Dog is messing with me - water retrieves

[41magsnub]

My 15 mo GWP is a natural retriever. On land she does great. When I throw a bumper or ball she holds steady until I release her, then she does a great retrieve. If she didn't see it go down, I call dead bird and she frantically searches in the direction I am walking until she finds it or I call her off. This works for us.

On water retrieves, when I throw a dummy she sits there and looks at me funny most of the time as if she is still waiting for me to throw something. She watches me throw it, tracks the dummy as it flies, and is looking right at the splash. Then she turns around and looks expectantly when released. When I call "dead bird" she sometimes swims right out to to dummy. Other times she still doesn't believe me and just looks at me. If I pick up a rock and throw it after the dummy, then she goes right to the dummy and retrieves it since she knows where it is, even if I throw it in a completely different direction than the dummy went.

Not the worst thing in the world, I guess I need to keep a few rocks in my pocket out hunting near water.

Would one of the FF programs fix this? It may not even be a problem with actual birds. She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

[duckn66]

Drop using the sticks. Make her water retrieves short at first. Maybe just far enough she can wade out to pick up the bumper. Each day gradually lengthen the water retrieves starting where you left off the day before. Only a few retrieves each day. Leave her wanting to retrieve more.

[EvanG]

My 15 mo GWP is a natural retriever....

Would one of the FF programs fix this? It may not even be a problem with actual birds. She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

A thorough and complete one would. That would include Water Force toward the end of the process. It's a problem. It's a serious problem because she is refusing your command to go as sent. Who would you prefer to be in charge?

EvanG

[polmaise]

She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

Then that may be the answer?...Try it....Amazing how something so simple as game flapping in water can 'un-lock' a sticky issue without following a program?
Let us know if it 'Doesn't work'?..

[crackerd]

She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

Then that may be the answer?...Try it....Amazing how something so simple as game flapping in water can 'un-lock' a sticky issue without following a program?

Yes, a bird dead or alive in the water is "key" to getting a dog into the water with enthusiasm. But, my esteemed colleague from the Land of the Brae, following a programme can unlock both the frustration at his dog's misdeeds for the fellow following it, and actually give the dog's development the structure it needs to be a consistent working gundog. Problem is, you've got folk who commit to a program (most being retriever trainers) and then them with "hunting dogs" who try to "short-arm" their training delivery or cherry-pick from a program with predictable results.

MG

[gonehuntin']

My 15 mo GWP is a natural retriever....

Would one of the FF programs fix this? It may not even be a problem with actual birds. She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

A thorough and complete one would. That would include Water Force toward the end of the process. It's a problem. It's a serious problem because she is refusing your command to go as sent. Who would you prefer to be in charge?

EvanG

I have never had a dog I didn't force so that is the ultimate answer and Evan's program is, indeed, a very good one.

Until then throw a shallow water retrieve and if she doesn't go, walk out there with her. Sounds like for some reason she's confused. No sticks or rocks. Walk her out and show her what you want. As Evan said, letting a dog refuse a command can lead to a lot of issues later.

[polmaise]

She has yet to have an opportunity to do a water retrieve of a bird, just dummies and sticks thus far.

Then that may be the answer?...Try it....Amazing how something so simple as game flapping in water can 'un-lock' a sticky issue without following a program?

Yes, a bird dead or alive in the water is "key" to getting a dog into the water with enthusiasm. But, my esteemed colleague from the Land of the Brae, following a programme can unlock both the frustration at his dog's misdeeds for the fellow following it, and actually give the dog's development the structure it needs to be a consistent working gundog. Problem is, you've got folk who commit to a program (most being retriever trainers) and then them with "hunting dogs" who try to "short-arm" their training delivery or cherry-pick from a program with predictable results.

MG

Should be a politician MG !
Unlock the door first to enter the garden. Then you will see all the flowers.
Many have a 'Rose' already? So the thorns have not been encountered.
Better getting a Prick' first hand than a petal that withers away with time.

Asking 'sheeple' to follow a program may well be the way for most!............So why are so many on a program having issues?.......Except those of esteemed colleague of course
I digress.....Original issue ...Dog no-go on water retrieve?..right?.....Unlock the No-go, by getting it in the water!.....Then follow your intended path?
Program says ''''No, No ,No No'' you must do xyz!...bullshit!......Do what works! ...and if that means 'get in and get wet' then 'hey ho'!....Issue resolved ..move on and march on!
.......
Or?..........You could follow a program

[crackerd]

Asking 'sheeple' to follow a program may well be the way for most!............So why are so many on a program having issues?.......Except those of esteemed colleague of course
I digress.....Original issue ...Dog no-go on water retrieve?..right?.....Unlock the No-go, by getting it in the water!.....Then follow your intended path?
Program says ''''No, No ,No No'' you must do xyz!...bullshit!......Do what works! ...and if that means 'get in and get wet' then 'hey ho'!....Issue resolved ..move on and march on!
.......
Or?..........You could follow a program

Robt., all that's well and good - but a retriever program ain't what instructs you or your dog on going for water marks. So there is no ''No, No ,No No'' you must do xyz!..." when it comes to marks - or no-gos on marks. We don't command dogs to go for marks, we release them by sending on their names. If you have to command a dog to go for a water mark, you're right, you better do what it takes before ever starting to follow a program.

But them who do follow a program - whatever their variation on it, and however it matches up with their own training experience - doesn't square with "why are so many on a program having issues." Curious now: Who they? if you care to share.

MG

[gonehuntin']

[quote="polmaiseMG[/quote]
Asking 'sheeple' to follow a program may well be the way for most!............So why are so many on a program having issues?.......Except those of esteemed colleague of course
[/quote]

When most have trouble with a program, it's because they haven't followed it or changed the sequence of the program.

[polmaise]

We don't command dogs to go for marks, we release them by sending on their names. If you have to command a dog to go for a water mark, you're right, you better do what it takes before ever starting to follow a program.

But them who do follow a program - whatever their variation on it, and however it matches up with their own training experience - doesn't square with "why are so many on a program having issues." Curious now: Who they? if you care to share.

MG

Neither do 'we' on marks ! (or those that train gundogs)
For 'Them' !...that would be all the folks on a program that have an issue of course ....If there is one thing I personally have learned/gleamed from US discussions, is
Quote " I am currently using x program ,but my dog is ....."
Perhaps the program is right ,but only for the 'right people'?....
Just a thought?.....as for (getting back on thread)......The op doesn't require a program ,to get his/her dog in the water, but merely a direction on 'how to get it in the water'?

[polmaise]

[quote="polmaiseMG

Asking 'sheeple' to follow a program may well be the way for most!............So why are so many on a program having issues?.......Except those of esteemed colleague of course
[/quote]

When most have trouble with a program, it's because they haven't followed it or changed the sequence of the program.[/quote]
Maybe so!..But 'It is 'THEIR' dog'?...and you or I , or the originator of the program can say otherwise?

[crackerd]

Robt., don't missing the forest for the trees atop that ol' brae - it ain't "sheeple" who follow a program, it's them who want to train - cap-T Train - their gundogs, namely retrievers, to a higher level. If'n you cannae discern that from your time on US retriever forums, may be prudent to caution you on VAT that must be paid on any potential purchase of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Gonehuntin' got it right - the cherry-picking and not sticking to the step-by approach is where it all goes wrong for the "pseudo-programmers."

MG

[polmaise]

I hear you MG , I must be the worst salesman in the world!
I just can't get away from doing what works???. Doh! ...If you want to get wet you gotta get in the water

S1120001.JPG

[Hern]

Sometimes there's just not enough rocks.

[41magsnub]

Update on this - 100% resolved. Retrieving a couple of ducks and a pheasant in the water solved it, she seems to have made the connection. I may have to pitch a rock as a redirection tool if she is having trouble finding the dummy while already out in the water - but she is definitely motivated now.

The we got the ducks jump hunting the Missouri taking a break from chasing pheasants. The pheasant I had to engineer a little with a overly shot up bird, the stock pond, a buddy, and the shotgun one afternoon after working the fields.

Edit - the other thing that helped is I had her retrieving next to my Mom's old lab to add a little pressure. If Maddie didn't get the dummy, Beemer would which Maddie just could not tolerate!

[Swampbilly]

Retrievingte="41magsnub"]Update on this - 100% resolved. Retrieving a couple of ducks and a pheasant in the water solved it, she seems to have made the connection. I may have to pitch a rock as a redirection tool if she is having trouble finding the dummy while already out in the water - but she is definitely motivated now.

The we got the ducks jump hunting the Missouri taking a break from chasing pheasants. The pheasant I had to engineer a little with a overly shot up bird, the stock pond, a buddy, and the shotgun one afternoon after working the fields.

Edit - the other thing that helped is I had her retrieving next to my Mom's old lab to add a little pressure. If Maddie didn't get the dummy, Beemer would which Maddie just could not tolerate! [/quote]
'Hmmm.
'41-
Respectfully-
Retrieving a few ducks and pheasants in water and still having to throw rocks to "cue" the dog to a mark isn't "100% resolved". Neither is the "competition" from the other dog.
Respectfully you may think it is, but I'd bet my next paycheck if you toss those birds in water , get rid of the rocks, and
kennel the other dog, pup may still lack some confidence and aint' marking.
You need to get some marks out in front of your dog not always thrown from your side.



other dog,

[41magsnub]

You are jumping to conclusions based on a brief update and not seeing the dog. You are wrong.

I'll take cash or a bank check, no personal checks please.

[Swampbilly]

You are jumping to conclusions based on a brief update and not seeing the dog. You are wrong.

I'll take cash or a bank check, no personal checks please.

Gotcha', ...my bad.
Silly of me to even stretch the crazy idea that 7mos later you shouldn't need rocks..
Must've read this wrong-

Update on this - 100% resolved. Retrieving a couple of ducks and a pheasant in the water solved it, she seems to have made the connection. I may have to pitch a rock as a redirection tool if she is having trouble finding the dummy while already out in the water -

You'll have to forgive me for "going over the top" and turning this into Rock-et science..

[gundogguy]

My 15 mo GWP is a natural retriever. On land she does great. When I throw a bumper or ball she holds steady until I release her, then she does a great retrieve. If she didn't see it go down, I call dead bird and she frantically searches in the direction I am walking until she finds it or I call her off. This works for us.

On water retrieves, when I throw a dummy she sits there and looks at me funny most of the time as if she is still waiting for me to throw something. She watches me throw it, tracks the dummy as it flies, and is looking right at the splash. Then she turns around and looks expectantly when released. When I call "dead bird" she sometimes swims right out to to dummy. Other times she still doesn't believe me and just looks at me. If I pick up a rock and throw it after the dummy, then she goes right to the dummy and retrieves it

Not the worst thing in the world, I guess I need to keep a few rocks in my pocket out hunting near water.

In the trade we call this "accidental behavior" if it works for you have a established a "standard" . A concise precise program of FF can help you elevate your standards. If having a dog to be all it can be is not important do not attempt FF, you might end with much more dog than you bargained for.

[Swampbilly]

My 15 mo GWP is a natural retriever. On land she does great. When I throw a bumper or ball she holds steady until I release her, then she does a great retrieve. If she didn't see it go down, I call dead bird and she frantically searches in the direction I am walking until she finds it or I call her off. This works for us.

On water retrieves, when I throw a dummy she sits there and looks at me funny most of the time as if she is still waiting for me to throw something. She watches me throw it, tracks the dummy as it flies, and is looking right at the splash. Then she turns around and looks expectantly when released. When I call "dead bird" she sometimes swims right out to to dummy. Other times she still doesn't believe me and just looks at me. If I pick up a rock and throw it after the dummy, then she goes right to the dummy and retrieves it

Not the worst thing in the world, I guess I need to keep a few rocks in my pocket out hunting near water.

In the trade we call this "accidental behavior" if it works for you have a established a "standard" . A concise precise program of FF can help you elevate your standards. If having a dog to be all it can be is not important do not attempt FF, you might end with much more dog than you bargained for.

+1
Yeah'- like.... perhaps a reliable, confident working Gundog !

[EvanG]

In the words of the late Hall of Fame trainer Rex Carr, "Just train the dog." Take this dog thoroughly and completely through a full course in a modern sequential force fetch program that ends with Water Force.

EvanG

[whoadog]

Ok, I know I am late to the party but no one has pointed out what to me is a rather obvious question? Have you had the dog's eyes checked by your vet? Throws into water are typically made against the blue sky with little for bumper to contrast against. It is more difficult to see than against a backdrop which provides shadows. A live bird is flopping around, is typically larger with more of a profile,maybe making noise and is much easier to see. With all due respect to trainers with more accolades than me, no program will fix a dog that can't see. I have a very personal reason for suggesting this possibility. I have a 6 year old lab with progressive retinal atrophy. He is now stone blind. I noticed two problems when he was about 16 months: He had trouble with blinds over 75' yards and any marks over water. Blinds up to 75 yards were flawless but he always broke down and hunted out from there no matter what drills we tried. Ducks over water were nailed every time but bumpers were only about 50/50. The longer the mark, the less likely he was to make it. While I hope it is not the case, your problem reminds me of my own dog, especially using rocks to help the dog to locate the bird in water. My dog was not always retrieving because he did not know it was there to be retrieved.

[whoadog]

Yielded second in a google search from:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/germanwirehairedpointer.htm

"Some lines are prone to hip dysplasia, ear infections, genetic eye diseases and skin cancers."

The first result is from a pet health insurance site that references eye problems including entropion, ectropion and progressive retinal atrophy.

Again, I hope this is not the case but it is something I would check if I found myself in your shoes.