training question

[spillway]

MY GSP is 8 months old. He is bird crazy and is well behaved. He knows come,stay ,woah,sit and get the birdies. He has been on live birds several times and finds them well. I also hide a wing in the field and he finds it with ease.He gose in and gets the wing and points only for a second but the live birds he will hold longer.Should I not train him with the wing or will that not hurt his training.Also when I woah him he stops but wants to come to me if a bird is not around.Any tips would be great.The trainer I am working with said he is doing great and just needs time.

[whoadog]

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

[Neil]

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

What happens when you miss? What do they learn then?

[gonehuntin']

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

+1. NEVER, EVER, SHOOT A BIRD YOUR DOG BUSTS UNLESS YOU WANT A FLUSHER INSTEAD OF A RETRIEVER.

[DonF]

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

What happens when you miss? What do they learn then?

Your a lousy shot!

[Neil]

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

+1. NEVER, EVER, SHOOT A BIRD YOUR DOG BUSTS UNLESS YOU WANT A FLUSHER INSTEAD OF A RETRIEVER.

Have you experienced that or is what you have been told?

[whoadog]

[What happens when you miss? What do they learn then?

I don't miss! I actually set up launchers with birds that can fly until I start to see the dog start to break down and point. Then I load them with wing clipped birds once I am certain I can get a staunch point. That way even when I miss, I don't. I've been cruising around this site for a while now and the OP does not sound like someone with a lot of equipment. So, I gave him my best advice for what I surmise to be his situation. You and I both know it will take more time, perhaps considerably more, than setting up training situations. But, it is how I trained successfully for years before I could afford the equipment I have now.

[spillway]

Thanks guys for the tips.I am off to our first real hunt today.

[gonehuntin']

Yeah, don't put out the wing anymore. Too easy for him to get confused. My best advice at this point is don't shoot any thing that he busts. Only kill the birds that he allows you to flush. Done consistently my experience is that most pointing dogs make the connection rather quickly that busting birds means no feathers in the mouth.

+1. NEVER, EVER, SHOOT A BIRD YOUR DOG BUSTS UNLESS YOU WANT A FLUSHER INSTEAD OF A RETRIEVER.

Have you experienced that or is what you have been told?

heck yes I've experienced it and so has every professional trainer on this board. I've had to break dog's that have been taught and rewarded for flushing a bird.

If the dog busts a bird and you shoot the bird or shoot at the bird, there is no down side for him; you've just reinforced his tendency to not point the bird, and rewarded him for not doing so!! If you want a wild, untrained dog, just shoot every bird he busts and you'll develop a great one.

That differs markedly from missed a bird the dog has correctly worked then pointed. YOU'RE the one that screwed up, the dog has done everything perfectly and you reward him with a pat on the shoulders. When you shoot and miss hunting, the dog has been conditioned to that scenario all his life when you fire a blank pistol when popping a bird from a trap.

If you try to reason these things out from the dog's perspective, the answers many times are made obvious to those that seek them.

[Neil]

OK, GH, how many Field Champions have you trained?

I have two FC's in my kennel right now that have had a good many unpointed, flushed birds shot over them. Most that think shooting unpointed birds ruin a dog aren't training properly. Doing so without correction would not be good, but I don't worry about it. My dogs learn to stop to flush for whatever reason the bird takes flight.

I guess my dog's are not that deep of thinkers, and sence they are not little people in fur coats, I don't try to think like them. I know how to train.

We have a bunch of new trainers afraid to shoot birds, instead of enjoying themselves and their dogs. It is just a big deal

[Nutmeg247]

...

I have two FC's in my kennel right now that have had a good many unpointed, flushed birds shot over them. Most that think shooting unpointed birds ruin a dog aren't training properly. Doing so without correction would not be good, but I don't worry about it. My dogs learn to stop to flush for whatever reason the bird takes flight...

How do you correct them when they bust birds, then?

In terms of conditioning, if they end up with a dead bird without a good point, it seems that is a pretty good reinforcer for busting the bird. I don't say that to be argumentative, I'm just trying to sort this out. Do you not let them retrieve the bird, or otherwise do something to keep it from being a reward? Or do you do something to make the point at least as rewarding as the bird itself?

[gonehuntin']

OK, GH, how many Field Champions have you trained?

None. I never ran pointing dogs in field trials, I trained gun dogs. In our busy season we put 120 at a time through, a mix of retrievers and pointing dogs. I do have four FC labs to my credit though. When you train problem dogs for the public, you see the worst of the worst. Untrained, half trained, problems, poor breeding and lack of desire and of course the good ones. you see it all.

I have always trained on the premises that the fewer problems I cause, the fewer I have to correct and the faster I can train the dog. Hence your method makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

I have two FC's in my kennel right now that have had a good many unpointed, flushed birds shot over them. Most that think shooting unpointed birds ruin a dog aren't training properly. Doing so without correction would not be good, but I don't worry about it. My dogs learn to stop to flush for whatever reason the bird takes flight.

That is really confusing. It sounds like what you are saying is that your dogs are trained to stop at flush and corrected if they don't do so. Then if the ACCIDENTALLY flush a bird, or you do, you shoot it, still expecting them to be steady. That's a WHOLE lot different that letting an untrained dog flush and chase birds and you shooting them or at them. Huge difference. You should be able to see that.

I guess my dog's are not that deep of thinkers, and sence they are not little people in fur coats, I don't try to think like them. I know how to train.

Ain't many pooches are in think tanks, but if you don't know what makes a dog tick and just go through a program with no thought to the dog and it's probably responses or responses, you're missing the boat as a dog trainer.

We have a bunch of new trainers afraid to shoot birds, instead of enjoying themselves and their dogs. It is just a big deal

And well they should be afraid to shoot birds over an untrained dog. Not all dog's are well bred dog's, some have more point than others. If you ever run into one of these outlaws, you'll see why no trainer I know of makes a practice of shooting an improperly handled bird.

[vartz04]

I think this really boils down to how you hunt and what you want out of your dog.

Do you want a dog to impress your buddies? Or a dog that hunts like a field trial dog? Then you better hold off on blasting birds that you don't flush yourself.

Do you want a hunting buddy to help you get birds? Do you just want to have fun in the field? Do you hunt preserves with pen raised birds? I don't think it's the end of the world then if you shoot birds he flushes occasionally.

I feel like a different bred than most on here though. I am in the latter category. Not saying in wouldn't like the perfect dog but currently I don't have the time or the space to put in that much work into a dog.

[Neil]

I train all pointing dogs to field trial standards, staunch, sready to flush and shot, back, etc.
even those that just hunt.

It really does not matter how the bird gets in the air, or what happens after it does, the dogs are expected to point and then honor the flight and not move until released. If they knock birds or move after the flush, I correct them

Their reward is finding the bird, not the retrieve. All my dogs do retrieve, but there are thousans of dogs on Southern plantations and winning at field trials that have not had a bird in their mouths since they were pups, and a good many have never retrieved. They hunt hard and point with great style.

It is just not a big deal to shoot unpointed birds, if you properly train them.

Dog training and hunting just does not have to be such hard work, it ought to be fun.

[Neil]

I just reread my posts, and I apolgisze to all. It was not my intention to be offensive. I am reminded of a line in the TV series, "Justiried" when Rayland quips, "If the first person you meet in the moring is an jerk, it is them. But if everyone you meet throughout the day seems rude, chances are good it is you that is the jerk. I am sorry.

All I was trying to say if you only train on alternate Tuesdays or you wait until a dog is two years old before you put your hands on them, then may be shooting unpointed birds could be a problem. I wouldn't know.

But if you train a few minutes everyday, rain or shine, with high standards, then it really does not matter. When hunting, if they are not staunch, you train them to be. If they do not stop to flush, for whatever reason the birds do flush, then you correct them, until they do.

Up until they are a year or so old, I shoot every bird that flies, even if I have to go to full choke and 5's. I flush them, the dog flushes them, or they flush wild they die, and the dog gets to mouth them. As they near two, they are trained to be staunch and steady. They see a bird in the air they stop or they are corrected. It really does not matter why the bird flushes, they are to stop until released. It has nothing to do with reward, they are trained through hundreds of sessons to stop.

It really is that simple. If you can't shoot unpointed birds the dog is not properly trained.

I did not mean to offend or be argumentative.

I think too many new trainers are worried about the wrong things. They need to enjoy themselves.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Looks like you are just human Neil. Don't worry, we all live in glass houses.

[Sharon]

If at first you don't succeed................... find out if the loser gets anything. You're very knowledgeable Neil. That makes up for any minor glitches.

[Neil]

Thanks, I wasn't looking for sympathy, just tired of the arguing.

Neil

[big_fish]

A older trainer told me years ago never brag on your dog (or your training) until your dog is dead. I agree with who ever said it is what you want out of your dog. Know what you want and train towards that if you and your dog are happy well there you go. Happy and safe hunting to all.

[whoadog]

It really is that simple. If you can't shoot unpointed birds the dog is not properly trained.

I absolutely agree with this statement and also with your "train every day" statement. I think where we differ is in training styles and maybe not even very much there. These days I do so much yard work that by the time the dog hits live birds for the first time they usually at least flash point if not lock down like they are supposed to. When I tell someone not to shoot birds that aren't pointed, I'm thinking no more than one or two is all it will take. I have seen one productive point literally change a dog's attitude about busting birds. I answered your "what if you miss" question with a flip answer and perhaps I should expand on that a bit more. My gun intro has changed so that just firing a gun is percieved as a reward by the dog (if operant conditioning is to be believed). So, a miss is not really a miss. But, in the past I have seen misses slow progress in a dog. However, it's no different that a mis-timed correction, it's not the end of the world. They always point again somewhere down the road and we make the connection.