When my lab was young (first season) she couldnt handle the pressure of a couple hundred geese circling a spread in the fields, and would bust. Same with ducks piling into the blocks. I did exacly what Neil is suggesting, and every time she began to fidget i would give a verbal correction. In flooded timber she hung herself a couple times off her platform, that taugth her a quick lesson.Neil wrote:Cheat. All my blinds have a loop to attach a short lead. When in flooded timber I hook them to a tree. If in the open, I take a stake. I take away the opitions.
+1jimbo&rooster wrote:Neil wrote:
You have many seasons of hunting her ahead of you. letting your dad shoot this season and handling your dog will be the best thing you can do for Banks.
Jim
That is correct...times tons!birddog1968 wrote:+1jimbo&rooster wrote:Neil wrote:
You have many seasons of hunting her ahead of you. letting your dad shoot this season and handling your dog will be the best thing you can do for Banks.
Jim
That's as much fun as watching the dog work!whatsnext wrote:jimbo&rooster is right we do this for the joy of watching dog's work not just shooting birds, so just handle your dog and tease your dad when he misses a shot
I do not think he is ready for all that. In a year perhaps, for now, find ways to help him succeed, no need to tempt beyond his current skill level. Rushing is never good, he needs to be ready by this coming weekend, tether him and train later.gonehuntin' wrote:Tempt the larcenous devil. Instead of bumpers, throw 1000 clip wings, some long, some short. Call other dogs names. You should be able to throw and shoot a blank, then loudly call another dog's name and have him sit there. He should only go on HIS name. If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
He has 4 days!!!!!gonehuntin' wrote:Maybe I missed something; how old is the dog?
The drill I gave you is for a year or older dog. If he's a pup, keep him on a slip lead.
A buddy uses an EP to retrieve waterfowl with this exact method with great success.Neil wrote:Cheat. All my blinds have a loop to attach a short lead. When in flooded timber I hook them to a tree. If in the open, I take a stake. I take away the opitions.
I don't much care if he's got four days or four years; you can begin steadying him anytime. Start him in the yard, continue in the blind. Every time we hunt or train a dog the opportunity exists to advance the dog or to hold him back. The road we choose determines the successfulness of the dog.Neil wrote:He has 4 days!!!!!gonehuntin' wrote:Maybe I missed something; how old is the dog?
The drill I gave you is for a year or older dog. If he's a pup, keep him on a slip lead.
Get real.
You can make some dogs do many things !gonehuntin' wrote: If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
Really? How do you teach a dog to WANT to stop eating birds?polmaise wrote:Making any dog Want to do all things is what a good trainer does!gonehuntin' wrote: If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
Easy ! put a balloon inside the birdgonehuntin' wrote:
Really? How do you teach a dog to WANT to stop eating birds?
Every point legitimate. But, GH, I'm sure you know by now that Polmaise is not attempting to learn anything. Only to argue, and to consistently distort.gonehuntin' wrote:Really? How do you teach a dog to WANT to stop eating birds?
Why would any high power retriever WANT to stay steady?
Why would a retriever WANT to leave a poison bird or a diversion bird?
Why would any pointing dog WANT to not chase a flushed bird?
A dog WANTS to perform these tasks only because of the consequences that occur if he doesn't. They may or may not be severe consequences, but consequences there surely are.
Definitely. I'm extremely opposed to not whacking a dog with a heeling stick. Every well trained dog works through a tremendous amount of desire and a small amount of fear. Without the desire, you have a lump. Without the fear, you have a heathen.polmaise wrote:I am opposed to the use of a heeling stick to whack a dog!
" here lies the argumentation
gonehuntin' wrote:Well, that was truly astounding. I saw two dogs run out into a field and never return. Fascinating.
I have used this method, not nearly as much as I should and it shows. We ran a test last weekend and he wasn't hardly steady to save his life. In the two weeks prior to the test, he got every retrieve. Earlier this year, I went to pick up every 2 out of 6or8 birds and he stopped moving. I think this is a great method to use and only intensifies the steadiness. It makes that bird they get to retrieve worth so much more to them if they don't know when they will get it.mtlhdr wrote:I have also read that not sending him on every retrieve can help teach patience/steadiness. Maybe someone with more experience can explain the merits of this approach.
My thoughts exactly!EvanG wrote:Every point legitimate. But, GH, I'm sure you know by now that Polmaise is not attempting to learn anything. Only to argue, and to consistently distort.gonehuntin' wrote:Really? How do you teach a dog to WANT to stop eating birds?
Why would any high power retriever WANT to stay steady?
Why would a retriever WANT to leave a poison bird or a diversion bird?
Why would any pointing dog WANT to not chase a flushed bird?
A dog WANTS to perform these tasks only because of the consequences that occur if he doesn't. They may or may not be severe consequences, but consequences there surely are.
EvanG
I'm sure that will work out just fine Double Shot Banks.Double Shot Banks wrote: Thinking i will hold him steady when the ducks come in,
The above may well be the best example of how NOT to train a dog I have ever read - EVER!!!gonehuntin' wrote:Tempt the larcenous devil. Instead of bumpers, throw 1000 clip wings, some long, some short. Call other dogs names. You should be able to throw and shoot a blank, then loudly call another dog's name and have him sit there. He should only go on HIS name. If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
What a load of garbage. There probably isn't a retriever trainer in the country today that doesn't use a heeling stick. You really have to get out more. I doubt you'll find many or any retiever trainers that will agree with the nonsense you post.Neil wrote:The above may well be the best example of how NOT to train a dog I have ever read - EVER!!!gonehuntin' wrote:Tempt the larcenous devil. Instead of bumpers, throw 1000 clip wings, some long, some short. Call other dogs names. You should be able to throw and shoot a blank, then loudly call another dog's name and have him sit there. He should only go on HIS name. If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
I have finished a couple hundred dogs, and have not had to whack one with anything since 1968. '68 is a very signicant date in dog training.
I really don't care what he does to his own dogs, but to give such advice on a public forum is irresponsible.
Neil
Perhaps you mis-interpret the "whack", perhaps not. I'm saying give him a crack on the butt if he moves a muscle, not beat him. I've known a lot of retriever trainers over the years from Rex Carr to Mike Lardy and none of them "spared the rod".Neil wrote:GH,
I suspected I have finished more Field Champions than you have petted ( or whacked).
Today, there is just no need to whack a dog. And to do so is ignorant and brutal, and near criminal to give it as advice.
Sure trainers use a heeling stick, they are just not whacking dogs. And even prior to 1968 were not stupid enough to talk about it.
You can't name one training book written since 1968 that advocates dog whacking. And that is not garbage.
Irrespective of experience or dog knowledge (respectfully) ..that doesn't make You Right!...gonehuntin' wrote:Perhaps you mis-interpret the "whack", perhaps not. I'm saying give him a crack on the butt if he moves a muscle, not beat him. I've known a lot of retriever trainers over the years from Rex Carr to Mike Lardy and none of them "spared the rod".Neil wrote:GH,
I suspected I have finished more Field Champions than you have petted ( or whacked).
Today, there is just no need to whack a dog. And to do so is ignorant and brutal, and near criminal to give it as advice.
Sure trainers use a heeling stick, they are just not whacking dogs. And even prior to 1968 were not stupid enough to talk about it.
You can't name one training book written since 1968 that advocates dog whacking. And that is not garbage.
My guess is most of your experience is not in retrievers but in spaniels or pointing dogs? That would explain your view. Point is, you're wrong.
I have never advocated hurting a dog on any board I'm on. Most people consider a whack to be a shark crack. You do want to sting the dog. That's the purpose. You don't want to abuse the dog.Neil wrote:GH,
You should be ashamed of your ignorance.
Look up "Whack" in the dictionary - it is to strike forcefully with intent to harm.
1968 was the year Tri-Tronics introduced the modern e-collar.
Please quote a current trainer that advocates whacking a dog or shut up. You are doing a lot of harm. Well, you would be if anyone were gullible enough to listen to your bad, incomplete advice.
I care.
On open forum surely one reads what is said by the poster rather than what reputation lies behind them?..after all any one that reads the post can only see what is written?Sharon wrote:............................................................
The kerfluffle is over the word "whack". Based on Gonehuntin's reputation for training dogs successfully - never suggested any kind of abuse in any posts- I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt on what he meant. One of my dogs is a Jack Russell. You can be assured that he gets a "whack - slap with the hand " on the butt when needed.
He will do fine, enjoy.Double Shot Banks wrote:Just to clear things up a bit..
It is Banks' first season, he is just over a year old.
I will probably use a tie out stake and a short lead like many of you suggested.
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks
REALLY?Neil wrote:NO RESPECTED TRAINER IS ADVOCATING WHACKING A DOG!
Carefully read the above, anyone that thinks it appropriate to sharply strick a year old dog with intent to do harm having only a week to prepare him is as abusive as the poster.gonehuntin' wrote:Tempt the larcenous devil. Instead of bumpers, throw 1000 clip wings, some long, some short. Call other dogs names. You should be able to throw and shoot a blank, then loudly call another dog's name and have him sit there. He should only go on HIS name. If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
No.It's the same as the ecollar. When stimulated the collar may mean sit, go, stop. Same with the heeling stick. Means sit, go, stop. First the dog is trained with the lead and choke collar, then the stick, then the collar. It's a pressure transference.Wendy M wrote:Hold on! If a dog has been conditioned to "pressure" to compell him to GO! on a retrieve (which may or may not come from a "whack" from a heeling stick) then the dog should understand that a "Whack" means he did not Go fast enough, but then he also receives a "Whack" when he's to remain steady??? Would a "whack" for not remaining steady not do the opposite of what you intend? Would the dog not interpret the "whack" as "Must move faster next time" not "I must remain steady"?
Not arguing - just asking!
Wendy
You really have absolutely no clue do you? "sharply stick a year old dog"? Where is that in my quote? A good crack on the rear does wonders to settle a dog down.Neil wrote:Carefully read the above, anyone that thinks it appropriate to sharply strick a year old dog with intent to do harm having only a week to prepare him is as abusive as the poster.gonehuntin' wrote:Tempt the larcenous devil. Instead of bumpers, throw 1000 clip wings, some long, some short. Call other dogs names. You should be able to throw and shoot a blank, then loudly call another dog's name and have him sit there. He should only go on HIS name. If he wiggles around, whack him with a heeling stick. Challenge him; that's what he's doing to you.
Bill Clinton speaketh again. And I thought we were done with him. All dogs are larcenous devils. It's a HUMOROUS REFERENCE. Perhaps you were born without a sense of humor. Probably isn't a retriever trainer alive that hasn't referred to a dog as a "larcenous devil". He challenged the poster when, after being told to sit he didn't and did not sit quietly. That is a command refusal and a direct challenge to his authority.Neil wrote:Most of us have come to know Banks, he is not larcenous, is not the devil, and has not chalenged anyone. "Whack" has a specific meaning, tap, nudge, prod, push, are not synonyms. Rather than defend himself against the indefensibly, the poster only needed to retract, saying he misspoke.
And to know what you're speaking of. If you don't have a lot of knowledge on retrievers, don't offer it. You can get any of the good retriever DVD's out there from Judy Aycock showing it's use for indirect pressure to Lardy.Neil wrote:It is very hard to give proper advice on any forum, harder with animals, we have an obligation to be succinct or quickly correct errors.
This poster, me, gave great, current and valid advice. I would suggest Neil spend time with a retriever trainer and maybe read some of the books on retriever training line the ones by Quinn, Morgan, Wolters (D.L.), or Shoemaker then come back and dine on his words.Neil wrote:I am done with this, the poster gave poor advice
