That's what the rest of the year is for.

[Neil]

It seems I have two parallel systems.

As they spend their first 6 months in the house learning to be a good citizen, I am putting my hands on them often. They then go to the kennel and rotate into the house ever 4th - 5th night, where they are worked in the training yard with the Buddy Stick and barrel on whoa, here and such.

At the same time they are learning to find birds in the fields, and during season, I will kill some birds with no regard if pointed or not. I have been known to carry a trap gun with 5's for the more adventuresome.

Depending on the dog's maturity and date of whelping, sometime around 18 months and 24, we merge the training, they are gradually expected to be staunch and steady, finished out before they are 3.

I still don't concern myself how the bird flushes, if they knock birds I will correct them and continue training.

I just don't agree the dog must handle birds properly before I shoot. The concept you are teaching them to knock and chase has not been my experience. I spend most of my time training to find birds. And not worry about the little things.

[Chukar12]

Just looking for a simple answer, one or the other.Db

It can't or shouldn't be answered one or the other because its only simple in a limited point of view. Like so many things that folks would like to take literally there are too many factors involved, not limited to but including; Your "finished" goals for the dog, the type of hunting, and your experience/ability to shape behavior and build on opportunities and or challenges presented.

If you care to generalize...most dogs can and will eventually train themselves. Pointing dogs that you just want to stand long enough for you to get in range are not hard to come by, with flushing dogs if you just want them in range and no finished manners its even easier.

Many trainers are talented enough to take a dog that bumps and chases a bit and put the brakes on them later. I like hunting a dog on wild birds when its 6 to 18 months old, but i am in the camp that only shoots pointed birds...and if after a few bumps and chases in the country I have them in, if they do not appear to be inclined to point rather than run miles under chukars sailing over canyons; convinced to stand based on the sheer uselessness of trying to catch, then they get taken off birds. It is two entirely different kinds of dog, the pointer and the chaser.

I do not agree that the statement "it is the way to go for ANY pup" is accurate. There are no absolutes with dogs and I think we will find that the biggest discord in a forum like this comes when someone insists on applying these absolutes; and it seems they are especially raw when folks of experience dispute the premises.

[Donnytpburge]

Chukar:

You have made a great point and I stand CORRECTED. I should not have asked for a basic this or that answer.
I have enjoyed the conversation and hope to get some more of both view points.

db

[Neil]

I have never had a dog over a year old chase more than a few feet before correction.

If you only shoot pointed birds, what does it do to your dog when you miss?

[Chukar12]

I have never had a dog over a year old chase more than a few feet before correction.If you only shoot pointed birds, what does it do to your dog when you miss?

I have never had a dog over a year old chase more than a few feet before correction.If you only shoot pointed birds, what does it do to your dog when you miss?

I have had lots of them chase and we would need to clarify the dog and the age, I am not yet making corrections on birds in most cases (The OP said the dogs first year and take into account how much time is covered in a hunting season) and even if I am while hunting wild birds a fair amount of the time the first I know of a dog breaking is seeing a soaring covey some distance off and occasionally a dog in pursuit. Too many of those and I revoke the freedom, IMO it promotes dogs that are not steady on the limb. Now after some training and I am sure the dog is clear that it is to stand...I am comfortable making a correction and rolling a dog that is chasing to a stop with the collar, but it takes me a while to get there.

I am not sure I understand the second part Neil...What I mean is the puppy has to point and I flush it or I just don't shoot. I don't like to shoot with any dog running after birds. If they break after I flush I am ok with that. If I hit the bird, great the pup can pick up a bird. If I miss we move on. The pups that have learned that running to the bottom of a canyon only to turn around and come back is not productive will almost always peel off missed birds in short order and look for more to point. Those that do not get put in the "I like to chase too much to trust in the wild bird rodeo"

[Neil]

Many, most, say never shoot an unpointed bird as it will promote/encourge the knocking/chasing of birds. Were that true what does missing teach? I mean if not shooting teaches so should missing, as should hitting. In truth it does not matter significantly.

By the time my dogs are a year old, they have had hundreds of hours on the whoa barrel and on the Buddy Stick, they know to stop.

If I were not to use the e-collar around birds I would throw them away.

This only shoot pointed birds mantra had to originated pre-e-collar, and just keeps being repeated. Does not make it true.

There are more important things to be concerned with, like finding birds.

[Chukar12]

There are more important things to be concerned with, like finding birds.

That is exactly the point. I don't need to shoot birds...and if a dog (this should be puppy) will show me they can learn manners from birds without a collar or cord I let them. The two most reliable dogs I have ever owned are of that school...

By the time my dogs are a year old, they have had hundreds of hours on the whoa barrel and on the Buddy Stick, they know to stop.If I were not to use the e-collar around birds I would throw them away.

Yeah, not mine I do it differently and I use the collar around birds but it isn't about age or yard work I need to see the dog prove he/she is ready to stand around birds, whoa work and the e-collar help me but not until the very last stage.

In truth it does not matter significantly.

I do not disagree with this...my point is identifying dogs that like to point and those that don't. Some rip and go, some stand I train them differently.

[Winchey]

I am not really sure I understand what you are saying Neil.

I will knock down about anything I can for puppy his first year.

If an older dog I am breaking out decides to take a bird for a ride I am not talented enough to correct the dog and knock down the bird?

[RayGubernat]

Hunting is not training (imo)
Training is shaping behaviour for hunting. Hunting is natural and requires no training. :roll:
............
Love ya Ray' ...but Lost it right there

Au contraire mon ami !!

BTW that is about the extent of my French.

Anytime you do anything at all with a dog...it is training. Hunting most assuredly is training because part of hunting with a dog is to have the dog hunt with you and for you.

If you think, for even a split second, that the dog(pretty much ANY dog) actually needs a human hunter clumping along, for it to hunt efficiently and effectively...you are very mistaken. They are the real predator on the team. They don't need us at all.

We are the ones that need them, which is why we train them...WHEN HUNTING...to stay with us, to look for us, to come back for us and in the case of pointing dogs, to wait for us to get there.

Anytime you spend time with a dog, you are training it. If you are not actively training it, it is learning anyway. What you allow a dog to do you are training a dog to do.

We cannot begin to train a dog to hunt. The average dog comes out of the birth canal knowing more about hunting than we will ever learn. They will do very nicely all on their own, thank you.

What we can, and indeed MUST do, is to train the dog to hunt with us and for us. and yes that occurs in the hunting fields as well as the training fields, if the two are even different.

RayG

[Neil]

I carry my transmitter on my left side hanging upside down from a belt loop, I can get to it quickly, but these days I don't worry much about shooting, I let my son and his buddies do most of it, and if it flies, it dies with those guys, they don't much care about points or training.

What I am saying, my dogs are not deep thinkers, they have never shown me that they understand the whole risk - reward, cause - reaction matrix to connect shoot - don't shoot. Nope I am satisfied they point, and are staunch and steady because I train them to.

Some years ago a PhD from UC Davis was collecting DNA swabs to issolate the pointing gene in dogs. I told him I did not think he would find it, all dogs point, it is just hesitation before the pounce. Have you seen his published results? Don't think you ever will. Most of those that pointed young often were hesitant in other areas.

Now I would be interested in finding the gene that promotes the finding of birds. That is worth breeding for.

So hunt the pup, shoot birds and enjoy.

[Chukar12]

Most of those that pointed young often were hesitant in other areas.

This is precisely why some keep hunting with me and others get broke. I believe dogs are like people some need more development and some need more discipline.

[slistoe]

Lets keep it simple.

I believe hunting experience and bird exposure is the way to go the first year for any pup.

Db

It's not that simple.

Can you do good things with a pup by hunting in the first year - yes.
Can you ruin a good pup by hunting in the first year - yes.
Can you do good things by training in the first year - yes.
Can you ruin a good pup with training in the first year - yes.

What is ruined for me might be good for you and vice versa.

[polmaise]

Hunting is not training (imo)
Training is shaping behaviour for hunting. Hunting is natural and requires no training. :roll:
............
Love ya Ray' ...but Lost it right there

Au contraire mon ami !!

BTW that is about the extent of my French.

What we can, and indeed MUST do, is to train the dog to hunt with us and for us. and yes that occurs in the hunting fields as well as the training fields, if the two are even different.

RayG

Not 'SO' different as the same perhaps Ray?
Best french I could come up with is counting to 4! or is that 2 then another 2?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_fHScmyWTA

[RayGubernat]

Hunting is not training (imo)
Training is shaping behaviour for hunting. Hunting is natural and requires no training. :roll:
............
Love ya Ray' ...but Lost it right there

Au contraire mon ami !!

BTW that is about the extent of my French.

What we can, and indeed MUST do, is to train the dog to hunt with us and for us. and yes that occurs in the hunting fields as well as the training fields, if the two are even different.

RayG

Not 'SO' different as the same perhaps Ray?
Best french I could come up with is counting to 4! or is that 2 then another 2?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_fHScmyWTA

I don't get all persnickety about the little stuff when I am hunting, because I am out there to have fun with the dog and if the dog makes a minor error...I'll do a quickie reminder type correction on the spot and work on it later. I also might let the dog have a little more rope(freedom) than I might in a training or field trial scenario, one because I want to have fun and two because I want to see just what the dog will do with that little extra rope. Sometimes they hang themselves with it, sometimes they do something extra special. BUT - with those caveats...

I do really try to maintain the same level of performance both when hunting and training, so for me, they are mostly the same, just during one I am carrying a gun that can only make noise and during the other, I can actually make things fall out of the sky(sometimes).


I do think the dogs really like the fall out of the sky part when I do what I am supposed to.


RayG

[polmaise]

I do think the dogs really like the fall out of the sky part when I do what I am supposed to.
RayG

This was today! ..not long back in from this little ones very first day. But then , it was being trained for a client on steadiness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vef1EzORgA8

[ckgsp]

hunting is the dog learning him or her self how to handle any situation what the handler does from there determines what is really going on in my eyes. The one thing that you need is birds,birds and then how about more birds.

[clink83]

I carry my transmitter on my left side hanging upside down from a belt loop, I can get to it quickly, but these days I don't worry much about shooting, I let my son and his buddies do most of it, and if it flies, it dies with those guys, they don't much care about points or training.

What I am saying, my dogs are not deep thinkers, they have never shown me that they understand the whole risk - reward, cause - reaction matrix to connect shoot - don't shoot. Nope I am satisfied they point, and are staunch and steady because I train them to.

Some years ago a PhD from UC Davis was collecting DNA swabs to issolate the pointing gene in dogs. I told him I did not think he would find it, all dogs point, it is just hesitation before the pounce. Have you seen his published results? Don't think you ever will. Most of those that pointed young often were hesitant in other areas.

Now I would be interested in finding the gene that promotes the finding of birds. That is worth breeding for.

So hunt the pup, shoot birds and enjoy.

The reason you haven't seen the results probably has more to do with the lack of knowledge of dog genetics than anything else. If you can breed to improve it, it has a genetic basis. Finding which gene it is...that's a whole other story.

[Neil]

But they have the canine genome, genes all maped out. The researcher took a lot of swabs from most of the pointing breeds. I think he went on to something easier to prove.

A cat points, some with good style.

[Tooling]

But they have the canine genome, genes all maped out. The researcher took a lot of swabs from most of the pointing breeds. I think he went on to something easier to prove.

A cat points, some with good style.

I'm sure you've seen a Blue Heron stalking fish in action...is there a more staunch critter on point than that? They will stand for hours...motionless!!

How ironic a bird stands his prey far beyond a bird dog ever could...go figure

[clink83]

The genome is sequenced for many animals true, but identifying genes and mapping their function is a whole other process, and will take a long time to sort out. The other problem is that genes can code for several different things, depending on which signaling pathways are activated during transcription and translation.
Identifying the gene would be hard too, you can't just do a BLAST database search and compare genes to other known genes.
Pointing could be 95% learned and 5% genetic, or 95% genetic and 5% learned. However, if you can breed for it, it has to be genetic at some level.
A pointing lab doesn't point the same as an EP, even if trained by the same person does it? I've never seen a wolf honoring its packmates point either:)

[Neil]

The genome is sequenced for many animals true, but identifying genes and mapping their function is a whole other process, and will take a long time to sort out. The other problem is that genes can code for several different things, depending on which signaling pathways are activated during transcription and translation.
Identifying the gene would be hard too, you can't just do a BLAST database search and compare genes to other known genes.
Pointing could be 95% learned and 5% genetic, or 95% genetic and 5% learned. However, if you can breed for it, it has to be genetic at some level.
A pointing lab doesn't point the same as an EP, even if trained by the same person does it? I've never seen a wolf honoring its packmates point either:)

You had my agreement until the last sentence, other than the tail you can get a PL to point, with some intensity, and wolf pups do honor their mothers.

I am just not sure we are breeding for point.