1st Timer with English Pointer

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challett3
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1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by challett3 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:14 pm

I brought a 7 month started English Pointer home a little over a month ago. I walk her every morning and evening and have started working on whoa. I will have her snake trained this weekend. The trainer that I am looking to work with her in AZ has advised me that for the time being to take her out to the desert bring a lunch and let her go. I am terrified to let her go in the big country of the AZ desert. I have searched this subject and see many of the trainers here recommend doing it earlier when puppies are 8-16 weeks but I am passed that as she is 8.5 months old. Should I buy a GPS unit, leave a 25 foot CC on her, a bell? I am not sure how to approach this.

So any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:20 am

FWIW - I have had big running pointers all my life and I ain't lost one permanently...yet. I was taught to cut the dog loose and follow it. if it did not come back around in ten minutes or so, it was on point somewhere, so you went and found it. Pointers are bred to run, and run big, without looking back. That is what they do. It is the job of the trainer to get them to look back once in a while.

Over the last fifty plus years I have had to put my coat down twice for a dog that took off on deer. They were there the next morning. One ran off on me during training(don't know why), was recovered in a back yard about ten miles away, and we got a phone call. All of that was long before beeper collars, radio telemetry and GPS.

That said, I would not go out in the desert and cut a dog loose that I just acquired. That is kinda old school and unnecessarily risky, IMO.

The very first thing you need to do with a pointer is to make that dog think the sun rises and set on you.

If a pointer likes you...it will come back for you. If it don't...it won't. It is pretty much that simple of a concept.

I would play with the dog, bond with it and get it to mind me. Then I would indeed take it out into the desert and I would be carrying the water. I would cut the dog loose without giving it a drink first. After about five minutes, I would call the dog in. if the dog comes in, I would give it a small drink of water, just a couple of squirts from the water bottle and send it out again. Five more minutes and call it in again for another couple of squirts. Always carry enough water to thoroughly wet down the dog in case it gets stupid and overheats itself.

If you do this a few times, the dog will understand that you are the God of water and if it does not want to die of thirst, it had better keep tabs on you and your water.

You could also go out there with a bag full of pigeons. When walking and the pup is crossing in front of you, let one fly. The pup will realize that you are where the fun is at.

When the pup realizes that you are the one with the water AND the one with the birds...it will WANT to be where you are.

A GPS tracking unit(which is good for about a mile or so) or radio telemetry tracking unit(which is good for up to 12 miles) might be a very good investment in wide open desert country. If you are uncomfortable with a dog fading out of sight, that tracking technology can be very reassuring.

RayG

Oh by the way, I should mention that after all those years and a whole bunch of big running dogs, I still get an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach when a dog goes over the hill on me.

But if the dog never goes over the hill on you, you will never know the awesome exhilaration that comes when you top that rise and see the SOB standing there, stacked up like a statue... on point... just waiting for YOU!!

That right there is why I love lunatic pointers.

RayG

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by challett3 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:29 am

WOW what an awesome reply, thanks so much!!

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by crazyboy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:10 am

RayGubernat wrote:FWIW - I have had big running pointers all my life and I ain't lost one permanently...yet. I was taught to cut the dog loose and follow it. if it did not come back around in ten minutes or so, it was on point somewhere, so you went and found it. Pointers are bred to run, and run big, without looking back. That is what they do. It is the job of the trainer to get them to look back once in a while.

Over the last fifty plus years I have had to put my coat down twice for a dog that took off on deer. They were there the next morning. One ran off on me during training(don't know why), was recovered in a back yard about ten miles away, and we got a phone call. All of that was long before beeper collars, radio telemetry and GPS.

That said, I would not go out in the desert and cut a dog loose that I just acquired. That is kinda old school and unnecessarily risky, IMO.

The very first thing you need to do with a pointer is to make that dog think the sun rises and set on you.

If a pointer likes you...it will come back for you. If it don't...it won't. It is pretty much that simple of a concept.

I would play with the dog, bond with it and get it to mind me. Then I would indeed take it out into the desert and I would be carrying the water. I would cut the dog loose without giving it a drink first. After about five minutes, I would call the dog in. if the dog comes in, I would give it a small drink of water, just a couple of squirts from the water bottle and send it out again. Five more minutes and call it in again for another couple of squirts. Always carry enough water to thoroughly wet down the dog in case it gets stupid and overheats itself.

If you do this a few times, the dog will understand that you are the God of water and if it does not want to die of thirst, it had better keep tabs on you and your water.

You could also go out there with a bag full of pigeons. When walking and the pup is crossing in front of you, let one fly. The pup will realize that you are where the fun is at.

When the pup realizes that you are the one with the water AND the one with the birds...it will WANT to be where you are.

A GPS tracking unit(which is good for about a mile or so) or radio telemetry tracking unit(which is good for up to 12 miles) might be a very good investment in wide open desert country. If you are uncomfortable with a dog fading out of sight, that tracking technology can be very reassuring.

RayG

Oh by the way, I should mention that after all those years and a whole bunch of big running dogs, I still get an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach when a dog goes over the hill on me.

But if the dog never goes over the hill on you, you will never know the awesome exhilaration that comes when you top that rise and see the SOB standing there, stacked up like a statue... on point... just waiting for YOU!!

That right there is why I love lunatic pointers.

RayG
X2....perfect

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Garrison » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:14 am

If a GPS doesn't break the bank, pick one up. Kind of like having insurance, you usually don't need it if you got it, but when something does happen your sure glad it is there. Last season in the Sierras my dog was out of sight and got into chasing some deer, god knows how far. The sun was going down and it was pretty dang cold. The helpless feeling in the following hours made the price of the garmin I had been debating on purchasing seem trivial. I left a jacket and a blanket for him where the truck was parked and headed down the hill, luckily we found him coming up the road about a mile or two down the hill pretty tired and with bloody pads. In hind sight I was much more lost then he ever was but my trip would of been much more enjoyable if I could of kept better tabs on his location.
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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Nutmeg247 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:39 pm

I was in the O.P.'s position a year ago, and range-wise to an extent still am. I do put a bell on my dog not infrequently now if the brush and scrub will be enough to hide the dog, since I don't have a GPS either. The GPS is sort of on the next-year list. If the dog puts a big ridge between me and it, the bell doesn't help much or at all, though otherwise with the steep hills and flat shoulder and valley terrain here in southern Nevada sound travels pretty well. I've got a half-mile e-collar, and have to be pretty conscious of range pretty quickly to keep the dog from outrunning the unit. All the posts so far have been great and I don't have anything to add in terms of the dog running off.

In terms of hazards, there are lots of mine shafts where I tend to head out, which I'd not thought of as an issue pre-dog. I also find that inner-tube booties are valuable to help deal with spines and burrs. A full first aid kit, and certainly tweezers and duct tape, comes in handy.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by challett3 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:54 pm

looks like Garmin is going to get so more of my hard earned cash!!

If I use a Garmin do I still want to attach a CC on her or just let her go and try and make sure she looks back to me for H20?

Thanks for all the great replies

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddogger » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:46 pm

I didn't read Ray's entire post because I don't like to read long posts (no offense intended Ray. :lol: ) but I agree that you need to bond with the dog first. Then take him out and let him roll.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:33 pm

challett3 wrote:looks like Garmin is going to get so more of my hard earned cash!!

If I use a Garmin do I still want to attach a CC on her or just let her go and try and make sure she looks back to me for H20?

Thanks for all the great replies

The garmin will be for you and your peace of mind at least at first. Down the road it can be a hugely effective training aid. The checkcord is for the dog. I would let the youngster trail the cord for a while.

The garmin will allow you to have a VERY good idea of what the dog is doing when it is out of your sight. That can be a huge help.

RayG

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:36 pm

birddogger wrote:I didn't read Ray's entire post because I don't like to read long posts (no offense intended Ray. :lol: ) but I agree that you need to bond with the dog first. Then take him out and let him roll.

Charlie

I am crushed.

Longwinded, but crushed. :P :P :lol: :lol:


NOT

RayG

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:47 pm

I agree with everything Ray said. Just part of life with these big running, hard headed dogs.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by JakeLeg » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:29 pm

I agree with Ray,and pointers are all business,but when they cherish you they are awesome pets and hunting dogs. God Bless the pointers

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:43 pm

big running doesn't in any way = hard headed.....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:00 pm

birddog1968 wrote:big running doesn't in any way = hard headed.....
I know. I've just never seen an EP that wasn't both.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:08 pm

Not my experience at all......big difference in a big running dog that goes with you and a self hunter.....

That'd make an interesting discussion on its own......pushing a dog to run early on vs having them understand feathers come in conjunction with the handler then pushing them to run. Those dogs only kenneled then turned loose to hear the wind blow in their ears may seem hard headed , I believe alot of em just dont give a rats behind about their handlers because they were pushed too young (before they associated handler=birds) and/or just left to sit in a kennel most of the time.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:29 am

birddog1968 wrote:Not my experience at all......big difference in a big running dog that goes with you and a self hunter.....

That'd make an interesting discussion on its own......pushing a dog to run early on vs having them understand feathers come in conjunction with the handler then pushing them to run. Those dogs only kenneled then turned loose to hear the wind blow in their ears may seem hard headed , I believe alot of em just dont give a rats behind about their handlers because they were pushed too young (before they associated handler=birds) and/or just left to sit in a kennel most of the time.
I'm not saying big running dogs don't handle and self hunt, I'm just saying that in my experience (and the experience of a number of friends) that they tend to be hard headed dogs.

Love them, but they can be hard headed for sure.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddogger » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:29 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
birddogger wrote:I didn't read Ray's entire post because I don't like to read long posts (no offense intended Ray. :lol: ) but I agree that you need to bond with the dog first. Then take him out and let him roll.

Charlie

I am crushed.

Longwinded, but crushed. :P :P :lol: :lol:


NOT

RayG
Ray, you know I was just razzing a little. You always have some great posts! :D

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:45 pm

birddogger wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
birddogger wrote:I didn't read Ray's entire post because I don't like to read long posts (no offense intended Ray. :lol: ) but I agree that you need to bond with the dog first. Then take him out and let him roll.

Charlie

I am crushed.

Longwinded, but crushed. :P :P :lol: :lol:


NOT

RayG
Ray, you know I was just razzing a little. You always have some great posts! :D

Charlie

Charlie -

Of course you were!

A little bit of chop busting is good for both the buster and the bustee. I am sure the audience don't mind neither.

Stay well.

RayG

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:59 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Not my experience at all......big difference in a big running dog that goes with you and a self hunter.....

That'd make an interesting discussion on its own......pushing a dog to run early on vs having them understand feathers come in conjunction with the handler then pushing them to run. Those dogs only kenneled then turned loose to hear the wind blow in their ears may seem hard headed , I believe alot of em just dont give a rats behind about their handlers because they were pushed too young (before they associated handler=birds) and/or just left to sit in a kennel most of the time.
I'm not saying big running dogs don't handle and self hunt, I'm just saying that in my experience (and the experience of a number of friends) that they tend to be hard headed dogs.

Love them, but they can be hard headed for sure.
I'd say there is some difference in different peoples definition of hard headed.....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:00 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Not my experience at all......big difference in a big running dog that goes with you and a self hunter.....

That'd make an interesting discussion on its own......pushing a dog to run early on vs having them understand feathers come in conjunction with the handler then pushing them to run. Those dogs only kenneled then turned loose to hear the wind blow in their ears may seem hard headed , I believe alot of em just dont give a rats behind about their handlers because they were pushed too young (before they associated handler=birds) and/or just left to sit in a kennel most of the time.
I'm not saying big running dogs don't handle and self hunt, I'm just saying that in my experience (and the experience of a number of friends) that they tend to be hard headed dogs.

Love them, but they can be hard headed for sure.
I'd say there is some difference in different peoples definition of hard headed.....
You're probably right, but why muddy the waters with details like that? Lol
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:12 pm

challett3 wrote:looks like Garmin is going to get so more of my hard earned cash!!

If I use a Garmin do I still want to attach a CC on her or just let her go and try and make sure she looks back to me for H20?

Thanks for all the great replies

No CC on a big running dog ; It can get caught up on a multitude of things.
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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Quaildawg » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:43 pm

I AGREE, VERY WELL SAID! The statement about finding you pointer "stacked up" is the reason I have been chasing pointers for twenty years :D
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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by DGFavor » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:32 am

I don't know squat about training dogs but I have some experience with the technologies - out in the west, IMO, if you've got a dog that gets deep in the country you've gotta use telemetry. They will be out of communication with GPS in about 500yds average, I had my Garmin unit lose communication at 32yds. once (I gave it away), and frequently the units don't seem to pick them back up once they quit "talking" to each other. Every dog I know that has been lost in the last couple of years has had a Garmin around it's neck. I've judged a bit this summer/fall and every handler that asked for his Garmin had difficulty picking the dog back up if they picked up the dog at all. Handlers with telemetry just flicked 'em on and went to the dogs. Pick yourself up a used Tracker Classic for maybe a couple hundred bucks, spend a bit of time figuring it out and you will have better odds of bringing a lost dog home - they give you significantly increased range and probably 100x the battery life which equates to more time to find the hound.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:11 pm

DGFavor wrote:I don't know squat about training dogs but I have some experience with the technologies - out in the west, IMO, if you've got a dog that gets deep in the country you've gotta use telemetry. They will be out of communication with GPS in about 500yds average, I had my Garmin unit lose communication at 32yds. once (I gave it away), and frequently the units don't seem to pick them back up once they quit "talking" to each other. Every dog I know that has been lost in the last couple of years has had a Garmin around it's neck. I've judged a bit this summer/fall and every handler that asked for his Garmin had difficulty picking the dog back up if they picked up the dog at all. Handlers with telemetry just flicked 'em on and went to the dogs. Pick yourself up a used Tracker Classic for maybe a couple hundred bucks, spend a bit of time figuring it out and you will have better odds of bringing a lost dog home - they give you significantly increased range and probably 100x the battery life which equates to more time to find the hound.
Thanks! Very helpful, I was all set to get the GPS.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by dead mike » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:13 am

I am hearing 600 yards max on these Garmins, and thats in prairie conditions. 600 yrds is squat if a dog goes on a deer, he will be out of range before you look at your screen. Garmin needs to at least double the range before i will consider them

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:28 am

Ive had a dogs at over a mile on mine, but lets be honest 90% of people are using them to find dogs on point in thick cover, not to keep track of huge runners or locate run offs.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:10 am

birddog1968 wrote:Ive had a dogs at over a mile on mine, but lets be honest 90% of people are using them to find dogs on point in thick cover, not to keep track of huge runners or locate run offs.
I agree with Sean above. I have gotten readings of over 1 mile on several occasions and once, when on a hill, 1.4 mi into the low land. 600 yards is FAR from the max range of the Garmin. On flat ground, in mixed cover, 800-900 yard readings are quite normally observed.

You also need to know that there is another antenna available which will extend the range of the unit considerably.

My biggest problem with the Astro is its short battery life, The Tracker collar is active for days and days. The Astro, with a full charge...maybe 18 hours at a 5 second refresh rate.

There is no question that radio telemetry, like the Tracker, has significantly longer range than the Astro and vastly longer collar battery life. However, there is also no question on the superior accuracy and precision of the Astro when it comes to locating a dog.

Like everything else, there is a balance that must be struck, and neither unit is perfect for all applications.

RayG

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by challett3 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:05 pm

Well I let her run on Sunday with the Astro and the DC50 collar. We had her out to about 620 yards. Seemed to be accurate but I was on the 10 second refresh so it was crazy to see her at 125 yards and then 10 seconds later 350 plus yards away. I will switch it to the 5 sec refresh. I have somewhat trained her to come to a whistle for a treat so when she was out there at 600 plus yards I did whistle a couple of times and a few mins later she was back. I let her run 2 more times and the whistle did bring her back. She did learn some lessons in cacti as she kept coming in limping and with spurs on her legs. All in all so far so good well give it another go this weekend.

Thanks to all for your advice and support in helping me realize I had to let her go and trust her to come back.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:55 pm

challett3 wrote:
Thanks to all for your advice and support in helping me realize I had to let her go and trust her to come back.

Scary ain't it? Glad it went well for y'all.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by slistoe » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:31 pm

Sharon wrote:
challett3 wrote:looks like Garmin is going to get so more of my hard earned cash!!

If I use a Garmin do I still want to attach a CC on her or just let her go and try and make sure she looks back to me for H20?

Thanks for all the great replies

No CC on a big running dog ; It can get caught up on a multitude of things.
I have always run a CC on mine - but ensure that it is a proper CC that is hard enough rope it will not wind tight on anything and will slide on any surface. Twisted poly is NOT a choice.

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by DonF » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:11 am

Can't say enough for a proper CC. I also run a CC on young dogs until I've got them standing well and turning pretty well. Tight woven nylon han a hard core. Take it home and throw it in a mud puddle for awhile, helps make it stiffer. Soft CC will wrap around things like a whip. Hard CC bounce's off.
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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by jczv » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:30 am

Since there was a few comments about battery life with the Astro note the dc50 collar has a "rescue mode" feature (the below is from the gundogsupply web site), as noted below it is not the default mode so the original poster may want to figure out how to get this turned on:

NEW: Rescue Mode

When the battery on a tracking collar dies, finding a missing a dog gets a lot more difficult. When the collar battery drops to 25% life, RESCUE MODE changes the update rate to a 2-minute ping to extend battery life which gives you the maximum amount of hours to find a lost dog. Rescue mode is not the default setting. You have to turn it on under SETTINGS. I can't think of a good reason NOT to run your collar in rescue mode because there's no downside to using it.

A few people have posted about a 50% increase in battery life (from about 14 to hours with the dc40 to 20 hours with the dc50 with rescue mode turned on).

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Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:54 am

challett3 wrote:Well I let her run on Sunday with the Astro and the DC50 collar. We had her out to about 620 yards. Seemed to be accurate but I was on the 10 second refresh so it was crazy to see her at 125 yards and then 10 seconds later 350 plus yards away. I will switch it to the 5 sec refresh. I have somewhat trained her to come to a whistle for a treat so when she was out there at 600 plus yards I did whistle a couple of times and a few mins later she was back. I let her run 2 more times and the whistle did bring her back. She did learn some lessons in cacti as she kept coming in limping and with spurs on her legs. All in all so far so good well give it another go this weekend.

Thanks to all for your advice and support in helping me realize I had to let her go and trust her to come back.
Challett3 -

I told you that if a pointer likes you they will come back for you....

I guess she likes you.... Good for you both. Have fun together.

Sooner or later, you gotta let them do what God and the breeder intended them to. If you don't, they will do it anyway, but when you are less prepared for it.

RayG

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Troy08er
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: Bakersfield, Ca.

Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by Troy08er » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:48 pm

+1
JakeLeg wrote:I agree with Ray,and pointers are all business,but when they cherish you they are awesome pets and hunting dogs. God Bless the pointers
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germitt
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by germitt » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:02 pm

I use to put my garmin collars on the hounds. And if you put the long range antenna on the collar and the 220 I have gotten out to two and a half mile all day long. And that's in the mountains here in Utah. I wouldn't leave home without it never had a problem. I sold my telemetry to pay for my GPS. But you do need the long range antennas.

germitt
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: 1st Timer with English Pointer

Post by germitt » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:54 pm

I use to put my garmin collars on the hounds. And if you put the long range antenna on the collar and the 220 I have gotten out to two and a half mile all day long. And that's in the mountains here in Utah. I wouldn't leave home without it never had a problem. I sold my telemetry to pay for my GPS. But you do need the long range antennas.

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