Do we have any hope?

[Samm87]

My sweet wife bought me a black lab puppy trying to do something nice for me...
Not really knowing what to look for she found a black lab puppy and went to get him and
Surprised me when I got home. He was 4 months old at the time took one look at me and ran the other direction...I'm not that ugly... Turns out Ol' jet boy is scared of pretty much everything (me at first, cars, trucks, strangers,) when he is around other dogs he is a little
Better but by himself he tightens up.... he is a year old now and him and I are buddies... He has desire to retrieve. Plays fetch for hours if you can go that long... Would it be possible to have him trained to go dove hunting with me and my son? We don't really even care if he retreives but it
Would be nice.

Anyone ever heard of this before?

[kninebirddog]

If the dog has any bird desire you may stand a chance that desire for the bird has to be built up though before one goes shooting over the dog specially dove as there are many shots taken which can be very over whelming so again if there is any desire it can possibly be done But it needs to be done carefully and if you are just starting out I would suggest finding a trainer near you to help evaluate your dogs possible potential.

If there is absolutely no desire for birds then you have yourself a very nice companion dog.

[kninebirddog]

PS if you can tell us where approximately you are that might help as to some suggestions as to where to go to get some help

[polmaise]

he is a year old now and him and I are buddies... He has desire to retrieve. Plays fetch for hours if you can go that long... Would it be possible to have him trained to go dove hunting with me and my son? We don't really even care if he retreives but it
Would be nice.

Anyone ever heard of this before?

Almost every time I see a post on here
I don't see any problem?...Your goal/aim is not far from what you have already

[Samm87]

We live just outside of rockwall texas.

[rinker]

I think you are saying that he is gun shy, is that correct? If not, I think you could take him hunting today.

[Samm87]

I'm not saying he is gun shy... I'm more so saying he is a big chicken.

I have been too nervous about messing him up by taking him around gun fire too quickly to try it...
Don't know if its true or not but I've heard that if you screw it up the first time it's pretty much over.

[Samm87]

We are just outside of rockwall texas.

And I'm not saying he is gun shy... I am saying he is a big
Chicken. Skiddish may be a better word for it...

I have been to chicken to take him out around guns for fear that the way he is already it will ruin any small chance I have of having him go with us.

[polmaise]

he was skiddish around you at the start!?...but now he is your buddy?
Do the same introduction with anything new.

[Chukar12]

You are right to be cautious about introducing the dog you described to the gun. It is highly likely that you could take this pup out to do dove hunt with the modest and realistic goal you have stated. If you have the resources to see a local trainer for gun intro and messing with birds it would be a couple hundred dollars well spent.

If that is not an option and in my opinion it is by far your best option..do you know how to access either game birds or pigeons in your area?

[Samm87]

Well to get him to like me it took about 6-7 weeks of me going outside in the back yard and sitting on the ground with a package of hotdogs tossing chunks to him and eventually getting him to come to me on his own terms... Not really sure how to translate that to this application... Do I shoot the gun and then give him a treat and keep doing that over and over?

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions but he is completely opposite of any dog I have ever had.

[Samm87]

Chukar12.

I do not know how get ahold of pidgins

[Chukar12]

None of these are dumb questions and it sounds like the dog hit the jack pot with your patience.

Most gun introduction is done in incremental steps while the dog is in a heated pursuit of game, starting at a distance with small caliber mis-directed fire and escalating into the situation of final application; i.e. a dog sitting between people with guns going off in multitudes such as on a dove hunt.

Maybe, this person who lives where you do would be willing to see how the dog reacts to game and advise you on whether you could shoot around the dog for a small fee: http://northtexasdogtrainers.com/

[Winchey]

Same as what the rest said. Don't take him this year, have him gun conditioned properly and you should be fine for what you want.

[gonehuntin']

This is a post I made on another forum. Some of the things in it don't apply to you, but I didn't feel like re-typing the entire post. Hope it helps



CURING GUN SHYNESS

A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs
your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise
(gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the
noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to
just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and
over until he learns not to fear the noise.

I'll try and explain it so you understand.
Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS
his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and
retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to
eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force
the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird.
I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female
breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off,
get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it
to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive
surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him
then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a
dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it
won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to
the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast,
you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and
let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the
birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't
have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat
out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a
gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22
blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the
bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before
throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves,
have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from
the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the
report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so
loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any
hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the
air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time
you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation,
back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

. Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and
when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog..
He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until
the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is
crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your
side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go
OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again.
Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a
pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by
this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want
anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If
you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

Patience. If you have no patience and
aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a
progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training.

[Samm87]

Thanks a bunch guys! Lots of good info.

[EvanG]

My sweet wife bought me a black lab puppy trying to do something nice for me...
Not really knowing what to look for she found a black lab puppy and went to get him and
Surprised me when I got home. He was 4 months old at the time took one look at me and ran the other direction...I'm not that ugly... Turns out Ol' jet boy is scared of pretty much everything (me at first, cars, trucks, strangers,) when he is around other dogs he is a little
Better but by himself he tightens up.... he is a year old now and him and I are buddies... He has desire to retrieve. Plays fetch for hours if you can go that long... Would it be possible to have him trained to go dove hunting with me and my son? We don't really even care if he retreives but it
Would be nice.

Anyone ever heard of this before?

When you're a pro you 'hear of this' a lot! In fairness to the dog, I think it would be better to switch your priorities. It is very possible to have your dog nicely trained and equipped with the skills he needs for his life's work in time for dove season....next year. You have many more seasons ahead of you both. Do yourself and your dog a favor, and put him through the (approximately) 6 month course of formal Basics. Do it right. Take your time. Next season take your rock solid, more mature Lab to the field and get ready for some of the greatest days of your life!



EvanG

[polmaise]

In fairness 'gh'
I can't remember the op saying the dog had an issue of 'gunshy'?...that would have indicated a previous behaviour to the action?...I read that the op was more 'in fearful' of the event of 'gunshot'?
..........
there is many ways ,to introduce this for a young dog, here is one of those many ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmslIol-kmg

[gonehuntin']

In fairness 'gh'
I can't remember the op saying the dog had an issue of 'gunshy'?...that would have indicated a previous behaviour to the action?...I read that the op was more 'in fearful' of the event of 'gunshot'?
..........
there is many ways ,to introduce this for a young dog, here is one of those many ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmslIol-kmg

He said the dog was skittish. That tells you that a problem may very well exist or be extremely easy to create.

Dove are very tough for a new dog to pick up. They are calmly sitting next to you,then all of a sudden a volley od several shots with no apparent reason. A disaster in the making.

this is also a great and very safe method to use to introduce any dog to the gun. For a simple introduction, it simply requires less steps.

Better safe than sorry. This dog is skittish. Apparently has had no or very limited contact with birds. Has had no gun introduction. Take him dove hunting with no intro and chances are at the first shot you'll be looking for the pup in the next county or under the car. Many times, once gun shy, gun shy forever. I know of no pro that will guarantee they can cure a gun shy dog. So in this case discretion, caution and patience rules the hour.

[polmaise]

I know of no pro that will guarantee they can cure a gun shy dog. So in this case discretion, caution and patience rules the hour.

Got one right next to me!...but he say's " It has to be gun shy first" !

[Samm87]

Ya I am the one nervous about taking him around guns.

Might should have mentioned earlier is that when he is around my other dog he acts fairly normal. But when he is alone be loses all confidence... Also another reason why I am nervous about taking him is that quick movements scare him (again only when he is by himself) when we play fetch with my other dog I can bang pots and raise all sorts of heck and he doesn't stop.

He is a head case (I have had many people tell me to give him away and start over) but I don't believe in doing that... If he won't hunt that's ok he is still my buddy... Maybe my labradoodle (she is way more chill) would be able to go... In all honesty I just like having them out there I could care less if they go get my birds I would just be cool for them to be there!

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Ya I am the one nervous about taking him around guns.

In all honesty I just like having them out there I could care less if they go get my birds I would just be cool for them to be there!

This is one of the leading reasons for gun shy dogs. Gun problems are not natural they are created. Its a good thing that you want your dog to be part of what you do. However, you need to try see things from the dogs perspective. If he is out in the field and the gun fire bothers him, you've created a problem. Particularly if he makes a negative association with birds and guns.

Find a source for pigeons, (they really do exist) and work with your future hunting partner before going afield. Introduce the gun properly and in a timely fashion. Also do your yard work. Do all of this and you can pretty much assure that he'll pick up and retrieve your doves.

Good luck,

Nate

[whoadog]

I know of no pro that will guarantee they can cure a gun shy dog.

I have a success rate in the low 90's. It's close enough to guaranteed that I don't charge until the dog demonstrates acceptance of gunfire (so I guess I really do guarantee it). It can also be done quickly and easily, my program takes 3-6 weeks, with absolutely no cruelty to the dog (no withholding food or subjecting the dog to decibel levels they are unprepared for). Still, I would agree you are correct in using caution to avoid having to cure the fault.

My sweet wife bought me a black lab puppy trying to do something nice for me...

Anyone ever heard of this before?

A question to the OP: Does your dog show more confidence around your wife or son? My wife had a dachsund that was terrified of men. So much so that we eventually found a home for him with a single woman. It's a bit unusual but it does happen now and again. That particular dog was a rescue project that had been abused by young man so there was a legitimate reason he was the way he was. My point is, sorry it took so long to get to it, you may be able to find some one in your own family that might be better suited to work with your dog in the early stages of training and in particular the gun work.

[gonehuntin']

I know of no pro that will guarantee they can cure a gun shy dog.

I have a success rate in the low 90's. It's close enough to guaranteed that I don't charge until the dog demonstrates acceptance of gunfire (so I guess I really do guarantee it). It can also be done quickly and easily, my program takes 3-6 weeks, with absolutely no cruelty to the dog (no withholding food or subjecting the dog to decibel levels they are unprepared for). Still, I would agree you are correct in using caution to avoid having to cure the fault.

That rate is unheard of. Is that with GUNSHY dogs or dogs tentative around loud noise?

How many have you cured?

Perhaps you could give us a break down of the method you use.

[whoadog]

That rate is unheard of. Is that with GUNSHY dogs or dogs tentative around loud noise?

How many have you cured?

Perhaps you could give us a break down of the method you use.

In the last 13 years, I have cured 10 of the 11 I accepted. One of the dogs was so gunshy that he cringed at the sight of the gun. Most were not dogs that were "gun nervous". They were head for the truck and hide underneath when the guns made noise kinds of dogs. The one dog I gave up on (after only a week) was a lab that had little interest in retrieving and no interest at all in birds. I know the rate is unheard of, but it's for real and I can provide references. I will not go into detail about my specific technique because it is a part of my business, but let's just say a clicker can be anything.

[whoadog]

Sorry first line should have read "In the last 3 years" not 13. I was talking while typing which is not my strong suit. A break down of breeds and sexes of dogs would be: 2 Vizlas, one male one female, 4 labs that were successfull all males, one female lab unsuccessful, 3 gsps 2 males and a female, and one dog that was dumped at my house that I don't even know what the breed is. There is actually a youtube video of that dog pointing a wing if you want to take a guess. The title is "Turk the improbable pointer" and I intend to pheasant hunt him this fall.

[gonehuntin']

Thanks Whoadog. That is an incredible record. Yes, I AM envious!

[Samm87]

Yes my dog never had any shy or nervousness around my son or my wife. He isn't nervous around me usually anymore. Not sure if that's me learning what to do or him being more comfortable around me...

[Ruffshooter]

You are not a pro. So do not do anything to create gun shyness. Sitting the dog in a dove field with nothing going on then all of a sudden volleys of shooting.
If this dog has not been around game or dead birds then it will never associate the gun with game. If he is skiddish and still takes to different situations and noises slowly and you throw this dog into the shooting. You will end up with a gun shy dog. But

If you follow the slow patient process laid out for you, you will be able to hunt this dog and build it up to be in a dove field.

It is easier to prevent a problem than cure one.

Also, when training don't go into it fearing failure. Have a good steady frame of mind. Stop on a good note. If you can't get there go back to something the dog does well, then pack it up for the day.

[4dabirds]

I am looking at this from a slightly different perspective. While I agree on almost all of what has been prescribed , I think getting the dog more confident in its surroundings before you advance may help you at this time . I had a conversation with my training partner about buster this morning on our way back from training. He remarked on how different busters behavior is and how much happier and confident he seems. Buster is a mutt my wife rescued from the local animal rescue. He has big issues with a lot of things and was always nervous and skittish. He has come a long way from a dog that would not step on a ramp laid out flat on a driveway, to a dog that runs up it to get in the kennel to go out training with the hunting dogs. The reason for this is my wife always made me feel guilty leaving him behind when I went out training and hunting with the other dog. So I spent some time with him using the clicker to train a few behaviors such as sit -stay as well as entering the truck kennel via the tailgate ramp. The point of this is that the clicker training is very effective at bringing out confidence in a dog that has very little understanding of what is expected of it. Dogs do not communicate well with people and vice versa. It may not be so much of a characteristic trait of the dog but more of an apprehension due to a lack of understanding your expectations. There is a book called culture clash By Jean Donaldson. You can get the book on amazon for around ten dollars . It is also available on the net as a PDF. Just google it and you should be able to find it for free. Get the book and read it, it should help you a lot.