GSP pup, duck training tips?

[chevyrulz]

my 10 month old GSP female, has a couple issues:

1) won't jump out of the boat on water
she jumps out fine at the dock or in the driveway

2) leaves water retrieves @ the water's edge
even if i run away as she nears shore, she'll drop it before she gets to me

3) leaves land retreives where they fall
no interest in picking them up, much less bringing them to me

4) won't hold a bumper or a ball
no problem holding a dead bird though, soft mouth too

5) "face biting", everyone but me who bends down to pet her, she jumps up @ their faces
she wants to lick them, occasionally this includes an accidental headbut

she's my 1st dog, i introduced her successfully to dead birds, guns, & the ecollar. she has a nice soft mouth, she's amazingly obedient. she already knew sit when I got her @ 8 weeks old from the breeder. she's very obedient, & knows the basic commands lay down, come/here, stay, kennel, give, load up, etc... i don't plan to do field or hunt tests, and i don't hunt pheasant or quail. i would like her to duck hunt & be able to burn up some energy playing fetch. i took her dove hunting & she did awesome. Any advice or training scenarios you can think of?

here's some pictures:


hmm, pointing @ a mallard decoy may be problematic

[Trekmoor]

Will she jump down from a low vertical bank into water ? I'm thinking of a waterside bank just 1-2 feet high. She seems to have a few retrieve connected problems and ,if it was me, I'd want to fix them on land before trying to do things in water. Personally, I'd go back quite a few stages to what I think you lads call "happy timing." I'd take her for walks where I'd have to cross little streams with her playing alongside me. I'd choose entry points to cross those streams of ever increasing bank height and ever increasing depths of water right below the entry points.....get your waders on and take her to water crossings assuming you have suitable streams in your area.

I think you are asking just a bit too much of an only partially trained pup.

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

Everything you stated says to put the dog into a program. Smart Fetch and Fowl Dogs will cure every problem you mentioned.

[Del Lolo]

my 10 month old GSP female, has a couple issues:

1) won't jump out of the boat on water
she jumps out fine at the dock or in the driveway

2) leaves water retrieves @ the water's edge
even if i run away as she nears shore, she'll drop it before she gets to me

3) leaves land retreives where they fall
no interest in picking them up, much less bringing them to me

4) won't hold a bumper or a ball
no problem holding a dead bird though, soft mouth too

5) "face biting", everyone but me who bends down to pet her, she jumps up @ their faces
she wants to lick them, occasionally this includes an accidental headbut

she's my 1st dog, i introduced her successfully to dead birds, guns, & the ecollar. she has a nice soft mouth, she's amazingly obedient. she already knew sit when I got her @ 8 weeks old from the breeder. she's very obedient, & knows the basic commands lay down, come/here, stay, kennel, give, load up, etc... i don't plan to do field or hunt tests, and i don't hunt pheasant or quail. i would like her to duck hunt & be able to burn up some energy playing fetch. i took her dove hunting & she did awesome. Any advice or training scenarios you can think of?

1. Is this the case even if there is a bird on the water ?
2. FF
3. FF
4. FF
5. "SIT" means sit

[EvanG]

Everything you stated says to put the dog into a program. Smart Fetch and Fowl Dogs will cure every problem you mentioned.

Be patient and thorough. A full, step-by-step course of FF. Are you seeing a pattern here?

EvanG

[chevyrulz]

First off, thank you each for the replies.

Will she jump down from a low vertical bank into water ? I'm thinking of a waterside bank just 1-2 feet high.
Bill T.

yes, sometimes. I believe she's not scared to jump from the boat, but instead worried that she's not allowed to.

She seems to have a few retrieve connected problems and ,if it was me, I'd want to fix them on land before trying to do things in water.
Bill T.

I was thinking the same thing, but she's so uninterested in land retrieves. I keep having to revert back to water retrieves so we end on a positive note.

I'd take her for walks where I'd have to cross little streams with her playing alongside me. I'd choose entry points to cross those streams of ever increasing bank height and ever increasing depths of water right below the entry points
Bill T.

Good idea! We don't really have streams, but I'll setup something using this concept.

I think you are asking just a bit too much of an only partially trained pup.
Bill T.

I agree and appreciate any / all advice or criticism to improve my lack of training experience.

1. Is this the case even if there is a bird on the water ?

I strongly doubt it would be, but she hasn't been asked to jump from boat to water for a dead bird. I only hunt public land for ducks & doves so dead birds aren't easy to come by for training (a poor excuse, I know...) I'd love to figure out how to teach this without a dead bird.

5. "SIT" means sit

I hear ya. When she "face bites" I will start using the "sit" command with collar correction if necessary. I wish my collar remote had another button to electrocute the idiot praising the face biting, especially when they try to tell me it's ok.

Everything you stated says to put the dog into a program. Smart Fetch and Fowl Dogs will cure every problem you mentioned.

Be patient and thorough. A full, step-by-step course of FF. Are you seeing a pattern here?

EvanG

Indeed. I actually am hoping for tips on FF'ing my GSP, especially after some of the difficulties I've read about coupled with my lack of experience & lack of funds to pay for it.

[chevyrulz]

Will she jump down from a low vertical bank into water ?

Bill T.

Yes sir, sometimes.

I think you are asking just a bit too much of an only partially trained pup.

Bill T.

I agree. I'm not disappointed in her. I do, however, want to reverse these issues before they become any more habitual than they already are.

1. Is this the case even if there is a bird on the water ?

Not sure, never tried it. She'd probably be more cooperative with a bird, but unfortunately for me & her birds are not easy to come by for training. I realize that's a poor excuse...I feel like I'm hitting a wall, or worse yet, moving backwards on these fetch issues. Short of FF, I'll try to find something she will hold besides a bird & give her a high value food reward like raw meat for bringing it to me. I'm definitely open to any ideas

5. "SIT" means sit

Indeed, I hear ya. I haven't actually used "sit" when she does this. I always tell her "no", which obviously hasn't worked. I'll try "sit" next time. I wish the e-collar had another button to correct my friends who reward the "face biting" with praise. It's a problem, but it's really not her fault... Assuming it's inevitable the pup eventually will get praise for "face biting", any other thoughts on how to overcome this besides reinforcing sit?

put the dog into a program. Smart Fetch and Fowl Dogs will cure every problem you mentioned.

I have a video by Chris Aiken which demonstrates his FF process, it's called "Duck Dog Basics". He's a Lab guy though. I understand the principle, teach the dog commands are not optional, ever. Sounds like y'all feel I need to FF if I want my GSP to be a reliable retriever. I actually started this topic hoping some of those experienced in FF would offer words of wisdom. I'm wondering if I need to approach the process any different for my GSP, versus all the stuff I've seen/read which is mostly for Labs. I tried the 1st step of Chris Aiken's FF method on my tailgate with a gloved hand, she was definitely resistant & chewy, pawing on me, kept having to re-sit, sometimes laying down when I said sit, etc...I'm not frustrated, & I plan to stick with it calmly until she figures it out, but I'd love confirmation that's kinda how it goes sometimes. Does it occasionally take a couple days or more of repeating the glove thing before moving on to step 2 hold a paint roller?

[Bluesky2012]

Dude i just went through all of FF to include some pile and water work. Read the very lengthy posts I put out a while back about it. May give you insight of a timeline. Understand too, a lot of the issues I had were because of me not understanding the process. I watched lots of videos, etc but the process is more art than science. Enjoy. It does produce a reliable retrieve though for sure. Just be prepared. Its mentally draining at times.

[chevyrulz]

Sorry for the double post y'all, I checked back & my reply never posted so I rewrote it, but apparently it was waiting on approval or something.

Bluesky, I read your posts from 8/15/13 - 9/6/13, & it's one reason I'm apprehensive about FF. How is your GSP doing? I almost feel like you rushed through it, especially on day one & then from 9/4 to 9/5. Then again, I'm totally inexperienced, & only know what I've seen & read from other trainers...

[gonehuntin']

There is no difference between forcing a lab and a GSP. The program is identical.

[Bluesky2012]

My GSP turned out great from it and definitely is crushing birds in the field right now. The biggest issues I had were from going too slow rather than too fast. The dog picked up much faster than I thought and because of that, we were running into issues. Those posts make it sound worse than it is. It was a headache at times, but had i known more then, my dog would have been very easy to force fetch. Ironically he was just very tough and learned it fast so the biggest issues came from me not reading the dog well. Had i recognized that I wasn't using nearly enough force and the pace was wrong, we could have done it all much faster. I wouldn't expect that from other dogs though.

I will say though, if you think you are a decent trainer, but haven't done FF before, FF will show you how much you don't know about dogs. Its all about reading a dog. Work with a pro, or it can be a much bigger headache than you think. But once its over, its a game changer.

[Bluesky2012]

Also, to clarify some things I learned after it, the glove wasn't very important. Once the dog was reasonibly comfortable, switching to objects helped the dog understand hold much better. The glove (in my opinion) isnt the part to spend lots of time on. Just use it to show the basics of hold.

After the glove and dowel, the actual FF started, and that would have been a VERY fast process if I had been able to read the dog well. Biggest issue again, is my dog required a lot of force, and being able to apply enough force, while moving with the dog is significantly tougher than youd think. Thats why for me,the E-collar was a major part. My dog understood that much better, because the force was at a "convincing" level, consitently until he had the object in his mouth. This is likely not the norm, as many people rely on the ear pinch a lot more. I imagine the collar worked so well because he had been on it for a while before hand. Re-read my posts. The big theme you will see is that I could not keep steady, hard pressure on his ear which let him either not care, or be a drama queen and squirm out because he knew that would end it. It was an issue of constant pressure, and bolting. Literally he knew what to do, he just also knew how to get out of it. On the videos, a lot of the dogs are relatively soft or have already been completely FFed prior to filming, so I hadn't ever seen what to do with a hard headed GSP before. Once we put the e-collar on, the pro showed me how i had always had the e-collar too soft, and then de-bolted him to fetch, it was game over. No issues ever since. After mini pile, we took a few days off, and he is a bold confident stud now and a retrieving machine.

As I was told during FF "he is resentful GSP's are absolutely horrible about this... if they couldn't do it their way, they didn't want to do it at all."- VERY true of my GSP till we had a tough love/ heart to heart debolting session.

[chevyrulz]

Thanks gonehuntin, I figured as much. Nice bluesky, glad your dog is doing so well. Thanks for all the info! My GSP is similarly over-dramatic, and she's constantly outsmarting me so I need all the help I can get.

I'm definitely curious if/how everyone goes about forcing differently for certain breeds, personalities, or moods. Any other tips on reading my dog?

[Bluesky2012]

I'm definitely curious if/how everyone goes about forcing differently for certain breeds, personalities, or moods. Any other tips on reading my dog?

^Thats the art of it.

[chevyrulz]

wow, such a simple FF process, is not so easy! I'll start a new topic for my FF questions