Need a new method.

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CAMO303
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Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:24 am

My 13week GSP won't stop jumping on my son. I understand that my son is the second smallest in the pack next to him, and that he is just looking to play with him. Viewing my son as closer to his size. My son also eggs on a lot of his jumping by forgetting what not to do. Like don't hold whatever is in your hand up higher and don't let him heard you by backing up or in circling away from him and other things like that.. (I think my son tends to forget what not to do in the moment) I realize both my son and dog need direction. Looking for a technique for my son to use to assert a high position above the pup and or aid in stopping the jumping.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by RichK » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:18 am

A couple of knees into the dog with the command "no" will do the job. I'm not talking about kneeing him like you're in a MMA match but enough to get the dog to focus/get off of you.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by vartz04 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:27 am

I have the same problem With the inlaws. They think it's cute and feel bad for him when I yell at him. Now that my weim is older I just make sure he has the E collar on and he gets a nick if he jumps.

Sometimes it's harder to train people than train the dog

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by bonasa » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:37 am

Pushing the dog back and saying back, leave it or simply no will work. I use "leave it" in place of no and back. no sounds like whoa . Be sure to instill this command physically every time in the befinning so the dog knows you mean business and soon you can correct from afar.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:46 am

bonasa wrote:Pushing the dog back and saying back, leave it or simply no will work. I use "leave it" in place of no and back. no sounds like whoa . Be sure to instill this command physically every time in the befinning so the dog knows you mean business and soon you can correct from afar.
He has been doing that but the push makes the dog think he is playing even though he says no. And the dog does know what no means.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:48 am

vartz04 wrote:I have the same problem With the inlaws. They think it's cute and feel bad for him when I yell at him. Now that my weim is older I just make sure he has the E collar on and he gets a nick if he jumps.

Sometimes it's harder to train people than train the dog
The Ecollar will would work when he gets older.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:50 am

RichK wrote:A couple of knees into the dog with the command "no" will do the job. I'm not talking about kneeing him like you're in a MMA match but enough to get the dog to focus/get off of you.
I was thinking about this but couldn't decide if my son would get it right or lose his balance, also was thinking of using the step on his rear paw when up. My son will have to practice using one of these methods.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Neil » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:54 am

Have the son stand still and you train the dog with the ecollar, to not jump up on him or anything else. You just can't expect to leave them unsupervised.

That or realize they both will grow out of it.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Red » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:55 am

he says no
Does the dog know what No means?
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by RichK » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:05 am

CAMO303 wrote:
RichK wrote:A couple of knees into the dog with the command "no" will do the job. I'm not talking about kneeing him like you're in a MMA match but enough to get the dog to focus/get off of you.
I was thinking about this but couldn't decide if my son would get it right or lose his balance, also was thinking of using the step on his rear paw when up. My son will have to practice using one of these methods.
Even just shoving the dog down and telling him no will probably work. My pup did the same thing, would jump on everyone and I mean jump like Jordan. A week of training and he doesn't do it anymore, even if you tell him to.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:12 am

CAMO303 wrote:
bonasa wrote:[/u] he says no. And the dog does know what no means.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:15 am

Red wrote:
he says no
Does the dog know what No means?
Yes if you go back and finish reading the statement just after the part you quoted it says And the dog knows what no means.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:35 pm

The knee to the chest is the easiest, fastest, and safest method. When the dog jumps up, knee him hard in the chest, knocking him backwards, and sharply say NO!!!. When you think he's trained, pat your chest an tempt him, then knee him hard when he falls for it.

I never use and ecollar in this situation; too much chance the dog will associate it with the person he's jumping on and bite him. Thirteen weeks is very, very young to be putting an ecollar on a pup.

The knee method is most effective IF your son is old enough. IF he isn't, you're the man, it's up to you.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:46 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:The knee to the chest is the easiest, fastest, and safest method. When the dog jumps up, knee him hard in the chest, knocking him backwards, and sharply say NO!!!. When you think he's trained, pat your chest an tempt him, then knee him hard when he falls for it.

I never use and ecollar in this situation; too much chance the dog will associate it with the person he's jumping on and bite him. Thirteen weeks is very, very young to be putting an ecollar on a pup.

The knee method is most effective IF your son is old enough. IF he isn't, you're the man, it's up to you.
I agree he is to young for the collar. I'm sure he will need it when he gets older, but for now he is learning what he should be doing and not doing threw positive reinforcement and a little discipline (something besides a collar due to his age) I don't smack him around either I don't need him fearing my hand. I'm going to teach my son the knee method.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by birddogger » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:48 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:The knee to the chest is the easiest, fastest, and safest method. When the dog jumps up, knee him hard in the chest, knocking him backwards, and sharply say NO!!!. When you think he's trained, pat your chest an tempt him, then knee him hard when he falls for it.

I never use and ecollar in this situation; too much chance the dog will associate it with the person he's jumping on and bite him. Thirteen weeks is very, very young to be putting an ecollar on a pup.

The knee method is most effective IF your son is old enough. IF he isn't, you're the man, it's up to you.
Yep, this is what I do and if they even look like they want to jump, I just raise my knee and they settle down. Doesn't take long and doesn't hurt them a bit.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:44 pm

To put this in perspective the op says the dog understands the word no. At this point if there is no consequence to a command of no, then the word is actually meaningless. If you say no and do not correct, the dog gets no benefit from you saying it. The more you use the word no with no correction the worse it will be. Use no and correct some of the time and it will be even more confusing to the dog. You say that you are correcting the dog but the dog does not understand the correction and confuses it as play. This is not a correction. To be a correction it has to be meaningful to the dog as it relates to the desire of the dog at the moment it is happening. Some dogs desire to do things are greater than others depending on the behavior. So the dog is too young to be corrected in a meaningful way and what you are training into the dog is that the word no has no meaning at all. Sometimes a bonker works well enough in that the dog may see the towel rolled up and thrown over its head as meaningful and may stop the behavior without too much pressure on a young dog. In the event that a bonker does not work another method altogether would be to train an alternate behavior so that the dog sees its interaction with your son as beneficial one in a different way. Training sit to greet is great in that it puts the dog in a posture where your son can interact. If the dog sees your son as the way to get a treat every time he sits in front of him then thats what the dog will do. Some people do not like to teach a pointing dog to sit in that a dog will revert to what it knows best or learned last when learning new behaviors. You could chose another behavior as long as you are consistent with it. As the dog is performing the behavior give the treats less and less. As the treats diminish the dogs desire for them will grow and the behavior will become ingrained. After the behavior is ingrained treat as a jackpot on occasion.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by bonasa » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:53 pm

The dog needs physical correction by you first either a knee or your hands then like everything else you must overlay it to a voice command.It must be personal (hands on and with authority) as a child has not enough authority to their hands knee or voice to get the point across . How old is child?

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by SD44 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:10 pm

How old is your son?

I had the same problem. My GSP is just turned 13 weeks old and my son is 4. The problem we had was that my son could not knee him hard enough to get the dog off of him.

We fixed the problem by having my son step on his hind paws when he jumped up. You don't have to stomp on the paws but just slight pressure. It only took a 2 or 3 times and so far we haven't had any more jumping.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by kninebirddog » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:13 pm

I would not use the e collar for this at all

What I do is change the game.... for jumpers is when they jump up I grab their front paws very firmly and pull up just enough where it becomes uncomfortable just where the front legs are some what extended. Squeeze the paws very firmly where it to becomes very uncomfortable and just keep that hold till the dog stops struggling drops its head and sighs. If they jump again I repeat process...after a couple times the dog will not like the new game.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Neil » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:46 pm

Sorry, I missed the age of the pup, he is too young for the ecollar, but not too young for you to train.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Georgia Boy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:15 pm

I use the command OFF, NO sounds like WHOA. Stepping on the rear feet can work, so can a knee but I pinch in between their toes when the jump up, I have had the best results with that personally.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by buckshot1 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:57 pm

CAMO303 wrote:
vartz04 wrote:I have the same problem With the inlaws. They think it's cute and feel bad for him when I yell at him. Now that my weim is older I just make sure he has the E collar on and he gets a nick if he jumps.

Sometimes it's harder to train people than train the dog
The Ecollar will would work when he gets older.
I would NEVER use an e-collar in this situation. As a general rule, you should only use the e-collar when the dog is away from you so that he doesn't associate you with the e-collar. If you use the e-collar while he's jumping on your son, he will think your son shocked him. The result will be the same as if your son beats him in the head with a stick every time he jumps up.

I would have your son walk into the dog until the dog turns the other way every time he tries to jump. The jumping is a dominance test, as you already mentioned. Your son needs to assert dominance by walking into him. A knee to his belly that's not too hard also works, but your pup is probably still too small for that.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Red » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:02 pm

Yes if you go back and finish reading the statement
Sorry I missed that.
At this point if there is no consequence to a command of no, then the word is actually meaningless.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Fran Seagren » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:08 pm

buckshot1 wrote: As a general rule, you should only use the e-collar when the dog is away from you so that he doesn't associate you with the e-collar.

The jumping is a dominance test, as you already mentioned.
I respectfully disagree with these two comments. Dogs not only "should" know where the correction is coming from, they absolutely "do" know it is coming from the handler/me. Many of us believe an e-collar correction should only be given when a dog disobeys a command that has already been taught. If the dog doesn't know the correction is coming from the handler, then how does training make any sense?

I also don't believe that when a puppy (or adult dog) jumps up on a person or a kid, he is necessarily being dominant. Most times, he just wants to get closer to your face because he's a friendly, outgoing puppy. Jumping up on people is just another thing that normal puppies and dogs will do if not trained otherwise. Kids and dogs can be the best of buddies, but it's hard for a 4 yr-old to be a consistent dog trainer. For that matter, it's hard for us to be consistent! :D That's why puppies and kids need to be supervised.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by slistoe » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:22 pm

A natural reaction for many people when a dog comes at them is to back away with the hands in front of them. This is a reaction that many folks who are nervous with dogs will display without thinking. I have not been using the knee to the chest for quite sometime - instead I use the palm of my hand on the end of the nose. The dog jumps up and his nose becomes uncomfortable. If you hold your hand there, everytime the dog jumps he makes contact with the hand. The dog very quickly realizes that he is causing the discomfort himself by the action of jumping. If the child is old enough to be coordinated enough to make the dogs nose contact his hand then he can enforce the "no jumping" once the cause and effect have been established in the dogs mind. The other nice thing is that it does not require the same strength as kneeing the dog so even smaller children can enforce effectively. The forward facing palm very quickly becomes a no jump command and is effective for all people the dog may come in contact with.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Fran Seagren » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:13 pm

slistoe wrote:A natural reaction for many people when a dog comes at them is to back away with the hands in front of them. This is a reaction that many folks who are nervous with dogs will display without thinking. I have not been using the knee to the chest for quite sometime - instead I use the palm of my hand on the end of the nose. The dog jumps up and his nose becomes uncomfortable. If you hold your hand there, everytime the dog jumps he makes contact with the hand. The dog very quickly realizes that he is causing the discomfort himself by the action of jumping. If the child is old enough to be coordinated enough to make the dogs nose contact his hand then he can enforce the "no jumping" once the cause and effect have been established in the dogs mind. The other nice thing is that it does not require the same strength as kneeing the dog so even smaller children can enforce effectively. The forward facing palm very quickly becomes a no jump command and is effective for all people the dog may come in contact with.
This is the method I use - the flat hand to the nose. It's also relatively easy for my 5-yr old granddaughter to do. The "hand to their nose" also does not take the amount of coordination a knee to a dog's chest requires. When most puppies are jumping on kids, they are moving all around - so is the kid. A kid can get their hand out there pushing back at the dog's nose and still have their two feet on the ground "countering" the pup's friendly attack. It's easier for me, too.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:45 am

Less chance for the kid to get nipped with a knee to the chest. Pups LOVE biting hands or fingers.
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Re: Need a new method.

Post by CAMO303 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:25 am

4dabirds wrote:To put this in perspective the op says the dog understands the word no. At this point if there is no consequence to a command of no, then the word is actually meaningless. If you say no and do not correct, the dog gets no benefit from you saying it. The more you use the word no with no correction the worse it will be. Use no and correct some of the time and it will be even more confusing to the dog. You say that you are correcting the dog but the dog does not understand the correction and confuses it as play. This is not a correction. To be a correction it has to be meaningful to the dog as it relates to the desire of the dog at the moment it is happening. Some dogs desire to do things are greater than others depending on the behavior. So the dog is too young to be corrected in a meaningful way and what you are training into the dog is that the word no has no meaning at all. Sometimes a bonker works well enough in that the dog may see the towel rolled up and thrown over its head as meaningful and may stop the behavior without too much pressure on a young dog. In the event that a bonker does not work another method altogether would be to train an alternate behavior so that the dog sees its interaction with your son as beneficial one in a different way. Training sit to greet is great in that it puts the dog in a posture where your son can interact. If the dog sees your son as the way to get a treat every time he sits in front of him then thats what the dog will do. Some people do not like to teach a pointing dog to sit in that a dog will revert to what it knows best or learned last when learning new behaviors. You could chose another behavior as long as you are consistent with it. As the dog is performing the behavior give the treats less and less. As the treats diminish the dogs desire for them will grow and the behavior will become ingrained. After the behavior is ingrained treat as a jackpot on occasion.
This good advice. To shed a little more light on the subject between Camo and I there is a stronger connection. He holds more respect for me because he sees me as alpha and all the time I spend daily training and playing with him. He receives correction with the word no when he does not respond. He is NOT a soft pup. Once when having to assert dominance I used the pin him on his side with two hands he would not submit. He must flaid around for at least five min. Most pups will give up. Well grabbing his snout and holding it while staring him in the eyes gets him to park his but and submit with in seconds. The point is I have found it takes different methods to correct or teach him. When my 7year old son pushes him he does not see it as correction. Had my son try the knee thing he just jumped right back up. Had my son step on his back toe when up in the air. Thr dog welped and got off him. The dog tried again same result except this time he did not try to jump again. The point is he responds to some things and other things not at all. I will try the treat thing as well. He can learn threw the positive training and negative should he jump. Thanks for the advice.

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by buckshot1 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:22 pm

Fran Seagren wrote:
buckshot1 wrote: As a general rule, you should only use the e-collar when the dog is away from you so that he doesn't associate you with the e-collar.

The jumping is a dominance test, as you already mentioned.
I respectfully disagree with these two comments. Dogs not only "should" know where the correction is coming from, they absolutely "do" know it is coming from the handler/me. Many of us believe an e-collar correction should only be given when a dog disobeys a command that has already been taught. If the dog doesn't know the correction is coming from the handler, then how does training make any sense?

I also don't believe that when a puppy (or adult dog) jumps up on a person or a kid, he is necessarily being dominant. Most times, he just wants to get closer to your face because he's a friendly, outgoing puppy. Jumping up on people is just another thing that normal puppies and dogs will do if not trained otherwise. Kids and dogs can be the best of buddies, but it's hard for a 4 yr-old to be a consistent dog trainer. For that matter, it's hard for us to be consistent! :D That's why puppies and kids need to be supervised.
I don't see how the dog could possibly know what shocked him unless he's become collar wise, in which case he thinks the collar shocked him, or he's standing next to you when it happens, in which case he thinks you're the one that shocked him. Why does the dog need to know that the shock came from the handler for the correction to make sense? As long as the dog knows that he'll feel something uncomfortable every time he blows you off, he'll avoid the behavior that caused him to feel uncomfortable. My first dog training experiences were with labs, and I was always taught to avoid using the collar on your lab when he's right next to you during handling training. You want the area right next to you to be a safe zone so the dog doesn't resent you. The beauty of the e-collar is that you can induce avoidance behavior without the dog thinking you're the bad guy. Having the dog think you shocked him defeats that purpose. Think about snake training. The dog learns to stay away from the snake because he gets shocked every time he gets close to it. If you shock your dog every time he tries to jump on your son, won't he respond by staying away from your son?

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:04 pm

buckshot1 wrote:
Fran Seagren wrote:
buckshot1 wrote: As a general rule, you should only use the e-collar when the dog is away from you so that he doesn't associate you with the e-collar.

The jumping is a dominance test, as you already mentioned.
I respectfully disagree with these two comments. Dogs not only "should" know where the correction is coming from, they absolutely "do" know it is coming from the handler/me. Many of us believe an e-collar correction should only be given when a dog disobeys a command that has already been taught. If the dog doesn't know the correction is coming from the handler, then how does training make any sense?

I also don't believe that when a puppy (or adult dog) jumps up on a person or a kid, he is necessarily being dominant. Most times, he just wants to get closer to your face because he's a friendly, outgoing puppy. Jumping up on people is just another thing that normal puppies and dogs will do if not trained otherwise. Kids and dogs can be the best of buddies, but it's hard for a 4 yr-old to be a consistent dog trainer. For that matter, it's hard for us to be consistent! :D That's why puppies and kids need to be supervised.
Yes, he would learn to avoid the child, unless invited. But as many have pointed out the dog is a little young for the e-collar.

I don't see how the dog could possibly know what shocked him unless he's become collar wise, in which case he thinks the collar shocked him, or he's standing next to you when it happens, in which case he thinks you're the one that shocked him. Why does the dog need to know that the shock came from the handler for the correction to make sense? As long as the dog knows that he'll feel something uncomfortable every time he blows you off, he'll avoid the behavior that caused him to feel uncomfortable. My first dog training experiences were with labs, and I was always taught to avoid using the collar on your lab when he's right next to you during handling training. You want the area right next to you to be a safe zone so the dog doesn't resent you. The beauty of the e-collar is that you can induce avoidance behavior without the dog thinking you're the bad guy. Having the dog think you shocked him defeats that purpose. Think about snake training. The dog learns to stay away from the snake because he gets shocked every time he gets close to it. If you shock your dog every time he tries to jump on your son, won't he respond by staying away from your son?

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Re: Need a new method.

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:43 pm

buckshot1 wrote:I don't see how the dog could possibly know what shocked him unless he's become collar wise, in which case he thinks the collar shocked him, or he's standing next to you when it happens, in which case he thinks you're the one that shocked him.
Buckshot-
A dog that's "collar-wise" isn't questioning itself of where a collar correction "came from". In fact, if he's behaving as a "collar-wise" dog there's absolutely no question in the world where the stim is coming from-

Because there is none- dog isn't wearing an E-collar to recieve any stim-->and the dog knows it.
Why does the dog need to know that the shock came from the handler for the correction to make sense? As long as the dog knows that he'll feel something uncomfortable every time he blows you off, he'll avoid the behavior that caused him to feel uncomfortable
.
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer 'Buck, but I'll try to explain it the best I can-
Lets say you're in the training field, and the field is featureless all except one nice Oak tree in the center of it. You SEND the dog on a blind and the dog didn't take a very good line and runs offline 20degrees straight to that nice big Oak. Now you have to STOP the dog to handle him. Whistle SIT*nick SIT. The dog stopped on command and SITS to take your cast.

Just so happens he's 5yds. from the tree.
Do you want him to "think" the Oak tree *nicked him or that YOU *nicked him? :)

You are the trainer.You make the corrections. And if the dog doesn't come to understand, (and if you don't teach the dog), that those corrections come from you, the dog will never know where it's coming from. There's commands associated with collar pressure. And those commands come from you, and so do the corrections. The dog comes to that understanding in Collar Conditioning if it's properly done.

Think about snake training. The dog learns to stay away from the snake because he gets shocked every time he gets close to it.

Right-
But remember, ..there's no command for that if the dog is 100yds. away from you!
If you shock your dog every time he tries to jump on your son, won't he respond by staying away from your son?
No he shouldn't-
Because there's a command associated with the correction- and it comes from......... you

Regardless -
It's obvious this pup is too young for collar pressure right now.

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