Are E-Collars really necessary?

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jbwardfamily
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Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by jbwardfamily » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:13 am

Hi all,

I am about to pick up a Brittany pup in a couple of weeks and will be training her to do a little hunting. She will be primarily a house pet and not a hard core hunter. My question is are E-Collars really necessary for adequate training? What did people do before E-Collars were around? My dad trained English Pointers and never had them so I have never seen the benefits.

What are the pros and cons?

Thanks.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:28 pm

Welcome aboard

As for the e collar...The E collars of today are far more advanced then the Shock collars of yesterday.
An E collar is there to help maintain the training that is taught should the dog decide to test their parameters you can help cue them ...or if they are headed to chase unwanted quarry you can help stop that undesired chase.

In the old days some of the things that were resorted to was pretty tough if you had a willful dog and those dogs that were softer many of them failed to being a good dog to hunt behind..

An E collar when done right can be the most useful tool that is rarely ever needed but when you need it it sure can prevent many undesired behaviors out in the field from becoming a habit
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by whoadog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:51 pm

Short answer to your post title is "no", but I can drive a nail with rock if I want. I usually use a hammer though. B.E.C. (before e-collars) I used a check cord and a good pair of running shoes. Much easier to push down with my thumb to discourage a dog from participating in behaviors that I don't want to see, i.e. refusing recall. Pros: e-collars are a incredibly useful tool for enforcing commands already taught or, with the use of low levels of stimulation, encouraging wanted behaviors. Cons: they don't make up for a lack of understanding on the trainers part on how dogs learn or an unfamiliarity with good training methods. By the way, welcome and good luck with your dog.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by rinker » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:52 pm

Of course it isn't necessary.

I do think that when used correctly an ecollar does make it much easier for a dog to learn.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by sdoliver » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:09 pm

I like to think of them as an "aggravation collar" I use a low enough stimulation that it is more like an aggravation than pain. Kind of like that little kid in the back seat saying"Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" You want to do what ever you can to get him to just shut up . The collar is the same type of aggravation. Once the dog knows how to do what is wanted, it will learn it "MUST" to do it turn off that stupid collar.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:12 pm

I never saw the point either till I started using one and saw the difference
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:28 pm

What did we do in the old days?
We had to run down a disobedient dog until you were too old to do so. Some used horses to run down the dog - not literally. :) Some shot buckshot in rear ends. For beagles, we took a tent and had to camp out until the dog decided to come back . Thank God for e collars. :wink:
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:44 pm

jbwardfamily wrote:Hi all,

I am about to pick up a Brittany pup in a couple of weeks and will be training her to do a little hunting. She will be primarily a house pet and not a hard core hunter. My question is are E-Collars really necessary for adequate training? What did people do before E-Collars were around? My dad trained English Pointers and never had them so I have never seen the benefits.

What are the pros and cons?

Thanks.
For adequate training No they are not necessary!
Look up Lardy, and he would say the same!......If you are just doing the odd hunting then the 'proper collar conditioning' and any programme with e-collar would not be of benefit.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by crackerd » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:08 pm

polmaise wrote:
jbwardfamily wrote:Hi all,

I am about to pick up a Brittany pup in a couple of weeks and will be training her to do a little hunting. She will be primarily a house pet and not a hard core hunter. My question is are E-Collars really necessary for adequate training? What did people do before E-Collars were around? My dad trained English Pointers and never had them so I have never seen the benefits.

What are the pros and cons?

Thanks.
For adequate training No they are not necessary!
Look up Lardy, and he would say the same!......If you are just doing the odd hunting then the 'proper collar conditioning' and any programme with e-collar would not be of benefit.
Robt., "adequate training" for pointing dogs is using the e-collar reactively, like this
whoadog wrote:Much easier to push down with my thumb to discourage a dog from participating in behaviors that I don't want to see, i.e. refusing recall.
The way Mike Lardy - and 99% of retriever trainers - use it is not "pushing the thumb down" to correct a dog. It's having the dog conditioned with the e-collar, as you said, to the known (and carried out) commands of here, heel and sit - and integrating those commands into a training program based on the e-collar. You won't find the e-collar necessary unless you're following an e-collar training program. Don't think there are any such programs for pointing dogs, certainly not that espouse indirect pressure - just "pushing down the button" for refusals or disobedience.

MG

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by BellaSpinone » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:29 pm

Before ecollars "Lots of cussing".

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:32 pm

crackerd wrote:
polmaise wrote:
jbwardfamily wrote:Hi all,

I am about to pick up a Brittany pup in a couple of weeks and will be training her to do a little hunting. She will be primarily a house pet and not a hard core hunter. My question is are E-Collars really necessary for adequate training? What did people do before E-Collars were around? My dad trained English Pointers and never had them so I have never seen the benefits.

What are the pros and cons?

Thanks.
For adequate training No they are not necessary!
Look up Lardy, and he would say the same!......If you are just doing the odd hunting then the 'proper collar conditioning' and any programme with e-collar would not be of benefit.
Robt., "adequate training" for pointing dogs is using the e-collar reactively, like this
whoadog wrote:Much easier to push down with my thumb to discourage a dog from participating in behaviors that I don't want to see, i.e. refusing recall.
The way Mike Lardy - and 99% of retriever trainers - use it is not "pushing the thumb down" to correct a dog. It's having the dog conditioned with the e-collar, as you said, to the known (and carried out) commands of here, heel and sit - and integrating those commands into a training program based on the e-collar. You won't find the e-collar necessary unless you're following an e-collar training program. Don't think there are any such programs for pointing dogs, certainly not that espouse indirect pressure - just "pushing down the button" for refusals or disobedience.

MG
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Of course an e-collar is not required.

Think of it as a mile long checkcord. No more...no less.

Having an e-collar does not mean the trainer can skip training steps or short cut them. The e-collar should typically be used only to "remind' the dog of a behavior that has already been taught to the dog by more conventional means(checkcord, heeling stick, wonder lead, etc) with the dog close to you.

Use of an e-collar as anything different than this requires training the trainer first, or you will be in a mess, IMO.

Properly used, an e-collar can reinforce taught behaviors by applying a correction at the instant it is needed, when the dog gets out away from you. This makes training much more effective and less stressful for the dog because undesirable behaviors do not get a chance to take hold.

RayG

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:08 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Welcome aboard

As for the e collar...The E collars of today are far more advanced then the Shock collars of yesterday.
An E collar is there to help maintain the training that is taught should the dog decide to test their parameters you can help cue them ...or if they are headed to chase unwanted quarry you can help stop that undesired chase.

In the old days some of the things that were resorted to was pretty tough if you had a willful dog and those dogs that were softer many of them failed to being a good dog to hunt behind..

An E collar when done right can be the most useful tool that is rarely ever needed but when you need it it sure can prevent many undesired behaviors out in the field from becoming a habit
Right on

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Neil » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:54 pm

Sharon wrote:What did we do in the old days?
We had to run down a disobedient dog until you were too old to do so. Some used horses to run down the dog - not literally. :) Some shot buckshot in rear ends. For beagles, we took a tent and had to camp out until the dog decided to come back . Thank God for e collars. :wink:
Sharon,

We did not shoot them with buckshot, which are just smaller than a. 22 and would kill them, they are used for deer. We shot them with birdshot, some even carrying 9's. It was still barbaric, but it was before we knew better.

Robert Millner trains without an e-collar, so it can be done.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:58 pm

LOL That's right. Birdshot. :)
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:05 pm

An e-collar is not necessary . I joined this forum to learn how to use them for things other than aversive training for sheep chasing dogs. I have taught several dogs that sheep chasing is a definite no-no by using a collar but despite all that I have learned I am still ....I think "afraid" is the right word ..... to use one for anything other than aversive training. I would need 1-2-1 lessons from a very experienced e-collar trainer before I used one for everyday training.

I am no spring chicken and if I had to I would use an e-collar for everyday training. Within the last year or so I have managed to train a deer and rabbit and hare chasing vizsla not to chase them without having to use an e-collar. Within the last month I have managed to train my 10-11 months old Brittany not to chase rabbits and today I stopped her dead in her tracks with one whistle blast as she was running right behind a hare. I know she will probably chase the very next one she sees but I plod along in my own sweet way and usually get what I want in the end without ever having used my e-collar. I seldom ever put a checkcord on a dog either but that is a different subject and at least check-cords don't cost much and are a bit less likely to cause actual harm to a dogs training if misuse of one of them is compared to misuse of an e-collar.

So , no , e-collars are not essential but if you really know what you are doing with one I think it would be a useful tool to have in the box.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by deseeker » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:38 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Of course an e-collar is not required.

Think of it as a mile long checkcord. No more...no less.

Having an e-collar does not mean the trainer can skip training steps or short cut them. The e-collar should typically be used only to "remind' the dog of a behavior that has already been taught to the dog by more conventional means(checkcord, heeling stick, wonder lead, etc) with the dog close to you.

Use of an e-collar as anything different than this requires training the trainer first, or you will be in a mess, IMO.

Properly used, an e-collar can reinforce taught behaviors by applying a correction at the instant it is needed, when the dog gets out away from you. This makes training much more effective and less stressful for the dog because undesirable behaviors do not get a chance to take hold.

RayG
+1

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:32 am

RayGubernat wrote:Of course an e-collar is not required.

Think of it as a mile long checkcord. No more...no less.

Having an e-collar does not mean the trainer can skip training steps or short cut them. The e-collar should typically be used only to "remind' the dog of a behavior that has already been taught to the dog by more conventional means(checkcord, heeling stick, wonder lead, etc) with the dog close to you.

Use of an e-collar as anything different than this requires training the trainer first, or you will be in a mess, IMO.

Properly used, an e-collar can reinforce taught behaviors by applying a correction at the instant it is needed, when the dog gets out away from you. This makes training much more effective and less stressful for the dog because undesirable behaviors do not get a chance to take hold.

RayG
I absolutely agree with RayG.
However, in the subject of use with 'sheep chasers' when used as stated as an aversive ? How can this be related to the dog 'If it has already learned a behaviour' ie ...chase sheep?
If this "The e-collar should typically be used only to "remind' the dog of a behavior that has already been taught " Is True, then surely a conditioning process to the collar must be completed prior to the aversive?..Does it not? anyone explain -help me understand?...Taking that further, If in the hands of some-one who has either no experience of e-collar conditioning and the dog has previously had no association with the 'consequences' ,How does the dog 'learn' Not to chase sheep?

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:39 am

The dog doesn't learn not to chase sheep but it does learn that chasing sheep isn't much fun anymore so it quits.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:03 am

Not All !
Quote : "trainer put a golden retriever in with sheep (it was in for training as was a sheep chaser).Used Collar on High setting when Dog moved towards sheep. The golden retriever killed the sheep! Trainer said it would never be safe around sheep."

I don't think It's that easy ?

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:34 am

"I don't think it is that easy."

I think Polmaise is correct. I have been told of a dog that still attacked sheep while wearing a collar set to it's highest level. I do not know for sure why that could happen. There could be a few reasons. (1) The collar wasn't put on tightly enough. (2) The electric prongs on the collar weren't long enough to get right through to the skin of a thickly coated dog (3) The collar had an electrical malfunction of some kind.(4) The dog had a very high resistance level due to it's high level of excitement. ?????
I don't know how it could happen but if done properly then dogs do stop chasing sheep. I.M.O. the first time a dog is shocked during a chase it is uncertain whether the sheep caused the pain or the "place" caused the pain. I have seen dogs that would chase sheep in one place but not do it in other places. A repeat of the aversion training should be done with other sheep in other places. I think that does help make the dog believe the sheep could somehow hurt it.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by EvanG » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:27 am

jbwardfamily wrote:Hi all,

I am about to pick up a Brittany pup in a couple of weeks and will be training her to do a little hunting. She will be primarily a house pet and not a hard core hunter. My question is are E-Collars really necessary for adequate training?
It's hard not to elaborate, but I'll try to be brief. "No", e-collars are not 'necessary'. Nail drivers are not necessary for carpenters either. They're just more efficient than hammers.
jbwardfamily wrote:What did people do before E-Collars were around?
They ran out and made ill timed corrections, or shot them with .22 bird shot, or light loads of #8 shot with shotguns, or used stock prods. Hideous to think about, but that's a fact, and most of the best pros did it.
jbwardfamily wrote:My dad trained English Pointers and never had them so I have never seen the benefits.

What are the pros and cons?
The pros: instant timing, no limits on distance, and corrections can be made regardless of what direction the dog is facing. A better quality of fieldwork than was ever possible before, and a far more humane tool to use for correction.

The cons: largely a matter of perception, but the #1 con is an idiot holding the transmitter. Ignorance of proper use is paired with the first.
jbwardfamily wrote:Thanks.
Anytime.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by crackerd » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:24 am

ezzy333 wrote:The dog doesn't learn not to chase sheep but it does learn that chasing sheep isn't much fun anymore so it quits.
That's a perfect analogy - especially for beginners with birddogs - for using the e-collar without a program for how to go about it.

In sum, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression with the e-collar, and good luck getting that dog to stop clinging to your boots.

MG

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:28 am

Trekmoor wrote:"I don't think it is that easy."

I think Polmaise is correct. I have been told of a dog that still attacked sheep while wearing a collar set to it's highest level. I do not know for sure why that could happen. There could be a few reasons. (1) The collar wasn't put on tightly enough. (2) The electric prongs on the collar weren't long enough to get right through to the skin of a thickly coated dog (3) The collar had an electrical malfunction of some kind.(4) The dog had a very high resistance level due to it's high level of excitement. ?????
I don't know how it could happen but if done properly then dogs do stop chasing sheep. I.M.O. the first time a dog is shocked during a chase it is uncertain whether the sheep caused the pain or the "place" caused the pain. I have seen dogs that would chase sheep in one place but not do it in other places. A repeat of the aversion training should be done with other sheep in other places. I think that does help make the dog believe the sheep could somehow hurt it.

Bill T.

More than likely, the dog was not conditioned to the collar and was associating the pain with the sheep causing the pain. It's the same when trying to get an aggressive dog to not \go after another dog. They think that the dog caused the pain and started the fight.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by whoadog » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:37 am

The way Mike Lardy - and 99% of retriever trainers - use it is not "pushing the thumb down" to correct a dog. It's having the dog conditioned with the e-collar, as you said, to the known (and carried out) commands of here, heel and sit - and integrating those commands into a training program based on the e-collar. You won't find the e-collar necessary unless you're following an e-collar training program. Don't think there are any such programs for pointing dogs, certainly not that espouse indirect pressure - just "pushing down the button" for refusals or disobedience.

MG[/quote]
I didn't say it was necessary, just easier. And, with certain dogs, I have never needed it for outright refusals of commands, but, after enough dogs, you will hit one that takes a burn every now and again to understand who the boss is. IMHO, an e-collar is no different than a leash, properly used it's a great tool but in the hands of someone who does not understand what they are doing, they can be ruinous to a good dog. I gave a short answer to the question and did not intend engage in a debate on how collars should be used, but.....

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:40 am

polmaise wrote:Not All !
Quote : "trainer put a golden retriever in with sheep (it was in for training as was a sheep chaser).Used Collar on High setting when Dog moved towards sheep. The golden retriever killed the sheep! Trainer said it would never be safe around sheep."

I don't think It's that easy ?
I don't know what brand e-collar was used or how skilled the pro, but with a fully charged TriTronics proper attached, set on the highest level, I an render the dog immobile, not unlike a Taser. The dog is not killing anything.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:07 am

In terms of talking about modern e-Collars, one thing that has helped me to focus on is the difference between low-level stim and a high setting that is a clear punishment. I have a half-mile collar that is not the strongest out there, but for that collar, the lowest setting is basically a buzz when I use the collar on myself. Not painful on me, and my dog I'm sure has a higher pain tolerance. Up around 75% of the possible settings, the collar really starts to hurt. I am not an experienced dog trainer, but, for me, I've found the lower stim levels very easy to use to assist in training, and in particular for recalls.

For the higher settings, I think of them as most useful in training the dog to avoid trashcans, snakes, etc. through using the collar as a clear aversive. When the dog is highly stimulated and so pain tolerances are up, I have had to go up in stim levels for things like recalls as well, but that's not the norm.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by DonF » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:48 am

Not necessary. all he things mentioned can be done without the e-collar and without the shotgun. What the e-collar does is allows the dog to move forward faster. If your teaching here on the check cord, you teach till the dog understands the command and then introduce the e-collar. If you don't used the e-collar, the dog stays on the check cord a lot longer. The completely well trained dog is a product of repetition that create's habit's. To get the dog to obey the habits better out farther require's either more time on the check cord, much more, or the use of an e-collar. I've watched a good number of very well trained obedience dogs years ago, up to UD degree's. They are unbelievable to watch and they were not trained with e-collars. In fact they were trained with 6' leash's. They were not moved away from the handler until they were absolutely perfect at 6'. Watching a dog do a long down a 6' doesn't seem like much. watching the same dog do it down the road at a much greater distance it great. Watching a UD dog work entirely on hand signals will blow your mind! I doubt that that degree of training in an obedience dog could be accomplished faster with an e-collar. It's repetition over and over till the dog has the habit ingrained. Field dog is a different animal but still a dog. You could do all we see without the e-collar but it would take a lot longer. As for riding down the dog with a horse, sort of. What happens is the dog drags a check cord and the rider gives the command. If it's not followed, he shuts his mouth runs down the dog gives the command again and get's the horse to step on the check cord. I doubt anyone does that anymore, the e-collar has made it obsolete. Never believe that you really need an e-collar to train a dog and never doubt the magic in one used right.
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by crackerd » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:24 am

DonF wrote:I've watched a good number of very well trained obedience dogs years ago, up to UD degree's. They are unbelievable to watch and they were not trained with e-collars. In fact they were trained with 6' leash's. They were not moved away from the handler until they were absolutely perfect at 6'. Watching a dog do a long down a 6' doesn't seem like much. watching the same dog do it down the road at a much greater distance it great. Watching a UD dog work entirely on hand signals will blow your mind! I doubt that that degree of training in an obedience dog could be accomplished faster with an e-collar.
Believe you were the gent who said somewhere that he "really needed to go see a retriever trial."

Yup, you do.

The two-time defending National Obedience Champion (a little further up than UD) and World Cup obedience champion is a former field trial American Labrador trained through a retriever program with the e-collar.

MG

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by DonF » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:42 pm

crackerd wrote:
DonF wrote:I've watched a good number of very well trained obedience dogs years ago, up to UD degree's. They are unbelievable to watch and they were not trained with e-collars. In fact they were trained with 6' leash's. They were not moved away from the handler until they were absolutely perfect at 6'. Watching a dog do a long down a 6' doesn't seem like much. watching the same dog do it down the road at a much greater distance it great. Watching a UD dog work entirely on hand signals will blow your mind! I doubt that that degree of training in an obedience dog could be accomplished faster with an e-collar.
Believe you were the gent who said somewhere that he "really needed to go see a retriever trial."

Yup, you do.

The two-time defending National Obedience Champion (a little further up than UD) and World Cup obedience champion is a former field trial American Labrador trained through a retriever program with the e-collar.

MG
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by whoadog » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:13 pm

Nutmeg247 wrote: and my dog I'm sure has a higher pain tolerance.
How do you know? My experience is, for the most part just the opposite. I've seen dogs react like they had been burned to levels I could not even feel. I think most dogs can feel even the lowest settings on most collars and learn quite quickly how to turn them off because the sensation is so distasteful to them. Pain tolerance, of course, is different dog to dog. Just wondering how you established your dog's threshhold is higher than yours.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:09 pm

whoadog wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote: and my dog I'm sure has a higher pain tolerance.
How do you know? My experience is, for the most part just the opposite. I've seen dogs react like they had been burned to levels I could not even feel. I think most dogs can feel even the lowest settings on most collars and learn quite quickly how to turn them off because the sensation is so distasteful to them. Pain tolerance, of course, is different dog to dog. Just wondering how you established your dog's threshhold is higher than yours.
Well, as one example, last Sunday when we got home from a morning outing in the hills he had some prickly pear spines in both two legs and the pads of one paw -- and he hadn't shown any discomfort, and even while picking the spines out he didn't flinch or whine. Once he came back on a recall with a nail broken in half, bleeding fairly steadily, and hadn't limped at all on the way back.

Collar-wise, the lowest setting on his collar just doesn't seem to bother him, at all. He's aware of it, but in a way similar to my being aware of my partner asking me to do something. I can't know what his heart rate or other stress levels are doing at the time, of course. But, based on what I subjectively see, including how happy he is to see the collar come out, and even how he will flinch or show distress in other situations, but not from low levels of stim from the collar, I'm pretty confident that he's not stressing from low levels of stim. I'd contrast his reaction to low levels of stim to his reaction to things like wearing a bell or my using his collar in vibration/pager mode, which does clearly cause distress.

I'm sure some other dogs find low levels of stim more uncomfortable, of course.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by EvanG » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:22 am

whoadog wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote: and my dog I'm sure has a higher pain tolerance.
How do you know?
If you know how to pressure condition (a central portion of e-collar conditioning) you find out each dog's level of tolerance. That's one of the best benefits of a sequential training program. The process of conditioning dogs to pressure is individual to each dog, and provides the trainer with greater knowledge of that dog's character.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by whoadog » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:11 am

Nutmeg247 wrote:Well, as one example, last Sunday when we got home from a morning outing in the hills he had some prickly pear spines in both two legs and the pads of one paw -- and he hadn't shown any discomfort, and even while picking the spines out he didn't flinch or whine.
I had a brittany one time that had a two inch twig slide into his eye socket between his eyeball and the socket. He kept right on hunting but was shaking his head every once in awhile. When I called him in all I could see was just a tiny piece of the twig sticking out of the corner of his eye. I was shocked when I finally got a grip on it and saw long it was. Put a collar on him though and he was a wimp. He just seemed to hate the sensation of it. I very rarely moved off the lowest setting.
EvanG wrote:If you know how to pressure condition (a central portion of e-collar conditioning) you find out each dog's level of tolerance.
Yes. That's where I was going with the question.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:00 am

whoadog wrote:... Put a collar on him though and he was a wimp. He just seemed to hate the sensation of it. I very rarely moved off the lowest setting.
EvanG wrote:If you know how to pressure condition (a central portion of e-collar conditioning) you find out each dog's level of tolerance.
Yes. That's where I was going with the question.
It's interesting that for my current dog (1st I've used a collar on) he hates the pager/vibration only setting, and likewise initially would simply drop and refuse to move with a bell on. Talking to other people, apparently this is not uncommon. I can see that another dog might hate the "buzz" feeling from collar stimulation, while otherwise having a high pain tolerance.

I did go through the process of trying escalating levels of stim with him to see where he first began to visibly react to the collar. But, full disclosure about my level of experience, I didn't know the phrase "pressure condition" until reading it just now. I simply read several manufacturer's articles and several other articles on e-collar use, and followed what they recommended. One of the things everyone stressed was that if your dog is showing discomfort as opposed to simply reacting to the collar, you're on way too high a setting. I was struck while starting the process that, with being mindful of not screwing things up, things went very smoothly and it was very useful.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by EvanG » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:27 pm

Nutmeg247 wrote:It's interesting that for my current dog (1st I've used a collar on) he hates the pager/vibration only setting, and likewise initially would simply drop and refuse to move with a bell on. Talking to other people, apparently this is not uncommon. I can see that another dog might hate the "buzz" feeling from collar stimulation, while otherwise having a high pain tolerance.

I did go through the process of trying escalating levels of stim with him to see where he first began to visibly react to the collar. But, full disclosure about my level of experience, I didn't know the phrase "pressure condition" until reading it just now. I simply read several manufacturer's articles and several other articles on e-collar use, and followed what they recommended. One of the things everyone stressed was that if your dog is showing discomfort as opposed to simply reacting to the collar, you're on way too high a setting. I was struck while starting the process that, with being mindful of not screwing things up, things went very smoothly and it was very useful.
The better modern methods will explain the rationale, and show the procedure for pressure conditioning. It's well worth your time if you really want to give your dog your best.

EvanG
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:55 pm

I've been collar conditioning my english cocker for the past week and it has worked wonders. He is a very hard charging dog but very soft. Any time I would correct him he'd end up shutting down on me. With the collar he's a completely different dog. Our sessions last longer and he doesn't shut down as the pressure from the collar is less than what I can physically give him. Huge eye opener!
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:22 pm

EvanG wrote: The better modern methods will explain the rationale, and show the procedure for pressure conditioning. It's well worth your time if you really want to give your dog your best.

EvanG
Now you're talking EvanG :D

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by EvanG » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:52 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:I've been collar conditioning my english cocker for the past week and it has worked wonders. He is a very hard charging dog but very soft. Any time I would correct him he'd end up shutting down on me. With the collar he's a completely different dog. Our sessions last longer and he doesn't shut down as the pressure from the collar is less than what I can physically give him. Huge eye opener!
I wish you could put up bill boards across the globe to inform those who have such opposite notions! Sounds like you're doing an excellent job!

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:25 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:I've been collar conditioning my english cocker for the past week and it has worked wonders. He is a very hard charging dog but very soft. Any time I would correct him he'd end up shutting down on me. With the collar he's a completely different dog. Our sessions last longer and he doesn't shut down as the pressure from the collar is less than what I can physically give him. Huge eye opener!
This earns 5 gold stars.

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:54 pm

His entire demeanor has changed. He was very scatter brained and everything overwhelmed him - he couldn't focus. Now he seems much calmer and is very focused. I am very thankful to have found a great retriever trainer to help me with the process - its only been a week but my boy has made leaps and bounds in his training where he had stalled for the last couple of months.
Cass
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:01 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:His entire demeanor has changed. He was very scatter brained and everything overwhelmed him - he couldn't focus. Now he seems much calmer and is very focused. I am very thankful to have found a great retriever trainer to help me with the process - its only been a week but my boy has made leaps and bounds in his training where he had stalled for the last couple of months.
C'mon Cass'?....
In a week?...Collar conditioning , and another post I hear' ,,elsewhere, that your whistle gets the same magical response?..phewww!
Good on your trainer!..pray tell this wonder that i seek?
Congratulations on your progress :D
Is there any chance you can share this process on video?..would be great to see honest mate!

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:39 pm

I'll try to make a video Robert. The boy even heels off leash now!
Cass
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:08 pm

You should be very proud of yourself. You've come miles. Are you going to visit the Spaniel Championships in Ontario next month?
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by polmaise » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:18 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:I'll try to make a video Robert. The boy even heels off leash now!
Fantastic!...Look forward to it mate .
Always nice to a see a good cocker on here! :D

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Sharon wrote:You should be very proud of yourself. You've come miles. Are you going to visit the Spaniel Championships in Ontario next month?
Well it might be hard to convince the other half to go or let me go. Doesn't share my "obsession" as she calls it. I really want to though
Cass
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:04 pm

Well done Cass. :D I've got a certain little cocker here that could do with a visit to your trainer ! :lol:

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:20 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Well done Cass. :D I've got a certain little cocker here that could do with a visit to your trainer ! :lol:

Bill T.
Bill I can't explain in words how amazing the transformation in my boy has been over the past week. He's a cracker and super smart but I have struggled with how sensitive he is. The e-collar has been a savior. I can correct him immediately for poor behavior and he "gets it". I was having issues with heeling and the stop whistle and he does both perfectly now. I think if more spaniel folks could embrace e-collars and the proper way to use them, they would really take their dogs to the next level - especially cockers, which by nature are a different (to say the least) breed to train. As an example my collar has levels 0 - 100... I train Jake at a level 18-20... which to me I can barely feel. Level 80 is where it feels uncomfortable on my skin. I think proper education of e-collars is needed, because used properly are way more effective than running out and physically correcting a dog (and I'm young and fast! Not as fast as the collar though). You can really shape behavior for the better. It is an amazing tool, and if your dog is soft like mine - a very gentle tool at that.
Cass
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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:01 pm

Cass,

Be prepared for a little backsliding and don't over react. They rarely go straight up, there are often peaks and valleys. I have never had that great of results with any tool, I suspect the reason you have was all the ground work you have been doing, and it just came together.

I am glad it did.

Neil

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Re: Are E-Collars really necessary?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:09 pm

Oh I'm sure we'll have our ups and downs but I haven't had such consistent "ups" in a long time. It makes everything make sense to him
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr

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