Steady to WSF Hunting question

[Smoking aces]

My almost two year old shorthair who I have been breaking on birds and doing great with is backing, pointing, standing her birds thru flush, and thru the shot, my question is I plan on running her in a couple field trials next year and I having her to this point I would like to get her to be steady until sent on a retrieve but with Pheasant hunting season almost a week away here in Minnesota what are your guys opinons on working on this thru hunting? I hunt 7 days a week until daylight savings time changes then every weekend. My worries are if she breaks on when the pheasants hit the ground after being shot should I whoa her and not let her retrieve or whoa her bring her back to where she was then send her on the retrieve? I would like to have her understand that since this is hunting its not time to start free wheeling, any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[gonehuntin']

Hunt like you train. You cannot expect to have the dog break hunting then stay steady in trials. Not fair to the dog and it plain won't work.

[Gooseman07]

My thoughts would be to hunt like normal and every time the dog breaks on the shot, say NO!, low stim and bring them back to the spot then you go retrieve it. I know it sounds crappy but you need to teach them they may not get every retrieve and it will encourage your steadiness. It worked well for me when I did it. E-collar is a GREAT tool to have as well.

[cmc274]

You arent going to have a whole lot of fun trying to train while you hunt. If you were willing to give up killing birds until she is dead broke, or if you could control the dog while someone else shoots, that might be best, otherwise let her chase this hunting season, and then finish breaking her through the kill next spring / summer and polish her on wild birds in the fall. It will definitely be a step or two backwards, but trying to watch a dog and kill birds at the same time is impossible.

[UplandJim]

I have two dogs. One for hunting and one for field trialing. The FT pup will get to hunt wild birds either when he earns his FC or it appears that he is not FT material. The hunting pup I got a few weeks ago as a rescue of sorts. He is almost 2 years old and he was poorly trained and is not FT worthy but he will put wild birds in the air and I'll shoot them, a win-win situation.

If you want to FT and win do not hunt him - yet. If you want to FT and just enjoy the camaraderie then by all means proceed.

I by no means want to sound eliteish as this is my first FT pup, but I expect no less from him.

[cmc274]

I have two dogs. One for hunting and one for field trialing. The FT pup will get to hunt wild birds either when he earns his FC or it appears that he is not FT material. The hunting pup I got a few weeks ago as a rescue of sorts. He is almost 2 years old and he was poorly trained and is not FT worthy but he will put wild birds in the air and I'll shoot them, a win-win situation.

If you want to FT and win do not hunt him. If you want to FT and just enjoy the camaraderie then by all means proceed.

I by no means want to sound eliteish as this is my first FT pup, but I expect no less from him.

I disagree that you cannot hunt a field trial dog. You just have to keep the rules the same. Best field trialers in the country take their dogs hunting every workout and kill a bunch of birds over them. Just happens to be done from the back of a horse.

[UplandJim]

I have two dogs. One for hunting and one for field trialing. The FT pup will get to hunt wild birds either when he earns his FC or it appears that he is not FT material. The hunting pup I got a few weeks ago as a rescue of sorts. He is almost 2 years old and he was poorly trained and is not FT worthy but he will put wild birds in the air and I'll shoot them, a win-win situation.

If you want to FT and win do not hunt him. If you want to FT and just enjoy the camaraderie then by all means proceed.

I by no means want to sound eliteish as this is my first FT pup, but I expect no less from him.

I disagree that you cannot hunt a field trial dog. You just have to keep the rules the same. Best field trialers in the country take their dogs hunting every workout and kill a bunch of birds over them. Just happens to be done from the back of a horse.

Sure but those dogs are seasoned and are probably 3, 4 maybe 5 years old or older. Taking a dog out for a controlled hunt is different than hunting grouse up on the ridge or woodcock down in the bottom. The OP has an "untrained" dog as far as FT specs are concerned.

[Neil]

Correct the dog before he breaks, he will tell you he is going. But this only works after countless hours of working on steady, so he has learned he is not to move after you go in front of him.

I can shoot and train, it has taken years of practice. I train all my dogs to steady, and do hunt my field trial dogs. I carry my e-collar upside down from a beltloop on my left side. I can shoot, drop my left hand to correct and shoot again. Like I said I have had a lot of practice, though I do miss some. But you are only allowed 3 pheasants, so I can pass up a few.

I have found trial dogs that are hunted have more drive and find more birds.

Good hunting

[UplandJim]

Correct the dog before he breaks, he will tell you he is going. But this only works after countless hours of working on steady, so he has learned he is not to move after you go in front of him.

I can shoot and train, it has taken years of practice. I train all my dogs to steady, and do hunt my field trial dogs. I carry my e-collar upside down from a beltloop on my left side. I can shoot, drop my left hand to correct and shoot again. Like I said I have had a lot of practice, though I do miss some. But you are only allowed 3 pheasants, so I can pass up a few.

I have found trial dogs that are hunted have more drive and find more birds.

Good hunting

I understand that having an opposing view feels empowering but YOU have experience training FT dogs on wild birds. It takes A LOT of experience to do that successfully. The OP has ZERO. It's simply up to him, as I pointed out in my initial post ... hunt now, FT for fun. hunt later, FT to win.

A good example would be if the OP's dog points, is steady and is then sent on a retrieve. What if the retrieve it 100+ yards and is unmarked? Does the OP's dog know directionals at this point or does the OP go and retrieve the bird FOR the dog?

I'm not saying it's impossible to hunt a FT dog but you have to look at what the dog may learn - good or bad - this early in the game on wild birds versus focused FT training.

[UplandJim]

Correct the dog before he breaks, he will tell you he is going. But this only works after countless hours of working on steady, so he has learned he is not to move after you go in front of him.

I can shoot and train, it has taken years of practice. I train all my dogs to steady, and do hunt my field trial dogs. I carry my e-collar upside down from a beltloop on my left side. I can shoot, drop my left hand to correct and shoot again. Like I said I have had a lot of practice, though I do miss some. But you are only allowed 3 pheasants, so I can pass up a few.

I have found trial dogs that are hunted have more drive and find more birds.

Good hunting

I understand that having an opposing view feels empowering but YOU have experience training FT dogs on wild birds. It takes A LOT of experience to do that successfully. The OP has ZERO. It's simply up to him, as I pointed out in my initial post ... hunt now, FT for fun. hunt later, FT to win.

A good example would be if the OP's dog points, is steady and is then sent on a retrieve. What if the retrieve it 100+ yards and is unmarked? Does the OP's dog know directionals at this point or does the OP go and retrieve the bird FOR the dog?

I'm not saying it's impossible to hunt a FT dog but you have to look at what the dog may learn - good or bad - this early in the game on wild birds versus focused FT training.

It may be important to point out that I am coming from a perspective of AKC field trialing English Cockers where NO e-collars are used (not that there's anything wrong with that). Any spaniel judge worth their weight can tell an e-collared dog (not that there's anything wrong with that) from a traditionally trained dog.

[UplandJim]

My almost two year old shorthair who I have been breaking on birds and doing great with is backing, pointing, standing her birds thru flush, and thru the shot, my question is I plan on running her in a couple field trials next year and I having her to this point I would like to get her to be steady until sent on a retrieve but with Pheasant hunting season almost a week away here in Minnesota what are your guys opinons on working on this thru hunting? I hunt 7 days a week until daylight savings time changes then every weekend. My worries are if she breaks on when the pheasants hit the ground after being shot should I whoa her and not let her retrieve or whoa her bring her back to where she was then send her on the retrieve? I would like to have her understand that since this is hunting its not time to start free wheeling, any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Okay, to answer your real question. If the dog breaks you should not (IMHO) send the dog on the retrieve.

[birddog1968]

Hunting is not always conducive to trialing and alot of times counter productive.....

[Neil]

Hunting is not always conducive to trialing and alot of times counter productive.....

I really don't disagree with that. I have lost trials because I hunt my dogs and have them retrieve; they did move to mark more than some judges like and were not always 100% staunch when younger. And a delayed chase is a fear on poor flying birds.

But my dogs rarely go birdless, I believe that is directly related to their wild bird hunting. So it is a trade off I am happy to make. A dog that doesn't point birds is not going to win anything.

It is up to the OP, he could try it and see how it goes. If the dog gets a little sloppy, he can back off and train. He is talking about hunting everyday until DST ends, and then every weekend, so he is investing the time.

The best advice I have seen here is hunt the same way you train.

Oh, I don't have them retrieve every bird. I keep the guessing, it keeps them on their toes.

[Meller]

What venue of Field Trailing are you looking at?

[Smoking aces]

Thanks for the info..looking at akc gun dog stakes

[SetterNut]

Take a kid hunting with you to do the shooting and you train rather than shoot.
You can get them broke hunting, but only if you insist on it.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Try hunting with your blank pistol some. Wild birds are good for the dog. When you and the dog are confident with the work he is doing bring the shotgun. First bird you kill will tell you if you have more training to do. Other option is like Chris said, hunt him this year, don't let him get away with murder, and break and polish him this spring/summer and go into next trail season confident with an experience dog that will be ready to compete. There is no rule your dog has to FT this year and I see a whole lot of dogs that should be given another year to mature and gain experience before being thrown in GD stakes before they were ready. Nothing wrong with hunting a trial dog on wild birds if you are willing to follow the rules. If you gotta throw lead at anything that flies and can't pass up shots when the dog makes a mistake then it wont work.

[Neil]

Try hunting with your blank pistol some. Wild birds are good for the dog. When you and the dog are confident with the work he is doing bring the shotgun. First bird you kill will tell you if you have more training to do. Other option is like Chris said, hunt him this year, don't let him get away with murder, and break and polish him this spring/summer and go into next trail season confident with an experience dog that will be ready to compete. There is no rule your dog has to FT this year and I see a whole lot of dogs that should be given another year to mature and gain experience before being thrown in GD stakes before they were ready. Nothing wrong with hunting a trial dog on wild birds if you are willing to follow the rules. If you gotta throw lead at anything that flies and can't pass up shots when the dog makes a mistake then it wont work.

Shooting birds when a dog makes a mistake may not work for you, and may not work for the OP, but is has worked for me for over 40 years. I just keep training, and don't pay much attention to mistakes. You are making a rather broad statement, one many have disproved.

Neil

[gonehuntin']

Smoking Aces; it may help you to think about your dog like this: Every time you reinforce an undesired behavior, it will take you longer to perfect the desired behavior. Although I agree with Neil on many things he says, this is one that I vehemently disagree with. When you allow a dog to make uncorrected mistakes, it takes longer to train that dog. Kind of like teaching WHOA:let the dog move when you command WHOA and only stop him forcefully once every few times he moves, and it's going to take a loooooong time to WHOA break that dog. same with steady to wsf. IMO.

[Neil]

Smoking Aces; it may help you to think about your dog like this: Every time you reinforce an undesired behavior, it will take you longer to perfect the desired behavior. Although I agree with Neil on many things he says, this is one that I vehemently disagree with. When you allow a dog to make uncorrected mistakes, it takes longer to train that dog. Kind of like teaching WHOA:let the dog move when you command WHOA and only stop him forcefully once every few times he moves, and it's going to take a loooooong time to WHOA break that dog. same with steady to wsf. IMO.

Wait, we don't disagree, I always correct the improper behavior, I just don't worry about shooting. Like you say, you have to hunt the way you train, and you have to train to field trial standards. And hold those standards when hunting. Once I get to him on point any movement is corrected, I don't care what the reason he is not allowed to move. That includes earthquakes and for sure a few shots and birds falling. Steady means steady.

Neil

[Neil]

I will respond to my own post. When you consider what is expected of a field trial dog; bracrmate stealing point, taking their birds out, the other handler's scout riding about, your scout doing the same, the other handler bellowing, the judge and a 40 horse gallary galloping up, poor flying birds that just flutter up after running around and behind, nervious handler stumbling trying to flush, blank pistols not firing, and a couple dozen other distractions.

A few shots and 2 or 3 birds falling is nothing.

I am not saying a steady diet of shooting unpointed birds or other baubles is a good thing, just compared to all the other things you must train for, it is just not a big deal.

Take the dog hunting, what he will learn far outweighs any precieved, possible harm.

Neil

[Winchey]

Hunting is not always conducive to trialing and alot of times counter productive.....

I really don't disagree with that. I have lost trials because I hunt my dogs and have them retrieve; they did move to mark more than some judges like and were not always 100% staunch when younger. And a delayed chase is a fear on poor flying birds.

But my dogs rarely go birdless, I believe that is directly related to their wild bird hunting. So it is a trade off I am happy to make. A dog that doesn't point birds is not going to win anything.

It is up to the OP, he could try it and see how it goes. If the dog gets a little sloppy, he can back off and train. He is talking about hunting everyday until DST ends, and then every weekend, so he is investing the time.

The best advice I have seen here is hunt the same way you train.

Oh, I don't have them retrieve every bird. I keep the guessing, it keeps them on their toes.

Bang on IMO. There are more important things than having the dog that is broke the best. I wouldn't trial if I couldn't hunt them. I am not even sure how you can develop a bird finder without hunting the crap out of them.

[slistoe]

There are lots of folks who hunt with steady dogs. They don't trial. How do the rest of you suppose that the dogs got to be steady if they were not hunted? That is what they are - hunting dogs. And their owners certainly didn't wait till the dog was 3+ years old to go hunting with them.
Steady is a process over time. If you expect your second season hunting dog to be perfect then you will always be disappointed.
Hunt your dog. Try to maintain consistency in your training.

[Neil]

There are lots of folks who hunt with steady dogs. They don't trial. How do the rest of you suppose that the dogs got to be steady if they were not hunted? That is what they are - hunting dogs. And their owners certainly didn't wait till the dog was 3+ years old to go hunting with them.
Steady is a process over time. If you expect your second season hunting dog to be perfect then you will always be disappointed.
Hunt your dog. Try to maintain consistency in your training.

Yes

[UplandJim]

There are lots of folks who hunt with steady dogs. They don't trial. How do the rest of you suppose that the dogs got to be steady if they were not hunted? That is what they are - hunting dogs. And their owners certainly didn't wait till the dog was 3+ years old to go hunting with them.
Steady is a process over time. If you expect your second season hunting dog to be perfect then you will always be disappointed.
Hunt your dog. Try to maintain consistency in your training.

Yes

No

For trialing, you create mock trials on your own. Plant Pigeon, Chukar and Pheasant.

If you just want to argue that's fine. I will not respond. The OP specifically mentioned trialing.

The question is not whether or not you can hunt a trial dog (yes you can). It's whether you can hunt a field trial prospect in the first year (or so) while training.

[UplandJim]

I am not even sure how you can develop a bird finder without hunting the crap out of them.

Dogs that find birds is an instinctual trait. They are born that way. IF they are NOT born ""bird finders", then they should NOT be bred. Period. Same thing with retrieving.

[Neil]

I am not even sure how you can develop a bird finder without hunting the crap out of them.

Dogs that find birds is an instinctual trait. They are born that way. IF they are NOT born ""bird finders", then they should NOT be bred. Period. Same thing with retrieving.

I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. All great dogs are developed, perhaps you have never seen a great one.

And Jim you are equally wrong.

Neither of you give facts, just opinions.

[UplandJim]

I am not even sure how you can develop a bird finder without hunting the crap out of them.

Dogs that find birds is an instinctual trait. They are born that way. IF they are NOT born ""bird finders", then they should NOT be bred. Period. Same thing with retrieving.

I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. All great dogs are developed, perhaps you have never seen a great one.

And Jim you are equally wrong.

Neither of you give facts, just opinions.

Fine. You can develop the existing birdiness, sure (that's easy). But you cannot create it.
(I guess "hunting" in Winchey's post could also mean "mock trialing".)

[UplandJim]

perhaps you have never seen a great one.

In the realm of cockers in AKC trials?

[Sharon]

My almost two year old shorthair who I have been breaking on birds and doing great with is backing, pointing, standing her birds thru flush, and thru the shot, my question is I plan on running her in a couple field trials next year and I having her to this point I would like to get her to be steady until sent on a retrieve but with Pheasant hunting season almost a week away here in Minnesota what are your guys opinons on working on this thru hunting? I hunt 7 days a week until daylight savings time changes then every weekend. My worries are if she breaks on when the pheasants hit the ground after being shot should I whoa her and not let her retrieve or whoa her bring her back to where she was then send her on the retrieve? I would like to have her understand that since this is hunting its not time to start free wheeling, any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

....................................................................................

"whoa her bring her back to where she was then send her on the retrieve? " is what I would do. If someone else could do the shooting some days , it would give you a perfect chance to work on what you want concerning the retrieve.

I thought this was good advice too:

"My thoughts would be to hunt like normal and every time the dog breaks on the shot, say NO!, low stim and bring them back to the spot then you go retrieve it. I know it sounds crappy but you need to teach them they may not get every retrieve and it will encourage your steadiness. It worked well for me when I did it. E-collar is a GREAT tool to have as well."quote
Gooseman07

"Correct the dog before he breaks, he will tell you he is going. But this only works after countless hours of working on steady, so he has learned he is not to move after you go in front of him." quote Neil

[Neil]

perhaps you have never seen a great one.

In the realm of cockers in AKC trials?

Oh, I've seen the best.

You do know we are talking about a pointing dog? That are expected to hunt at extended range, not within shotgun range.

But having trained a number of Boykins, I can tell you are wrong about flushing dogs. Great dogs are not born, they are developed. They are not born with the ability to hunt. It must be nurtured.

Do you really think the best dogs you have seen do it on their own?

I tire of the nonsense.

[Neil]

I have never seen any value in bringing the dog back to the point of infractions, I just stop them. They will learn to not move for any reason.

[Winchey]

Neil I have no idea what you are talking about, when did I say you don't need to develop them?

And no Jim, they don't get really good at finding wild birds without hunting them on wild birds, they also don't get good at handling wild birds without finding a ton of wild birds. I don't really do many mock trials to develop them.

I don't know anything about spaniel trials, but if you want to compete in wild bird pointing dog trials the dog needs to be run on wild birds.

[UplandJim]

perhaps you have never seen a great one.

In the realm of cockers in AKC trials?

Oh, I've seen the best.

You do know we are talking about a pointing dog? That are expected to hunt at extended range, not within shotgun range.

But having trained a number of Boykins, I can tell you are wrong about flushing dogs. Great dogs are not born, they are developed. They are not born with the ability to hunt. It must be nurtured.

Do you really think the best dogs you have seen do it on their own?

I tire of the nonsense.

As far as hunting is concerned, it doesn't matter if the dog is a pointer or a flusher.

I have personally trained with the best Cocker trialer in the United States.

If you need an e-collar to train a (flushing) dog then you are doing the breed a disservice. Great dogs ARE one-of-a-kind.

You need to reread your post.

Yes ... great dogs ARE developed, but only if they are born with ability.

[Neil]

Neil I have no idea what you are talking about, when did I say you don't need to develop them?

It was not in response to anything you have said, we agree.

Please go back and read the previous posts that do not agree with you. It was to them I take exception, in your defense.

[Neil]

Jim, it is you that need to work on your reading. The OP asked about a pointing dog.

I would like to know the name of the cocker pro you trained under, because you are wrong about flushing dogs, too.

Neil

[UplandJim]

Jim, it is you that need to work on your reading. The OP asked about a pointing dog.

I would like to know the name of the cocker pro you trained under, because you are wrong about flushing dogs, too.

Neil

Wow.

I'm sorry, but my "pro" sources are far too prominent to extol on gundogforum.com

I've done my research. If other readers on here want the same level of knowledge I suggest they seek it out themselves.

I know that's vague.

My real beef on here (this forum) is the misinformation. There are LOADS upon loads of BS advice on here and it sickens me.

I honestly don't know why I keep coming back here. I think it's because I have high hopes for people like Cass. Any other reason I'm on here is just boredom.

[Sharon]

It's not a "spaniel forum" so we are going to bore you a great deal.

[Neil]

Jim,

You claim BS and misinformation from others, while you respond to a pointing dog thread with your faulty beliefs about flushing dogs.

Are you drunk? Just argumentative?

[slistoe]

It's whether you can hunt a field trial prospect in the first year (or so) while training.

Yes you can. Period. Or maybe I was just dreaming that I won trials with those dogs.

[gonehuntin']

When dogs become trial wise, one of the factors can be that they are worked under controlled conditions most or all of the time. Hunting the dog gives us a means to negate this behavior. The key is YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THE DOG WHILE YOU HUNT so he realizes he has no safe area, no place he does not have to respond correctly when commanded. This is the real value in hunting a dog.

Now you have to train yourself. The bird is very secondary while hunting a dog, especially a young dog. Make the dog perform to your standard while hunting him and you'll end up with a great dog.

[UplandJim]

Jim <--- Has been know to be argumentative. :roll:

[Winchey]

I know some pros cringe at the thought of certain owners hunting some of the dogs they worked hard on. It could keep you in business though lol.

[birddog1968]

In relation to the OP's post and what I responded with "it can be counter productive"- I was refering to a young dog and pheasant.

A good wild Pheasant dog will be doing things that will get you picked up in a trail, not that it can't be done but you have to realize the differences in hunting wild phez and running in a planted field trial and the expectations the judges have on how a dog should preform. Its not the same game at all.

In my case wild phez hunting and working on a preserve were not doing my dog any favors in shoot to retrieve trials as compared to those dogs who were mostly if not only run in Nstra.....and i know those aren't broke trials like the OP is asking about but it relates.

I would rather take a experienced trial dog hunting rather than a wild bird (phez) dog trialing......

[gonehuntin']

A good wild Pheasant dog will be doing things that will get you picked up in a trail, not that it can't be done but you have to realize the differences in hunting wild phez and running in a planted field trial and the expectations the judges have on how a dog should preform. Its not the same game at all.

I would rather take a experienced trial dog hunting rather than a wild bird (phez) dog trialing......

What birddog 1968 is saying here is that a good wild pheasant dog HAS to trail and relocate. If he doesn't, you aren't going to shoot many pheasant over him. That's a no-no in a trial.

[Winchey]

I don't do throw down trials so I don't know if it is a no no in those or not. But the dog is allowed to relocate on their own and track in a field trial, they just can't bump a bird and can't relocate on their own once you have already committed to flush.

[slistoe]

A good wild Pheasant dog will be doing things that will get you picked up in a trail, not that it can't be done but you have to realize the differences in hunting wild phez and running in a planted field trial and the expectations the judges have on how a dog should preform. Its not the same game at all.

I would rather take a experienced trial dog hunting rather than a wild bird (phez) dog trialing......

What birddog 1968 is saying here is that a good wild pheasant dog HAS to trail and relocate. If he doesn't, you aren't going to shoot many pheasant over him. That's a no-no in a trial.

And you KNOW this? How?
A good pheasant dog does not have to trail and relocate - they make birds stick. The majority of pheasant dogs never are capable of making birds stick so they annoy the folks that know what good dogs are capable of by making them follow them forever and ever as they point, trail, relocate, point, trail .....
Relocating is not a no-no in a trial - a good relocation (bold, decisive and productive) is to be rewarded. A dog that can't get its birds pointed will not get looked at favorably.

[Neil]

I don't do throw down trials so I don't know if it is a no no in those or not. But the dog is allowed to relocate on their own and track in a field trial, they just can't bump a bird and can't relocate on their own once you have already committed to flush.

Field trial dogs are expected to self-relocate before you move in front of them to flush, just like you say. We hold trials on pheasants and train the dogs to hit the birds hard to pin them. There is not much of the point, creep, point, ro only creep some more, allowed.

There is much to benefit from hunting a field trial dog, if controlled.

I won't agrue NSTTA, I don't spend 30 minutes in a 40 acre field when hunting or trialing and really don't know how to train for it, but there many here that do, NSTRA promotes their format is for hunters to sxpand theiyr season. So they must see the value.

[gonehuntin']

A good wild Pheasant dog will be doing things that will get you picked up in a trail, not that it can't be done but you have to realize the differences in hunting wild phez and running in a planted field trial and the expectations the judges have on how a dog should preform. Its not the same game at all.

I would rather take a experienced trial dog hunting rather than a wild bird (phez) dog trialing......

What birddog 1968 is saying here is that a good wild pheasant dog HAS to trail and relocate. If he doesn't, you aren't going to shoot many pheasant over him. That's a no-no in a trial.

And you KNOW this? How?

I know this HOW because I shoot a heck of a lot of pheasant every year and have never seen a dog that can "make pheasant stick" (wild pheasant) on a continual basis. A wild bird hears you coming through the tulies and he's gone.

[Neil]

I know this HOW because I shoot a heck of a lot of pheasant every year and have never seen a dog that can "make pheasant stick" (wild pheasant) on a continual basis. A wild bird hears you coming through the tulies and he's gone.

I think the key here is they are GONE if they hear YOU. Most times pheasants react differently to predators, mammalian and avian, they often freeze. Not always, but enough that a hard going fast dog will nail a limit or two, more in my experience than the point, creep, point method, of which I tire.

Both ways work, it is just field trial judges prefer the faster dogs, that even self- relocate with more speed. I, too, shoot a heck of a lot of pheasants. And then trial on them.

To be very clear, when the birds are bunched up in small areas with thick cover, I put the pointers up and hunt the flushers. Use the right tool.