New Spaniel Training Help

love2hunt · Post by **love2hunt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:47 am

New to the Gun Dog Forum and have enjoyed reading all the topics, tips, and training advice!

I have a English Cocker Spaniel male, named Bo, that is just over 4 months old. I have been reading a re-reading everything I can get my hands on about training (much to the chagrin of my dear wife) but am feeling a little lost. There is SO much information out there, and contradicting information at that. I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed with his training.

My goals with him are to use him as a non-slip retriever on dove and early-season duck hunts (especially from a canoe), and hunt rabbits, woodcock, grouse (if I can find any around Central VA) and the occasional trip for pheasants, quail, etc. I'm not interested much in field trials or hunt tests. I want a controllable, fun-to-hunt-with dog. I've trained other hunting breeds before (specifically squirrel and coon dogs) and understand that every dream and expectation of mine will likely be tempered by reality; nevertheless, I'd still like a dog trained well enough to not be embarrassed by him when I invite my buddies along.

So far, he is doing well with sit (just couldn't use the word "hup" after saying "sit" for so long), here, off, and no. I have also been doing very light retrieving with him (2-4 throws/2-3 times a week) and he absolutely loves it. I have let him find a dove that I shot during September and he went nuts over that with no trepidation or fear whatsoever. I have had him in the water twice, both of which he was a little bit apprehensive to get in so I did not force it. At his age, where do I go from here?

Thanks in advance for the help!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:30 pm

Nice to see another cocker owner on here! I have an 8 month old fbecs named Jake. You sound just like me - what you want to hunt with him, and I think you made an excellent choice! Sounds like you are well on your way. At 4 months, just work on the basics and keep sessions short and positive. Cockers take a bit to mature mentally enough to handle pressure of any kind. Separately from obedience, I would also start introducing him to clip wing pigeons as well as fly aways to build his drive and a love for birds. I live in Ontario and up here there are VERY few spaniel owners, and you will see on this forum it is dominated by pointing breeds. Don't rush it. Another piece of advice - I, like you, bought every book, dvd, and read everything online I could find about training. Its overwhelming (theres a ton! And they're all different). What I learned - forget reading it all. Find one and just follow it through (I like Jim Spencer's Hup! Training flushing spaniels the american way). Mixing and matching (especially with cockers) doesn't work out well and you'll end up with a confused and neurotic dog. I would try to find a spaniel group/club in your area to train with but if like me, there are none - seek out a retriever trainer/retriever club. I was given that advice before I even picked up my pup and didn't do it until just recently when I was lucky enough to find one in my area. In the past couple of months since training with them my dog has went from a scatter brained nut job to a focused, obedient dog. Especially if you are looking to hunt ducks and doves with him, the retriever training is invaluable. I highly suggest you try to find one in your area - there are many more around than there are spaniel clubs. Continue to limit his retrieves, and basically - keep doing what you're doing. Sounds like you're well on your way. Feel free to PM me any time, this is my first cocker and first gun dog in general so I am still learning myself, but will try to help any way I can. Even if to just give you moral support with the crazy breed you picked hahahaha.

pointshootretrieve · Post by **pointshootretrieve** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:36 pm

Pick up " Training The Sporting Dog " by Donald Smith and Ervin Jones. Everything you need is in there

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:45 pm

Welcome and good choice in choosing an English cocker. He should be able to do everything you are looking for him to do. I'm on my first gun dog as well, an English Springer Spaniel named Loki. It sounds like he is about a week or two younger than your pup. There is a lot of good info on here but as Cass mentioned it is predominately people with pointers. I will strongly second the advice to find a training group or club in your area to join.

I was introduced to a group of springer owners (hunters and successful field trialers) that get together weekly and train and it is easily going to be the best thing for Loki and myself. A training group will be able to bring you and your dog along in the training process and help you work your way through any hiccups along the way.

Good luck

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:28 pm

There is plenty of advice out there. The problem is, seeing it in print is one thing, but actually implementing it effectively is another thing. If you don't have a group near you that you can learn from, I'd strongly recommend getting a DVD serious that will not only give you training advice, but will also give you the opportunity to see a pro interacting with Spaniels. Training involves not only physical methods, but also relating to the dog in a way that is conducive to learning-- more the intangibles. You'll will passively a lot on the later by watching DVDs (or observing a good spaniel trainer in real life too). I've watched Simon Tyers video and learned from it. I've also heard that David Lisett's series is very good. I'm guessing you would learn a lot from either. Best of luck to you.

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:46 am

If you can get a cocker to sit still in a canoe, to the point where you feel safe, let me know how you did it (short of dosing him with Benadryl, etc)

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:58 am

Blackjaw wrote:If you can get a cocker to sit still in a canoe, to the point where you feel safe, let me know how you did it (short of dosing him with Benadryl, etc)

Beautiful, Blackjaw

But I'm pretty sure if Cass keeps following his mentor's training advice, he will achieve a first with this "balancing act."

But that's also why they invented "The Little Dog That Doesn't Rock the Boat" (but will rock your waterfowling world), in the first place -

- the Boykin.

Oh, yeah: Beyond the book learning you've been "assigned," L2H, you'll also want to catch up to these folks http://mahsc.com/ including some pretty prominent members down your way.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:41 pm

MG - we may have started FTP today....

love2hunt · Post by **love2hunt** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:47 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Nice to see another cocker owner on here! I have an 8 month old fbecs named Jake. You sound just like me - what you want to hunt with him, and I think you made an excellent choice! Sounds like you are well on your way. At 4 months, just work on the basics and keep sessions short and positive. Cockers take a bit to mature mentally enough to handle pressure of any kind. Separately from obedience, I would also start introducing him to clip wing pigeons as well as fly aways to build his drive and a love for birds. I live in Ontario and up here there are VERY few spaniel owners, and you will see on this forum it is dominated by pointing breeds. Don't rush it. Another piece of advice - I, like you, bought every book, dvd, and read everything online I could find about training. Its overwhelming (theres a ton! And they're all different). What I learned - forget reading it all. Find one and just follow it through (I like Jim Spencer's Hup! Training flushing spaniels the american way). Mixing and matching (especially with cockers) doesn't work out well and you'll end up with a confused and neurotic dog. I would try to find a spaniel group/club in your area to train with but if like me, there are none - seek out a retriever trainer/retriever club. I was given that advice before I even picked up my pup and didn't do it until just recently when I was lucky enough to find one in my area. In the past couple of months since training with them my dog has went from a scatter brained nut job to a focused, obedient dog. Especially if you are looking to hunt ducks and doves with him, the retriever training is invaluable. I highly suggest you try to find one in your area - there are many more around than there are spaniel clubs. Continue to limit his retrieves, and basically - keep doing what you're doing. Sounds like you're well on your way. Feel free to PM me any time, this is my first cocker and first gun dog in general so I am still learning myself, but will try to help any way I can. Even if to just give you moral support with the crazy breed you picked hahahaha.

I have read through "Hup!" several times and like his methodology overall. I am going to look into joining a club if I can find one here close enough! Thanks for the reply Cass, I'm sure I'll be asking many more questions.

jhorak wrote:There is plenty of advice out there. The problem is, seeing it in print is one thing, but actually implementing it effectively is another thing. If you don't have a group near you that you can learn from, I'd strongly recommend getting a DVD serious that will not only give you training advice, but will also give you the opportunity to see a pro interacting with Spaniels. Training involves not only physical methods, but also relating to the dog in a way that is conducive to learning-- more the intangibles. You'll will passively a lot on the later by watching DVDs (or observing a good spaniel trainer in real life too). I've watched Simon Tyers video and learned from it. I've also heard that David Lisett's series is very good. I'm guessing you would learn a lot from either. Best of luck to you.

Good call on videos. I'm going to look into ordering one of those here shortly.

Blackjaw wrote:If you can get a cocker to sit still in a canoe, to the point where you feel safe, let me know how you did it (short of dosing him with Benadryl, etc)

My canoe has pontoons on the side, so I'm already ahead of you on that one

crackerd wrote:
Blackjaw wrote:If you can get a cocker to sit still in a canoe, to the point where you feel safe, let me know how you did it (short of dosing him with Benadryl, etc)
Beautiful, Blackjaw But I'm pretty sure if Cass keeps following his mentor's training advice, he will achieve a first with this "balancing act."

But that's also why they invented "The Little Dog That Doesn't Rock the Boat" (but will rock your waterfowling world), in the first place -

- the Boykin.

Oh, yeah: Beyond the book learning you've been "assigned," L2H, you'll also want to catch up to these folks http://mahsc.com/ including some pretty prominent members down your way.

MG

MG, I was real close to getting a Boykin. I couldn't decide between the 2, so ended up going with the ECS cause I found one available that I liked. Checked on that link, that could be my ticket! I'm gonna check and see who is down my way. Thanks!

CDN_Cocker wrote:MG - we may have started FTP today....

Help out the newbie... What's FTP?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:11 am

love2hunt wrote: Help out the newbie... What's FTP?

Force to the pile. Its a retriever drill.

L.B.C · Post by **L.B.C** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:56 pm

I have a 16 month female Eng cocker and already have 1 season under her belt. I like the kiss method. I wouldp work on recall its the most important command. Second work with birds and and more bird's, thar will keep there prey drive going. Then slowly add a shot from a gun while on birds. I mean 1 shot off in distanse like 40 to 50 Byrd's to see if he is ok with it but no than one maybe 2 shots until he find with it. Had my ECS gun broke by 5 months and flushing birds and shooting over her by 6 m. Main thing is keep it fun for them and you and very little pressure on them until they mature. Everything else will line up . I love mine she is a great dog.

love2hunt · Post by **love2hunt** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:00 pm

L.B.C wrote:I have a 16 month female Eng cocker and already have 1 season under her belt. I like the kiss method. I wouldp work on recall its the most important command. Second work with birds and and more bird's, thar will keep there prey drive going. Then slowly add a shot from a gun while on birds. I mean 1 shot off in distanse like 40 to 50 Byrd's to see if he is ok with it but no than one maybe 2 shots until he find with it. Had my ECS gun broke by 5 months and flushing birds and shooting over her by 6 m. Main thing is keep it fun for them and you and very little pressure on them until they mature. Everything else will line up . I love mine she is a great dog.

What are you hunting with your cocker?

CDN_Cocker wrote:
love2hunt wrote: Help out the newbie... What's FTP?
Force to the pile. Its a retriever drill.

I see. Sounds like you're a little further ahead than me

L.B.C · Post by **L.B.C** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:49 pm

She flushes quail and a few pheasants. But mainly quail and woodcock own the creeks and rivers.they are quick learners and we are working on hup to flush this season. I had out with some guys tha not believet had a cocker and could believe the retrieves she makes. I shot a quail that flew off a about a 100. yrds before falling and she brought back to hand. She was only 9 months on her first real hunt with others shooting over her. She is one of the best dogs I have ever owned.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:52 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:MG - we may have started FTP today....

I'll follow this one !! ?..
I've found over the years that 'Drills' don't sit well with Cockers!..You have to 'Con' them !..But I'll look forward to the results

krakadawn · Post by **krakadawn** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:19 pm

polmaise wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:MG - we may have started FTP today....
I'll follow this one !! ?..
I've found over the years that 'Drills' don't sit well with Cockers!..You have to 'Con' them !..But I'll look forward to the results

This little cocker did well for his first exposure to this. Although this is an almost mandatory step for retrievers, many others may not have any experience in either using this or understanding where it fits in the sequential teachings for retrievers.

I would think any dog destined for teaching how to run cold blinds and handle will benefit. This is actually the second time involving some level of force in retrieving, the first being FF. In our world, dogs must go as sent and take a line. This is not about quartering but going straight until directed. This guy will move on to handling skills being developed through T work. He has also been through 3 handed casting as a precursor. None of this has affected his natural instinct to quarter. When we are finished he will have a dependable retriever who will handle to birds. These skills are by no means all that he will develop.

The teaching and practise of drills for high performing retrievers are designed to introduce, practise and maintain skills required in the field. Many would refer to this as yard work and in preparation for field work.
Regards,

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:30 pm

polmaise wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:MG - we may have started FTP today....
I'll follow this one !! ?..
I've found over the years that 'Drills' don't sit well with Cockers!..You have to 'Con' them !..But I'll look forward to the results

polmaise, what do you mean by "Con" them?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:02 pm

pm sent jim

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:29 pm

Congratulations on the new cocker. I bet you will not have a problem getting the ECS to hunt like you want. Most have a strong desire to retrieve. Doves and ducks, no big deal.

Good luck!

love2hunt · Post by **love2hunt** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:16 pm

Took Bo out for opening day of woodcock and grouse season here in VA. I was really just hoping to get him in contact with some birds, but no luck. I have never hunted either species and that was probably the biggest problem. However, I did find what I think might have been some woodcock "chalk." How do I tell whether it was actually from woodcock though? It was a spot about 2'x2' in a stand of young saplings next to a creek, and it was covered in it.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:24 pm

love2hunt wrote:Took Bo out for opening day of woodcock and grouse season here in VA. I was really just hoping to get him in contact with some birds, but no luck. I have never hunted either species and that was probably the biggest problem. However, I did find what I think might have been some woodcock "chalk." How do I tell whether it was actually from woodcock though? It was a spot about 2'x2' in a stand of young saplings next to a creek, and it was covered in it.

I took Jake out many times before he got a contact. I am always out walking in the woods, whether its hunting season or not. The only thing that changes is whether or not I carry a gun. I got Jake in March and we were out lots all spring and summer and he never bumped into anything bigger than a robin. Once he bumped his first grouse and I shot it though everything changed. We had roughly 30 flushes yesterday (we won't talk about how many in the bag

) and he's only 9 months old. I really worried about Jake because I didn't get him a whole lot of bird exposure before hunting season but let me tell you from experience - its not needed for a well bred cocker. They are very smart and intuitive and figure out the game pretty quick, then your worry changes to keeping them within range hahahaha. Just keep getting out there, that's the key. Sooner or later, you'll find a grouse. Right now I have found the vast majority of our flushes are in spruce thickets - feeding on the berries. Look for spruce that is surrounded by different cover like hardwoods or alders, or next to a field. Keep at it and put the miles on your boots - you'll be rewarded. Grouse generally aren't far off of trails as they pick at gravel to digest the food in their crops like a pigeon.

Gun Dog Forum