The Spaniel Spot

nsea · Post by **nsea** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:36 pm

Today was the first real duck hunt with my Boykin, Watson in the marshes of upper coast Texas. He is 34 lbs at 7 months, stocky build, long body, short legs. We have been working with a mixture of wild rose methods and some traditional flushing training but mainly obedience.

I was reluctant to bring him this morning due to his lack of training and cold water but being the last day of the season and mild air temps I said what's the worst that can happen. In training he has been mouthy with freshly killed birds especially dove and teal and is not force fetched. He can be stubborn. But today he was a stud.

I had to cheat with his steadiness by keeping him on a check cord. I honestly can't blame him duck hunting can be slow when the pressure is on like it is down here. So after a slow first hour and a missed passing shot or two I dropped a single green wing at 25 yards and I sent him on the mark. The marshes of Tx are soft, boot sucking, sink to your knees mud bottom and the tide was out with only 6" of water on the flat. Watson sets out after the flapping teal with reckless abandonment, half bounding half swimming. When he gets to the bird he dispatches the hen with a quick shake of the head, returns to me and delivers to hand! As if he had done it a hundred times! I was astonished, proud does not describe the feeling.

Thirty minutes later I had a pair of gwt come in and I drop them both. Watson is back in action. He lost his mark on his way out but after wandering around and my senseless whistle blowing and hand signals he picks up the bird and returns, drops it at my feet this time, I'll take it. I refocus him and send him again. I'm not sure that he ever had the mark but he knew there was a dead bird somewhere but this one landed amongst the decoys making it a little more complicated. After him searching and mouthing a few decoys I cheat again and throw a rock I had in my pocket just for this reason in the vicinity of the bird. He scoops it up and returns. Not much to speak of after that besides his disappointment with my shooting and lack of birds.

Today will go down as an excellent end to a mediocre duck season.

nsea · Post by **nsea** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:40 pm

Watson's quarry.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:36 pm

Great post and pic! Love seeing those boykins. I would really love to see one in person (and hunting)

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:50 am

Paul French trailer for upcoming video on the UK National Cocker Champs 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOseTqb2 ... e=youtu.be

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:17 am

Everytime I see clips from the Cocker Championships I always wonder the same thing... How the heck do they get their dogs to sit still in their arms so calmly? My dog is insane and never stops moving EVER. They're always so calm in those videos.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:17 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Everytime I see clips from the Cocker Championships I always wonder the same thing... How the heck do they get their dogs to sit still in their arms so calmly? My dog is insane and never stops moving EVER. They're always so calm in those videos.

Is that all you ever wonder about? I would say the dogs have had a well balance upbringing and they no their "place"!.
It is not customary for Springer folks to carry their dog around like the Cocker folks do, But if we did, mine would be perfectly at ease with it, they know their "place". They have an "on-off" switch installed early in the rearing.
Pick your dog up every day and carry him 15ft, as day each comes increase the distance that you carry.

In this country it is quite well excepted that Cocker handlers in trial carry their dogs from the on deck position to the line and then back to the gallery after their run.
I know of no breed in trial where that takes place, it is a cultural thing!
I'm sure Polmaise and Trekmore could elaborate if they care to

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:07 am

gundogguy wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:Everytime I see clips from the Cocker Championships I always wonder the same thing... How the heck do they get their dogs to sit still in their arms so calmly? My dog is insane and never stops moving EVER. They're always so calm in those videos.
Is that all you ever wonder about?...

OK, gundogguy, since you asked: Cass also wonders, if the cocker in question's a natural retriever (and not force fetched), how come it doesn't run in and try to retrieve Paul French's microphone?

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:33 am

Hahahaha too funny MG. My guy has no issue being carried, he's like velcro and loves it if you actually pick him up. Its just that tail is going 1000 mph while he's in your arms lol. I have no worries about him knowing his place... still doesn't take the turbo charged engine out of him.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:29 am

crackerd wrote:
gundogguy wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:Everytime I see clips from the Cocker Championships I always wonder the same thing... How the heck do they get their dogs to sit still in their arms so calmly? My dog is insane and never stops moving EVER. They're always so calm in those videos.
Is that all you ever wonder about?...
OK, gundogguy, since you asked: Cass also wonders, if the cocker in question's a natural retriever (and not force fetched), how come it doesn't run in and try to retrieve Paul French's microphone?

MG

I'll wager that if Maurice tossed the microphone across the courtyard, that little dog would fetch it up on command. I would dare to say that the little dog has a 'trained retrieve'. Two of our Champs were never "forced'" in the traditional retriever fashion, yet they did have a trained retrieve and retrieve on command they did!
By the by the interviewer, ran his qualified springer in the Springer Champs.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:40 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Hahahaha too funny MG. My guy has no issue being carried, he's like velcro and loves it if you actually pick him up. Its just that tail is going 1000 mph while he's in your arms lol. I have no worries about him knowing his place... still doesn't take the turbo charged engine out of him.

Still waiting to see some good video of your "rocket ship"

Here is our little "dragster" doing a hunt dead. Nancy Jo at the "wheel"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gxdt9BheIo

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:55 am

Hal we've been getting hit hard with snow storm systems. We have over 3-4ft on the ground right now with more on the way so I haven't had him out with the camera. Only his head breaks the snow now, looks like he's swimming lol. Once some of it leaves (or go a few days without more coming down) I'll get out with it. The training group I was supposed to start training with is down till spring due to all the snow and ice. I'm going crazy (so is the dog). Can't wait to get out!

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:40 am

gundogguy wrote:
crackerd wrote:OK, gundogguy, since you asked: Cass also wonders, if the cocker in question's a natural retriever (and not force fetched), how come it doesn't run in and try to retrieve Paul French's microphone?
I'll wager that if Maurice tossed the microphone across the courtyard, that little dog would fetch it up on command. I would dare to say that the little dog has a 'trained retrieve'. Two of our Champs were never "forced'" in the traditional retriever fashion, yet they did have a trained retrieve and retrieve on command they did!
By the by the interviewer, ran his qualified springer in the Springer Champs.

Hah, just meant how "gamy" that furry microphone must have appeared to the dog - as a lead-in to how British spaniels are required to retrieve any and all game in their trials. Only wish we had same circumstances over here - for trials. For gunning, we do have same.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:01 am

Nice snow pics MG! Here's one of mine. Jake helping to build a snow fort with my daughter

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:06 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Here's one of mine. Jake helping to build a snow fort with my daughter

Cass, better be careful showing off Jake's versatility or your mush(-mouthed) buddy up north will be wanting to draft him for a sled dog team.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:09 am

LOL Don't get me started on that guy...

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:21 am

crackerd wrote:
gundogguy wrote:
crackerd wrote: as a lead-in to how British spaniels are required to retrieve any and all game in their trials. Only wish we had same circumstances over here - for trials.

MG

MG, that could be done here! when the Field trial committee of the a trial writes the premium notice for the trial, they could insert a paragraph in the "Birds and courses" section of the premium, " Pheasants and all other game legally in season will be used for judgement".

I can remember one time a dog producing a rabbit in trial here in the Mid East. One time in trial in Texas me dog produced a covey of quail, she was steady the guns did not shoot and we were instructed to carry on, as we should have been instructed. Contact with suitable numbers of varied game to judge dogs on would be a very slim indeed!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:03 pm

Very often in our spaniel trials one species of game is the main quarry and that bird is the pheasant (unless it is a rabbit only trial.) BUT ... if a rabbit , a hare, a partridge, a woodcock or a snipe happens to be there and is flushed and shot the dogs have to retrieve them with no extra commands or encouragement . As far as I am aware no British spaniel trialer uses F.F. to train for this..... we expect the dogs to be bred to want to do it and then give them the opportunities to retrieve just about any kind of game when we take them shooting or maybe picking-up. Quite often we begin with training retrieves using cold game of the species we want our dogs to retrieve.

I have been doing retrieves on fresh shot game for the last3-4 months with my 14 months old Brittany ( Yes I know it's not a spaniel but the idea is exactly the same.) So far she has retrieved pheasants both live and dead, partridges, woodcock (today was her first) and a couple of mallard ducks. She has retrieved about 30 pheasant runners this season and has swam over rivers to get to them . All of her experience has been gained while out picking-up for paying guns at large driven shoots. You lads are really missing out on something by not having much ,if any, opportunities to go picking-up. We get paid to do the job we love doing anyway and give our young dogs experience at the same time. The amount of pay isn't high.... I got paid £50 (not dollars) today which is a few quid higher than is usual . I am very happy with that wage , it covers my cars fuel and the dogs food with some cash still to spare.
The total bag today was 106 pheasants and 3 woodcock which isn't bad for the end of the shooting season. I had the Brittany with me and one of my cockers, a very experienced little monster of a dog but a very useful one.

Bill T.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:15 pm

gundogguy wrote:
In this country it is quite well excepted that Cocker handlers in trial carry their dogs from the on deck position to the line and then back to the gallery after their run.
I know of no breed in trial where that takes place, it is a cultural thing!
I'm sure Polmaise and Trekmore could elaborate if they care to

We don't usually carry our cockers around at trials, that , if it is done at all, is for the benefit of cuddly looking photographs probably at the request of the photographer. Our cockers are usually encrusted in mud, blood and bramble bits by the end of a shoot and aren't very nice to pick up and carry about. I have noticed more and more springer and cocker trailers putting coats on their dogs when not under the judges...... I even saw coats on some of the Labradors at this years Championships . That was unheard of and unthinkable 20-35 years back when I last trialed Labradors. If I'd done that then I'd have been laughed off the field !

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:00 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
I idea is exactly the same.) So far she We get paid to do the job we love doing anyway and give our young dogs experience at the same time. The amount of pay isn't high.... I got paid £50 (not dollars) today which is a few quid higher than is usual . I am very happy with that wage , it covers my cars fuel and the dogs food with some cash still to spare.

Bill T.

50 quid a little more than $80.00, by todays exchange that's about what I would get for running dogs for a foursome on a rough shoot.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:36 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:
I idea is exactly the same.) So far she We get paid to do the job we love doing anyway and give our young dogs experience at the same time. The amount of pay isn't high.... I got paid £50 (not dollars) today which is a few quid higher than is usual . I am very happy with that wage , it covers my cars fuel and the dogs food with some cash still to spare.

50 quid a little more than $80.00, by todays exchange that's about what I would get for running dogs for a foursome on a rough shoot.

That's a bargain for getting either of you, but I reckon Wild Bill (Trekmoor) also gets all the scrumpy he can keep down (or not) to go along with his daily crust. Only downside is his cocker has to carry him out of the pub.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:05 pm

gundogguy wrote: In this country it is quite well excepted that Cocker handlers in trial carry their dogs from the on deck position to the line and then back to the gallery after their run.
I know of no breed in trial where that takes place, it is a cultural thing!
I'm sure Polmaise and Trekmore could elaborate if they care to

Eddie Scott ,winner of last years Springer Championship ,done that very thing at this years championship every time he was called to the line! with one of the dogs he was running!..Must be something in it?..He was in the run-off for 1st/2nd ,and a bit of luck with the gun on his left He would have won it again?.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:44 pm

crackerd wrote:
gundogguy wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:
I idea is exactly the same.) So far she We get paid to do the job we love doing anyway and give our young dogs experience at the same time. The amount of pay isn't high.... I got paid £50 (not dollars) today which is a few quid higher than is usual . I am very happy with that wage , it covers my cars fuel and the dogs food with some cash still to spare.

50 quid a little more than $80.00, by todays exchange that's about what I would get for running dogs for a foursome on a rough shoot.
That's a bargain for getting either of you, but I reckon Wild Bill (Trekmoor) also gets all the scrumpy he can keep down (or not) to go along with his daily crust. Only downside is his cocker has to carry him out of the pub.

They could not carry me out of the Pub, but there times that they would have to drive the truck home!, thankgoodness they knew the way!!

MG

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:46 pm

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote: In this country it is quite well excepted that Cocker handlers in trial carry their dogs from the on deck position to the line and then back to the gallery after their run.
I know of no breed in trial where that takes place, it is a cultural thing!
I'm sure Polmaise and Trekmore could elaborate if they care to
He was in the run-off for 1st/2nd ,and a bit of luck with the gun on his left He would have won it again?.

Darn Guns...any way!

:roll:

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:09 pm

gundogguy wrote:

50 quid a little more than $80.00, by todays exchange that's about what I would get for running dogs for a foursome on a rough shoot.

About 25 years ago I was getting £90 per day plus tips for working my HPR's on the grouse moors . The lads with "real" or traditional pointers and setters were getting even more, the last time I heard it was £130 - £150 per day but they normally took 4-5 dogs with them and I only took two or three. Shooting party numbers varied between 1 and 4 with only two guns allowed to shoot over any one point. By comparison if you did beating or picking up back then you probably got about £15 per day ...... maybe less. Since then the wage for beating or picking up has more than doubled on most big shoots.

Bill T.

LAboykin · Post by **LAboykin** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:57 pm

nsea wrote:Watson's quarry.

Good looking pup... He's a little larger than my Boykin.. he just hit 8 months and may be 30 pounds soaking wet... he's pretty short and stocky... he was also the runt... very quick, and very strong legs... he's got hops like a Jack Russel haha...

Just started doing some more serious retrieval training with him... It's been hard becuase of work I'm typically gone before sunrise and back after sunset... looking forward to the summer

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:52 am

Trekmoor wrote:
gundogguy wrote:

50 quid a little more than $80.00, by todays exchange that's about what I would get for running dogs for a foursome on a rough shoot.
About 25 years ago I was getting £90 per day plus tips for working my HPR's on the grouse moors . The lads with "real" or traditional pointers and setters were getting even more, the last time I heard it was £130 - £150 per day but they normally took 4-5 dogs with them and I only took two or three. Shooting party numbers varied between 1 and 4 with only two guns allowed to shoot over any one point. By comparison if you did beating or picking up back then you probably got about £15 per day ...... maybe less. Since then the wage for beating or picking up has more than doubled on most big shoots.

Bill T.

Aye brings back memories of a time when I had a string of dogs, usually a dozen,Springers,Labs and Setters running 5-7 days week for hunters at shoots here in Michigan.
I would say over that 20year period I worked for over 4000 guns, Me dogs have put just few birds in the air

Hunt dogs all fall and winter retrain and fix'em all spring and summer,

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:25 pm

gundogguy wrote: Hunt dogs all fall and winter retrain and fix'em all spring and summer,

I know that feeling ever so well ! :roll:

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:50 am

Hall of fame Trial Open placements Grand Junction Tennessee
1st Mark Hairfield April
2nd Mike Wallace Kelli
3rd Mike Wallace Badger
4th Mike Wallace Cliff

Would any on have the Amateur winner and placements?

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:11 pm

The snow and cold has slowed us down but we're still working a bit. Here's Loki after a successful retrieving session.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:02 pm

FirearmFan wrote:The snow and cold has slowed us down but we're still working a bit. Here's Loki after a successful retrieving session.

FaF do not feel like the lone ranger. I'm in Michigan the next state to east of you. Downwind of the big Lake Michigan, we will break the century mark this season in snow fall 100+ inches. Heaviest in 25 years
we have close 30inches of snow on the level and our work is fairly any where we can plow a lane. I donot expect to resume field & bird work until Mid March..I hope!

Link to my pup 18 months old Zeta getting a little pile work and exercise she is out about 70 yards in this situation.
I use two cameras to catch the action. A Niko cool pix and a Contour Roam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG0Ot1hPlAA

ASC_Hunter · Post by **ASC_Hunter** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Hello all,

i just wanted to drop by the Spaniel Spot and say hi. I will be posting here a lot. I have not uploaded any pics of my pup but she is white and tan. Lizzie Belle (ASC) {my daughter named her} is fearless every since she has been 4 months old she has been romping in the woods. She has yet to connect on any quail/woodcock. I hope to change that on a hunt this weekend. I will let you know how it goes. My dog is fearless in cover which is good. Also, i do not mind the briars and sticks that get caught in the hair of her. I just brush them out, haha.

I do have two questions for now:

Why will a dog retrieve reliably in the woods but not in the backyard? This is what my dog does. She is reliable retrieving a bumper from the thickest cover in the woods, but in the yard she wants to run off. Any fix?

Also, my dog play growls when she gets close after the retrieve. I do not think she would ever bite me. I believe she thinks the bumper is hers and does not want to give it up per say. I can get her to drop it at my feet, just not sure if I should be concerned with the growling. what you guys thinks?

thanks,
ASC_Hunter

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:35 am

Was the pup trained to retrieve by F.F. methods or by "natural" retrieve train methods ? An F.F. trained dog should pick up and retrieve just about anything , anywhere. There shouldn't be much of a problem with the delivery either.

A " natural" trained retrieving dog might behave as yours does because the yard or garden bores it to tears while out in the woods and fields it enjoys the challenge of finding retrieves far more. I don't much like the "growling" part of the delivery but I'm not sure what I would do about it as none of my dogs have ever done that. I'd probably try the "fair exchange" way of delivery training, I'd offer the dog another retrieve item in exchange for the one it holds. I don't know if it would work though for I have never had to try it.

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:34 am

ASC_Hunter wrote:Hello all,

Why will a dog retrieve reliably in the woods but not in the backyard? This is what my dog does. She is reliable retrieving a bumper from the thickest cover in the woods, but in the yard she wants to run off. Any fix?

Also, my dog play growls when she gets close after the retrieve. I do not think she would ever bite me. I believe she thinks the bumper is hers and does not want to give it up per say. I can get her to drop it at my feet, just not sure if I should be concerned with the growling. what you guys thinks?

thanks,
ASC_Hunter

Trekmoor is right on! Inconsistency's in retrieving usually always indicate a problem in the basic training. Force fetch or trained retrieved would be your best bet in developing a reliable behavior of retrieving.
Thru the FF process I have also change some forms of aggression in some dogs.

Concerning the "play growling"! There is no such thing as "play growling"! It is growling and the beginning of some form of aggressive behavior, that you might not want your daughter or others to be a part of. That behavior should be dealt with quickly and firmly. I have seen it with some of the minor bred spaniels I have worked with over the years. Nip it! if not it can and will develop into behaviors that can only be dealt with by professionals$$$$$$$. Chance are you may already be in very deep water with this dog.
Please excuse me for coming on so strong but life of your dog is really at stake here! Donot be a pet owner in denial of what you dog is about.

ASC_Hunter · Post by **ASC_Hunter** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:51 am

thanks guys. No need to think you are being harsh. Tell me how it is. I am not sure how to fix the growls. I would lean more to it being posessive attitude. The only reason I say that is because it is only bumpers. She does not growl with any other toy/ball. So, how would you fix the growling? I plan to FF her soon. I have read that you should wait until after a year, your thoughts?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:46 am

ASC_Hunter wrote:thanks guys. No need to think you are being harsh. Tell me how it is. I am not sure how to fix the growls. I would lean more to it being posessive attitude. The only reason I say that is because it is only bumpers. She does not growl with any other toy/ball. So, how would you fix the growling? I plan to FF her soon. I have read that you should wait until after a year, your thoughts?

Temperament training is a job for a hands on Professional. I donot believe much help can come from forums when reading a dogs body language and attitude are so important. Concerning FF your reading the wrong manuals, you have a flushing dog and a retriever not a pointing dog, start ASAP. I usually start the process once adult teeth have come in and settled, 4 -5 months. It is project that will have many twists and turns, not an over night fix. During the FF sessions your dogs temperament will manifest it self, maybe ok maybe not, but it is a process that brings structure to the dogs life, and the handler's as well . You will learn a much by going down the FF road.

ASC_Hunter · Post by **ASC_Hunter** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:51 pm

Temperament training is a job for a hands on Professional. I donot believe much help can come from forums when reading a dogs body language and attitude are so important. Concerning FF your reading the wrong manuals, you have a flushing dog and a retriever not a pointing dog, start ASAP. I usually start the process once adult teeth have come in and settled, 4 -5 months. It is project that will have many twists and turns, not an over night fix. During the FF sessions your dogs temperament will manifest it self, maybe ok maybe not, but it is a process that brings structure to the dogs life, and the handler's as well . You will learn a much by going down the FF road.

Gundogguy,

THE RAMBLING OF A NEWBIE

I believe the issue is being corrected. Let me explain my failure at this early junction of my training career. When lizzie was a very young pup, we play retrieved a lot gearing up to the big day. (when I mean a lot 3 or 4 tosses every few hours). With other dogs (the inside lap pooch) i would toss a ball and TAKE IT from them. There in lies my failure. I did not really care if the dog growled or not as long as it never bit me. After consulting a few more experienced dog trainers in my area thru phone calls, we came to the conclusion as i expected:

1: My dog failed to see me as her secondary Lair.

2: I always REMOVED the bumper before she was ready to give it to me. Hence the possessive growling(which after listening more intently is more like a WHINE). This comes back to me not understanding the proper way to set up a retrieve.

My corrective actions so far have been to re-establish the FUN. I took her in the bathroom (no hallways in my house) locked her and my self inside, and played fetch with her coming back into my lap and LAVISHLY petting and loving on her. Allowing her to dictate when she dropped the bumper. The growling (moaning) has just about stopped. I can now go in the backyard a toss the bumper 10 yrds and she will bring it right back. Any further and she will run away but still bring it back. It of course is a working progress but finally the growling (moaning) is easing up. i have worked hard on this over the weekend. Oh, on the whining (growling) she has always wagged her tail and appears to be having fun. I think I am on the right track now. Thanks for making me take the time to look at my methods of training.

I am also taking the time to re-establish the "come" command which is another one that I failed at. It is not 100%, but a lot better. All other commands-sit(hup), stay, down, heel, get it, hunt on. work great. Working on the whistle hard now. I do not have hours and hours to train. I am also training my 3 year old daughter lol. I train a few hours during the week and more on the weekend.

I will begin FF training ASAP. I need the proper equipment first

thanks for your time,
ASC_Hunter

BTW- Took her out to a Louisiana WMA to let her run. We did not find any quail. She did jump some songbirds and had fun.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:09 pm

I agree with gundogguy on the FF. I did not plan on FF at all (after all, everything you read about cockers and springers is from the UK where FF is uncommon to say the least). I started FF with my boy when he was 6 months old and finished teething. It was a good learning experience for both of us (and on the whole quite a positive experience, I can only remember one session that was a bit tough on both of us). I may have been lucky though, my guy is a very soft tempered dog so it didn't take much pressure at all to achieve the desired result. However, the structure that comes from FF is so important in so many ways. It sets the foundation for all future training, and really builds on your relationship with your dog. If your pup has all its adult teeth I say there's no time like the present. You'll be glad you did it! If possible, try to find someone who can help you with the process in person - it helps tremendously.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:18 pm

goatkisser wrote:My Boykin SHR Seven Gables Swamp Navigator UN is 5 years old now. It's been a fun trip but way different than training a lab. He's great for what I do, a lot of dove hunting and duck hunting in swamps.He's also become a deadly little flush dog on WC (now that he's steady.) As far as effective, they are great for what they are.... they are not a lab or a Chesapeake and some of them don't have the coat or strength for continuous cold water.

That's the look my husband gives me when I've spent too much money.

ASC_Hunter · Post by **ASC_Hunter** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:38 pm

concerning the book I am reading:
HUP! 2nd edition by James Spencer. He says 15-24 months as "retrieving" is not the prime function, quartering is. But, most of my woods do not lend to quartering very well. i am teaching her quartering though. I will use James Spencer's method unless there are others that maybe better?

Also, I have all but eliminated the growling. I believe it was due to me rushing the "return" part of the retrieve. I have always taken the object from a house dog never made it give it too me. A lot of my dogs have acted similar to my cocker. I just never thought much of it. So, I started over and locked myself and my cocker in the bathroom and tossed the bumper and let her sit in my lap and give me the bumper when she chose too. It may have not been the best method but i got her understanding. Now she does not growl any more. I am glad I got over that hurdle. Now, i just got to get my coop built and get some pigeons.

ASC_Hunter

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:51 pm

Sharon wrote:
goatkisser wrote:My Boykin SHR Seven Gables Swamp Navigator UN is 5 years old now. It's been a fun trip but way different than training a lab. He's great for what I do, a lot of dove hunting and duck hunting in swamps.He's also become a deadly little flush dog on WC (now that he's steady.) As far as effective, they are great for what they are.... they are not a lab or a Chesapeake and some of them don't have the coat or strength for continuous cold water.

That's the look my husband gives me when I've spent too much money.

So, Sharon when you flex your economic might, hubby gets a little intense. Wow let's just hope he doesn't freeze like that>

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:34 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4JAE4csFh4

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:36 pm

ASC_Hunter wrote:concerning the book I am reading:
HUP! 2nd edition by James Spencer. He says 15-24 months as "retrieving" is not the prime function, quartering is. But, most of my woods do not lend to quartering very well.

What do you mean by this? Doesn't lend to quartering well? Cockers are bred to quarter in the thickest, nastiest of cover... I am confused by this statement?

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:16 pm

I guess, that as long as people don't breed force-fetched pups, forced-fetching is okay.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:22 am

For quite a long time I was under the misapprehension that a good number of American bred dogs were F.F.'d because they did not have much "natural retrieve" in them. Since this is simply not true I fail to understand the above post ?

Bill T.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:45 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:
ASC_Hunter wrote:concerning the book I am reading:
HUP! 2nd edition by James Spencer. He says 15-24 months as "retrieving" is not the prime function, quartering is. But, most of my woods do not lend to quartering very well.
What do you mean by this? Doesn't lend to quartering well? Cockers are bred to quarter in the thickest, nastiest of cover... I am confused by this statement?

I took this to mean that the trainer found it difficult to "quarter" as he trained the dog among some kinds of woodland cover ? What is easy for a dog to move among isn't always easy for a human ? I am thinking of young fir trees here or other kinds of thickly growing saplings . My cockers go through them like a dose of salts but I'd have to go through them on my hands and knees . When I was much younger and did a lot of beating on big shoots I did sometimes have to get down onto my hands and knees to follow my dog but I wasn't carrying a gun. Nowadays , if the woodlands are very thick and low to the ground I just send the cocker in and find an easier route through for myself but lose contact with the dog for periods of time unless I go "heavy on the whistle."

I think the answer to the question is to train for a shorter ranging hunt pattern among "easy" woodlands and then to insist upon that same hunting range when in thicker cover.

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:21 pm

polmaise wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4JAE4csFh4

Polmaise, your video offering is locked Could not view! Is there a password needed?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:39 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
ASC_Hunter wrote:concerning the book I am reading:
HUP! 2nd edition by James Spencer. He says 15-24 months as "retrieving" is not the prime function, quartering is. But, most of my woods do not lend to quartering very well.
What do you mean by this? Doesn't lend to quartering well? Cockers are bred to quarter in the thickest, nastiest of cover... I am confused by this statement?

Understand that Spencer is a Non-slip retriever trainer, that bought a spaniel and then went and qualified the dog in the Flushing dog hunt test program.
Jim is fine guy that really is trying to help folks. I spent a weekend with Spence about 20 yrs. ago, training dogs

Quartering can be define in many ways and you are correct that Cockers and Springers have intuitive instincts to run in very heavy cover, however they might not always be "quartering in it's truest definition" when they find themselves in the thickest nastiest of cover. Dogs that might sweep 25-30 yards either side of a gun or handler in open prairie, here in North America , might only jig and jog 5yards in cover that can not be walked through by man or beast.

One time in Ohio gunning a trial that was judged by Paul McGagh and My wife, Paul and I found ourselves on our hands and knees following a little dog through a thicket and I was crawling with a gun, the dog was literally running in front of us 10-12 feet, after about 45 yards we made it to a clearing, stood up, dog produce a bird, shot was taken, retrieve was made. After which the dog was to instructed to carry on!

As far as the upland part of your journey many things that you have read about will start making more sense once you start training with fellow spanielers in your providence.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:44 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Quartering can be define in many ways and you are correct that Cockers and Springers have intuitive instincts to run in very heavy cover, however they might not always be "quartering in it's truest definition" when they find themselves in the thickest nastiest of cover. Dogs that might sweep 25-30 yards either side of a gun or handler in open prairie, here in North America , might only jig and jog 5yards in cover that can not be walked through by man or beast.

One time in Ohio gunning a trial that was judged by Paul McGagh and My wife, Paul and I found ourselves on our hands and knees following a little dog through a thicket and I was crawling with a gun, the dog was literally running in front of us 10-12 feet, after about 45 yards we made it to a clearing, stood up, dog produce a bird, shot was taken, retrieve was made. After which the dog was to instructed to carry on!

As far as the upland part of your journey many things that you have read about will start making more sense once you start training with fellow spanielers in your providence.

That sounds about right.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:45 pm

polmaise wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4JAE4csFh4

Ok Polmaise that is the absolutely the WORST video I have NEVER seen. Or maybe it is absolutely the BEST video have NEVER seen!

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:41 pm

gundogguy wrote:
polmaise wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4JAE4csFh4
Ok Polmaise that is the absolutely the WORST video I have NEVER seen. Or maybe it is absolutely the BEST video have NEVER seen!

I was a bit 'premature' ! For legal reasons can't show it until Friday. But I would like your honest opinion when you do see it