A question on Boldness and Search

[Thornapple]

I would like to ask those of you that have experienced the difference between a young pack puppy (17 months) and another of the same breed that is not in a pack. Let me explain the situation and the question.
I have a 17 month old male that I wanted to start developing confidence in the field. I wrote about this elsewhere in this Forum and I have been working on getting it to gain confidence by not needing to constantly check in with me, and become more independent and bold in the field. I have been working with birds I plant throughout the 60 acre field more and more each time we go out. It is working as many of you suggested (without e-collar and no commands). However I wanted to test something else.
I borrowed his litter mate that is totally untrained. She is the runt of the litter, could not be placed by the breeder, but otherwise is very healthy. She runs in a pack of 11 other dogs of the same breed in an enclosed fenced five acre field. These are not "kennel dogs" with separate runs. As the runt she has had to fend for herself with the matriarchs of the pack and I noticed watching her she showed a lot of spirit which seem to be required to find her place in the pack. So I took her out on a check cord with many birds planted in launchers just to see how she would do.
The result astonished me, but maybe I shouldn't be that is why I am writing. She immediately high tailed it through the tall grass and soybean field like a possessed jack rabbit. In fact she self regulated her speed as i noticed she ran through scent a number of times until doubling back and realizing she missed something. After that she paced herself but never looked for me or her breeder. She ran further than my puppy with a constant zig-zag search pattern. Her point was solid, but of course it was not in control with the flushed bird as I did expect it to be.
So my question is this. Does anyone have experience with a young dog living in a pack situation before training and its demonstrating strong, bold, unrestrained drive? That is compared to the puppy taken to a family environment either as the solo or brace mate to another dog that is usually the "established" household pet. Both dogs are litter mates, but both have developed differently. Is this an individual dog characteristic, an environmental condition caused by having to survive in a pack, or some of both? Does anyone know or have an opinion?

[smittty]

Why be surprised sounds to me like they are just two well bred dogs...Remember you don't need to teach a well bred dog to hunt you just need to put obedience behind them

[Thornapple]

Yes Smitty that was my first reaction. However I was simply curious if what I experienced is more common than not.
Thornapple

[Sharon]

"Does anyone have experience with a young dog living in a pack situation before training and its demonstrating strong, bold, unrestrained drive." quote

I don't think you can connect a bold runt from a pack to equalling more independence. It could all be in the genes. 9 pups in a litter , aw we know , have varying temperaments. It could be simply because she is a runt . Many stories of runts being exceptional, but not enough to make a case. I have a runt who shows tremendous drive but not raised in an open kennel pack. Many variables possible.

[DonF]

Pup sounds fine to me. I have an idea your over thinking this. When I got Duke here he was a disaster. 10 mos old and never out of the kennel and kenneled with an alpha male his age. He hated rides in the car, afraid of grass over his ankles, bit gun shy and very insecure. Three months later had you see Duke in the beginning you would not believe it was the same dog. My great plan? I turned him loose and let him discover himself! First time I saw him jump through the driver window I was in shock.

[Sharon]

Pup sounds fine to me. I have an idea your over thinking this. When I got Duke here he was a disaster. 10 mos old and never out of the kennel and kenneled with an alpha male his age. He hated rides in the car, afraid of grass over his ankles, bit gun shy and very insecure. Three months later had you see Duke in the beginning you would not believe it was the same dog. My great plan? I turned him loose and let him discover himself! First time I saw him jump through the driver window I was in shock.

Too funny. Your expertise made all the difference I'm sure.

[Neil]

I am uncomfortable with the whole "pack" thing. We can never know why an animal does anything, we can know what they will do in respose to certain stimulation, action, and environment, so I don't even care about the why.

So you are over thinking it to no important result.

To put it more specifically, I just know one pup shows less hunt and drive, and you have been instructed on how to change it.

Concern yourself in what to do to get the resilts you want.

[Thornapple]

Sharon, Neil, and DonF,
Interesting response. You are probably right. I was obviously trying to equate the statement made by Woody Hayes, "Give me a kid who is the shortest, least likely to succeed by those around him, but has heart and drive; and I will show you ambition, willingness to take on the impossible, and ultimately someone I want on our football team." Thanks and we will see how far this puppy can go!
Thornapple

[Winchey]

You tried to put too much handle on your dog too early and didn't allow it enough independence, the other one was allowed to develop on its own without a lot of handler interferance, it is no wonder one is more independant than the other.

The roles could have been completely reversed if you had of taken the run and the breeder kept your dog.

There is know way to tell from your story.

And for your question I have seen dogs that are terribly socialized with people and dogs that are very bold and independant, dogs that are well socialized, dogs that live with a bunch of other dogs and dogs that live with no others dogs.

[will-kelly]

Pack mentality & the whole runt thing gets in the way of humans understanding dogs because we try and relate it to our own experiences. We all assume it's the weakest one that couldn't fend for itself the kid that never fit in.

In the wild it would have never survived.

This is a total bunch of crap. If the theory that only the strongest and biggest survive held true the earth would be covered with oversized animals and 200 lb dogs.

I own a runt. "A little skinny and not a very good eater" when I got her from the breeder. She is the one no one wanted out of 10 pups. I just wanted a dog so I didn't really care if the field trialers wanted other members of the litter. At a little over 2 she is still a little skinny. Eats 4-6 cups of food a day and is solid mussel and bones. Her metabolism is off the charts and she can hunt grouse for 6 hours and never slows down. She will swim for 2 solid hours never leaving the lake just swimming in circles chasing the ducks and geese. Put her in a bird field and she's great. Put a lot of pressure on her and she'll break and chase until the cows come home.

She was attacked by a ground hog, a jack russell and gashed in the eye by a cockbird all before the age of one. After surviving all of this there are times where she still lacks confidence. Times when her tail is low.(I know I am the cause of this.)

Your pup lacks confidence and your expectations at this point are unrealistic. Confidence comes from experience not marks, pointing drills and running with bolder dogs. It doesn't come from a pack but the complete opposite. Individual dogs are just that individual. They develop at completely different paces. Some will hunt close and others in the next county.

Stop comparing your dog to other dogs and your ridiculous human expectations. If you're watching the other dog's zig zag and really believe your dog doesn't stack up then maybe it's you. Developmentally your dog is where you have taken it in it's training. Figure out what your dog needs to build it's confidence. Let the dog run and it will grow into the dog it is supposed to be.

[mountaindogs]

I agree. Its the freedom to grow, not the other dogs. I do also think runt dogs are sometimes more "pushy " but this can be an asset or a curse depending on many factors. And then some little ones stay shy and nervous. Again depends on many factors.

[QuailHollow]

I have found that running dogs in a packs makes the good ones more *competitive* with other dogs, but, does not bring out any special qualities that they don't already posses. If they're not bold, they're not bold. Period.

My case in point: http://youtu.be/zZxg-vwz1M4

[Neil]

I have found that running dogs in a packs makes the good ones more *competitive* with other dogs, but, does not bring out any special qualities that they don't already posses. If they're not bold, they're not bold. Period.

My case in point: http://youtu.be/zZxg-vwz1M4

To be clear, flocking puppies is a lot different than keeping several in a 5 acre yard.