The Spaniel Spot

[crackerd]

Cover that high is a bit of a nightmare for everyone. The handlers cannot see the dogs and neither can the judges. A very experienced field trialing lady was competing in the first spaniel trial I ever saw. Her bitch was given a hunt through waist high, very densely growing kale. Her dog found nothing but was kept in the trial. I asked the lady how she knew where her dog was in the kale in order to handle it. She told me she hadn't seen her dog during her entire run so she'd just whistled and wiggled her arms about occasionally to make things look good to the judges ! When her dog did appear just in front of her as the kale field ended she behaved as if she'd known the dog's whereabouts the whole time.

Couldn't agree more, Bill - actually, I could agree more, because you left out the difficulty for FT spaniels in marking a fall (and subsequent retrieve) on account of competing in head-high cover. Sometimes such ground is all you've got to work with - but that's when the mowers need to come out and bring the cover down to waist-high or lower.

A little side note: We almost never such such cover for retriever trials - as it's patently unfair for (some of) the dogs in the smaller picture and unfair for all of them in bigger picture. Since retrievers all run the same marks and blinds in a field trial series, the early runners would have to knock down the cover in getting to their birds, while those that ran later - say after about the 15th or 20th dog in the trial - would have a "freeway" laid through the cover for finding their birds thanks to the earlier runners.

When we are against such cover as a last resort in a retriever trial, the creative ways the judges come up with to make for a "level playing field" would amuse you. Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery would certainly be proud.

Haven't been on here for a while, but I'd be remiss in not extending a belated congratulations to Mr. Tim Baker, a/k/a springerdude, on achieving his AFC - great job, Tim, you earned it and what a commitment it takes to get there in the first place. Likewise hurrahs to gundogguy and his latest accomplishment with Zeta in a long line of them.

MG

[welsh]

Couldn't agree more, Bill - actually, I could agree more, because you left out the difficulty for FT spaniels in marking a fall (and subsequent retrieve) on account of competing in head-high cover.

This is when handling is essential: so that the judge, who couldn't see a thing, can advise the handler, who likewise saw doodlysquat, where to send his dog, who saw nothing but weeds. The dog has to guess what hand signals the handler is using, but can do anything he likes, because the judge can't see anyway. Eventually the dog finds a bird which has died of laughter, and returns triumphantly.

It's the ever-challenging triple blind retrieve.

Congrats to gundogguy & Zeta.

Now, on the topic of handling on blind retrieves, I've developed a vexatious problem which has me somewhat stymied. The dog has decided that a left or right over indicates she should run back towards me and aim for a spot to my left or right someplace. She is fine on a memory but on a blind she decides I am pointing to my side & that's where she should go. This is frustrating, because she was fine on this last year but has now arrived at a novel reinterpretation of the command. She sees herself as an innovator, I guess. All I can think of to correct this is to do lots and lots of memories to drill it into her little skull & then start over with short blinds into the wind ... any other suggestions welcome.

[crackerd]

Now, on the topic of handling on blind retrieves, I've developed a vexatious problem which has me somewhat stymied. The dog has decided that a left or right over indicates she should run back towards me and aim for a spot to my left or right someplace. She is fine on a memory but on a blind she decides I am pointing to my side & that's where she should go. This is frustrating, because she was fine on this last year but has now arrived at a novel reinterpretation of the command. She sees herself as an innovator, I guess. All I can think of to correct this is to do lots and lots of memories to drill it into her little skull & then start over with short blinds into the wind ... any other suggestions welcome.

Welsh, some of our British besties have been trying to get at a similar problem. Alas, they like things real simple over there, so when I suggested three-handed casting, they couldn't help but harrumph at how complicated such a drill might be - especially for an 8-10 month old puppy! Hah, one of them even compared it to being taught trigonometry before "sums" - I knew right then that he wasn't in Mr. Molesley's advanced class in Downton...

Anyhow, three-handed casting would get you through this dilemma in no time - with a caveat that you sit the dog 15-20 yards in front of you, and facing you, put out three dummies (bumpers) at 9 - 12 - 3 o'clock, then walk back that same distance away from the dog, and make your casts from that vantage (at a remove from the dog).

Also: Always have the two "over" cast bumpers even in line with where the dog's sitting, so she can make visual contact with them as soon as she takes your cast.

After succeeding with three-handed casting, you may want to continue on to the T-drill for further ingraining of the over cast.

I promise that ain't terribly complicated, either (certainly not by 'Merican or Canadian standards )

MG

[welsh]

Thanks. I've been doing three-handed casting already (I think of it as a memory retrieve drill). I'll just continue down this road & be patient, I guess.

[Trekmoor]

Hi Welsh, it could easily be that I'm getting confused between American terminology and British terminology but I wouldn't call three handed casting a memory retrieve ?

I do as Crackerd said in his post and have done for nearly 50 years but I didn't know it was called "three handed casting" until very recently . It sounded very complicated when I first read this expression and I decided not to try it coz I ain't got three hands !

??????????? If Crackerd's explanation is three handed casting then what is the "three card trick ?"

Bill T.

[welsh]

Hi Welsh, it could easily be that I'm getting confused between American terminology and British terminology but I wouldn't call three handed casting a memory retrieve ?

Purely in my mental classification system where if you throw the dummy, it's a mark; if the dog knows where the dummy is, it's a memory; and if it's a blind then it's a blind.

Not properly a memory per se but in the territory between a mark and a blind. I'm often pretty imprecise on what to call these things. Here I was doing it and not calling it three-handed casting, either!

[polmaise]

Comes 'complicated ' ?....depending if you are a novice to it , or an 'armchair expert' at it ?.
No hands 'stop' with a flusher .. Many actually ..inadvertently as by natural behaviour of human (if they are right handed) raise the right hand when they 'stop' the dog !? when the dog actually is not looking at them ?...what's that all about ?....In that cover .

[welsh]

Many actually ..inadvertently as by natural behaviour of human (if they are right handed) raise the right hand when they 'stop' the dog !? when the dog actually is not looking at them ?...what's that all about ?....In that cover .

It's a sign the handler's training is going well.

At this point, the dog has successfully trained the handler to raise his right hand at the stop whistle regardless of the situation. The handler is now halfway steady.

[crackerd]

Many actually ..inadvertently as by natural behaviour of human (if they are right handed) raise the right hand when they 'stop' the dog !? when the dog actually is not looking at them ?...what's that all about ?....In that cover .

It's a sign the handler's training is going well.

At this point, the dog has successfully trained the handler to raise his right hand at the stop whistle regardless of the situation. The handler is now halfway steady.

"Handler's training going well" - bravo, Welsh, your saracasm is doggone splendiferous.

I would have Robert know (believe we've conferred on this before) that the extended arm concurrent with the stop whistle is also an MO in our HPR training, namely in NAVHDA training. Really cuts the legs out from under you - er, cuts off the arms from above you - if you also want to use an extended arm for giving a back command, as is uniformly done with our retrievers. And with retrieving gundogs eligible to run AKC retriever tests over here such as the German HPRs, Boykins, WPGs, et al.

So back to you, Robt. - is the raised arm for stopping a dog commonplace accompaniment with the whistle in your trials (or tests) in the UK? (Again, thinking we may have discussed this before, perhaps even with Wullie, but age is a taunting muse for memory.)

MG

[polmaise]

So back to you, Robt. - is the raised arm for stopping a dog commonplace accompaniment with the whistle in your trials (or tests) in the UK? (Again, thinking we may have discussed this before, perhaps even with Wullie, but age is a taunting muse for memory.)

MG

I was pontificating over a beer with an Irish dog trainer staying over for a few days .
I asked why he raised his right hand as he blew the stop whistle when the dog would not see it until it turned round. His reply was '' So that I can then give it further direction''. 'So what do you do if the dog requires a L/H Back I asked?' He just smiled .

That ,and having a bit of banter between friends

(the converse if I remember with Wullie may have been to do with those 'blasted' Casey Jones whistlesthat the HPR folk use when the acme obviously hasn't stopped the dog ?..so lets give it a reminder that I really wanted you to stop )

[Trekmoor]

Really thick, high cover is difficult to work a dog in. I can't see the dog, the dog can't see me and since blowing the stop whistle is often done just prior to sending a dog off in a new direction it is pointless to even blow the stop whistle never mind raise my arm. I either wait until the dog moves into a clear space where I can see it before trying to handle or I recall the dog to where I can see it and handle from there.

I did know one retriever trial man who attempted (with mixed success) to train his bitch using a shepherds mouth whistle. She was trained (he said) to go further out, left or right etc. to various whistle notes using no arm signals. He gave in on that idea after just one field trial during which the judges said he sounded like the bleeping dawn chorus !

Bill T.

[Trekmoor]

(the converse if I remember with Wullie may have been to do with those 'blasted' Casey Jones whistlesthat the HPR folk use when the acme obviously hasn't stopped the dog ?..so lets give it a reminder that I really wanted you to stop )[/quote]

I know numerous HPR and pointer/setter folk who use a whistle like an ACME 211 1/2 plus an ACME Thunderer. I was at a training seminar for these breeds about 12 years ago during which I was one of the panel of three "experts" ( I hate hearing that word.) I soon discovered I was the only person in the hall, including the other two experts, who only used one whistle and did not have a Thunderer or something similar.

I argued my point. I said that if one whistle meant stop and the Thunderer whistle meant "stop or else" then the dogs were more likely to wait until they'd heard that second whistle before they stopped. I felt these people were actually training their dogs to ignore the first whistle used.

Nowadays, when hunting my Brittany, I often do have a second whistle but it has the same tone as the less noisy one and it is a more constant tone. I use the quieter whistle close in or on days with little wind but it's sound fades a bit at long range in windy conditions . The other whistle , an Acme 212, carries better at long range especially if it is very windy. I have never found any need for the louder whistle with spaniels , at spaniel working distances either a dog handles to the 211 1/2 or it does not.

Bill T.

[Sharon]

Hal, you're going to have to give us more to go on than that. Where's our recap of the event?

Ok cass here is the recap
Zeta found,em flush,em mark,em retrieve,em better than any of the other dogs entered on Saturday in Valley Forge Pa. And the judges panel made her thier best dog in trial.couple of videos in my signature for any one that wants see FC Zeta run as a young AA trial prospect. Sorry no trial video cover in PA 5,6 feet tall really tough stuff real Spaniel cover.

Enjoyed those videos. Thanks.

[CDN_Cocker]

I do raise my hand (although if only one its generally my left not right, and yes I am right handed) but I do not fully extend it. I am getting it into position to cast the dog either back or over. If I am just stopping the dog (maybe to catch up as I've slowed to look at something) I don't raise my hand. Likewise if I'm stopping to throw a retrieve I also don't. Only if anticipating a cast. Now, having a cocker there are times when he will try to take a couple extra steps towards me if I stop him on his way back in to me. In that case I will raise my hand to enforce my need for him to stop where he is.

[gundogguy]

The " THE OVER Command " In trial here in the states usually suggests, over and back to the truck and car park!!..

[polmaise]

Now, having a cocker there are times when he will try to take a couple extra steps towards me if I stop him on his way back in to me. In that case I will raise my hand to enforce my need for him to stop where he is.

And 'Over here' your time is Over ,usually preceded with 'Hand your 'arm' band in at the desk'.

[welsh]

Odd. I thunk a well-trained dog ought to handle. Now I'm being told a dog that handles is bad?

[crackerd]

The " THE OVER Command " In trial here in the states usually suggests, over and back to the truck and car park!!..

Now, having a cocker there are times when he will try to take a couple extra steps towards me if I stop him on his way back in to me. In that case I will raise my hand to enforce my need for him to stop where he is.

And 'Over here' your time is Over ,usually preceded with 'Hand your 'arm' band in at the desk'.

Odd. I thunk a well-trained dog ought to handle. Now I'm being told a dog that handles is bad?

Not what to extrapolate, welsh - Robt. and gundogguy are saying that if the dog gets far enough off-line going for a mark (if you allow the dog to get far enough off-line) in a trial that you have to give "Over!" casts, your goose is cooked competitively. (i.e., "'Over here' your time is Over." i.e. +1 retriever maxim: "(It's) over and back to the truck and car park!!...)

MG

[welsh]

True enough. In trials around here, a genuine blind retrieve is about as common as a piebald unicorn anyway.

But I would think blind retrieves are more common in UK trials where the cover is much more varied.

[Trekmoor]

? is the cover much more varied in Britain ? Dogs may have to hunt woodlands and may have to hunt "rashes" and may have to hunt heather, root crops or gamecrops here. Some of these types of cover will need hunted during the same trial by the same dogs. "Real" blind retrieves aren't all that common during spaniel trials though as most of the birds will have been flushed by the dog that is sent for the bird. They are usually marked retrieves of varying degrees of difficulty due to the distance of the fall and the intervening cover or obstacles.

In our spaniel trials, even in our Championships , most birds fall very close the dogs. I don't go to spaniel trials here to watch the retrieving !

Is there little or no variation in the cover types encountered during most trials in America ? You also have woods, root fields etc. so you must encounter things like brambles and gorse and fallen trees too ? Or are woodlands never used in spaniel trials in America ?

Bill T.

[polmaise]

I beg to differ with my countryman ,without provocation the majority of retrieves in a UK spaniel trial are blinds,especially the numerous rabbit trials we have.
The game bird trials on partridge,the cover dictates where the contact flush begins and more often than not the dog that flushes is stopped and does not see the fall.
The same would be with the many trials on sugar beet with pheasants. It is true however the game is shot not very far from the guns.

[crackerd]

Is there little or no variation in the cover types encountered during most trials in America ? You also have woods, root fields etc. so you must encounter things like brambles and gorse and fallen trees too ? Or are woodlands never used in spaniel trials in America ?

Bill, pretty sure gundogguy will have a definitive answer for you - the only "woods" I've ever run a "trial" in was a "fun grouse trial" on planted birds held each year in Pa. by a spaniel club I used to belong to. (Tons of fun, especially if that's the only trial your particular spaniel breeds are allowed into.) But get ready for an encyclopedic response for gundogguy on variations in cover (and country terrain).

MG

[welsh]

It's not that the cover is more varied in general, it's that the terrain used for trials is more varied. Can't speak to America in general, but in my local area trials are run over open terrain, usually in knee to waist-high cover. Thus my remark re blinds: the dog can always mark the line of flight and a true blind (where the dog has no clue where the bird went) is going to be rare.

I know that some US cocker trials are held in woodlands.

Rabbits? What are rabbits?

[gundogguy]

Not what to extrapolate, welsh - Robt. and gundogguy are saying that if the dog gets far enough off-line going for a mark (if you allow the dog to get far enough off-line) in a trial that you have to give "Over!" casts, your goose is cooked competitively. (i.e., "'Over here' your time is Over." i.e. +1 retriever maxim: "(It's) over and back to the truck and



Exactly. Nothing bad about handling or having a Sprnger that can handle, but having the skill and behavior that will very seldom save your bacon.. If rabbits were apart of our trials it would be very neccesary.
In Cocker trials i see way to many dogs being handle on retrieves.
That is not very appealing to me.

[Trekmoor]

I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here. I said

"Real" blind retrieves aren't all that common during spaniel trials though as most of the birds will have been flushed by the dog that is sent for the bird.

Bill T.

The dogs may not have seen the actual fall of a bird but they do know the direction the bird they just flushed flew off in. Most of these birds will have fallen within 15 -30 yards from the dog so the dog just follows the "line" of the bird through the air until it encounters it. I do not think of this as being a "Real" blind retrieve. It's a bit like a lab that sees a pricked pheasant for a couple of seconds through the trees as the bird glides in to land somewhere out in a wood. The dog, with experience, will extrapolate (if that is the right word) where or how far out the bird will actually fall and will usually find it with no help at all if it is sent for it.
I've often heard that described as a blind retrieve but although it is clever work on the dogs part it does not qualify as being a blind retrieve for me.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Rabbits? What are rabbits?

Leveller's . They let you know how good your dog is ,or not . ..ps. and your stop whistle ,hand raised or not

[CDN_Cocker]

Awful lot of stuff here that I must be daft about. I do not see why handling would be an indication to pick your dog up. I was only talking about handling on blinds. A mark is a mark, no need to handle on that.

[gundogguy]

And the hits just keep coming
Zeta girl takes a 2nd in Good Friday day trial in P.A.
Her 2nd placement in the last 7days.

[polmaise]

And the hits just keep coming
Zeta girl takes a 2nd in Good Friday day trial in P.A.
Her 2nd placement in the last 7days.

Good news! ..Who was first ?

[gundogguy]

1st went to very nice dog named Sappire owned by B. Montler

[polmaise]

1st went to very nice dog named Sappire owned by B. Montler

Was it out of wild wind kennels ?, Who handled it ? .thanks .

[chrokeva]

And the hits just keep coming
Zeta girl takes a 2nd in Good Friday day trial in P.A.
Her 2nd placement in the last 7days.

Wow Zeta is on fire. Congrats!!

[gundogguy]

1st went to very nice dog named Sapphire owned by B. Montler

Was it out of wild wind kennels ?, Who handled it ? .thanks .

Jim Keller Wildwind Kennels. handled, not sure of the breeding.

Zeta and Sapphire have gone head to head the last two weekend trials. They have flipped placements Zeta won Sapphire took 2nd, the next trial Sapphire won Zeta took 2nd. Not clear whether they run against each other in the next Eastern Circuit trial. Should be fun for all those involved.

[kweeksdraw]

I was having a talk with one of my dog training mentors this past week end, the subject was of judging as we have seen done, verses the standard for Cockers.
There's a phrase in political speak these days, "legislating from the bench", meaning of course changing or creating law from the power of the bench.
My stand is that when judges favor the very strong flush over the normal flush, so much so that a dog with a 'soft' flush hasn't the proverbial snowballs chance of doing well at trial, they are essentially changing the standard.
My buddy's stand is that things are supposed to change, perfect, evolve. An argument that makes sense.
Don't get me wrong, I like to see a strong flush, but I could buy a Springer and see it all the time. And if those who judge really like Springers so much, maybe instead of re-configuring the Cocker...
Am I the guy arguing against colorizing old movies?

[gundogguy]

compilation of a Open All-age dog Fc Salmy's Legend of Zorro Zeta

The first 8 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3_WQch4Gk

8- 15 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpa80ThlbNg

[crackerd]

Looks like somebody named "spanielguy" has made a big hit with them videos on another site where a gundog training topic is usually anathema - as in having a near-fatal allergy against practicing it...

compilation of a Open All-age dog Fc Salmy's Legend of Zorro Zeta

The first 8 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3_WQch4Gk

8- 15 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpa80ThlbNg

[gundogguy]

[quote="crackerd"]Looks like somebody named "spanielguy" has made a big hit with them videos on another site where a gundog training topic is usually anathema - as in having a near-fatal allergy against practicing it...

[quote="gundogguy"]compilation of a Open All-age dog Fc Salmy's Legend of Zorro Zeta

Crackerd your right about that. The spaniel and retriever folks would recognize that gun dog training is more than just letting the wild birds train the dog.

[polmaise]

compilation of a Open All-age dog Fc Salmy's Legend of Zorro Zeta

The first 8 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3_WQch4Gk

8- 15 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpa80ThlbNg

Enjoyed watching the clips 'gundogguy' .
It's interesting also some comments here and elsewhere regarding the stages of training a young dog (spaniel) .
A good trainer knows the final picture that they want to achieve and a poor one want's to paint it in one go!

Training them' as I seen in the clips was actually just showing them what to do without asking the 'complete package'.
as a ps. some of the process used in the clip is 'verboten' this side of the pond so we have to be more imaginative .

Nice, thanks for sharing .
Robert.

[Trekmoor]

I agree with Robert, very enjoyable film clips..... and she "cannae half go !" It is maybe unfortunate but working in that way here with live pigeons would soon see you supping porridge in Barlinnie Prison. :roll:

I'd like to ask if you clip Zeta ? She seems to have almost no featherings at all ?

I've got my springer pup's first test coming up on Sunday. I think he'll do O.K. in the puppy but I will maybe run him in the Novice too just to pass the time. I get very bored very quickly as a spectator so I will probably give him a try at Novice even though I haven't even begun to teach him blind retrieves yet. I'll just withdraw him if he is given a blind of any distance or degree of difficulty.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Is the test at 'Lothian & Borders ' .near West Linton Bill ?.
If so say Hi' to some mutual friends .
Good luck anyway. .....
A puppy 1st would be a walk in the park. ...A novice First would be an Open dog the following day

[Trekmoor]

Yes , it's the L+B tests at Slipperfield. I competed there a few years back and the ground used then was mainly "rashes" for the spaniels......the stuff I call spikegrass. Been trying to get the pup a rabbit find or two among rashes locally.......there's plenty of rashes but no rabbits ! :roll: I think he's starting to go stale hunting for nothing so I will "tennis ball lane" him tomorrow but only for about 40 yards and stop at that .

Been told to get there about an hour before anyone else on Sunday to give me time to walk out to the start of the hunt area ......cheeky sods !
There is no chance at all of Edge winning Novice unless the other dogs are all complete numpties ! He'll hunt O.K. and will probably be O.K. with marked retrieves from land or water but he has no idea yet about blinds. His steadiness might be O.K. or it might not be. I do almost all my training alone and he may choose to run-in with someone else firing shots and throwing dummies around as another dog is sent for the dummies.

What will happen, will happen. I do my training and my worrying before tests and just take what comes while enjoying the company on actual test days.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Yes , it's the L+B tests at Slipperfield. I competed there a few years back and the ground used then was mainly "rashes" for the spaniels......the stuff I call spikegrass.
What will happen, will happen. I do my training and my worrying before tests and just take what comes while enjoying the company on actual test days.

Bill T.

Training day and experience for the pup .

[Trekmoor]

That's about the size of it Robert. It will be a new experience for him and it will let me see how he and I do when someone else is deciding what is good work and what is not. I've only been in two spaniel puppy tests in my life. I won both of them but that's not saying much because the first one of the two only had two pups competing in it !

Bill T.

[CDN_Cocker]

I was having a talk with one of my dog training mentors this past week end, the subject was of judging as we have seen done, verses the standard for Cockers.
There's a phrase in political speak these days, "legislating from the bench", meaning of course changing or creating law from the power of the bench.
My stand is that when judges favor the very strong flush over the normal flush, so much so that a dog with a 'soft' flush hasn't the proverbial snowballs chance of doing well at trial, they are essentially changing the standard.
My buddy's stand is that things are supposed to change, perfect, evolve. An argument that makes sense.
Don't get me wrong, I like to see a strong flush, but I could buy a Springer and see it all the time. And if those who judge really like Springers so much, maybe instead of re-configuring the Cocker...
Am I the guy arguing against colorizing old movies?

I'm a bit surprised no one has commented on this

[Trekmoor]

It is human nature to have fads and fancies sometimes out of all proportion to what common sense dictates. More than a century ago the guide to field trial judges booklet in Britain held these words for spaniel trial judges. "Pointing should be considered an added excellence." The words are, I'm told, still in the advice booklet but nobody ever bothers about it !
If a spaniel pointed during a trial here now it would probably "not be asked back in."

The other end of the scale is the American "hard flush." Some of these I've seen on film would probably be considered unsteady flushes here and you would suffer the consequences.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

I was having a talk with one of my dog training mentors this past week end, the subject was of judging as we have seen done, verses the standard for Cockers.
There's a phrase in political speak these days, "legislating from the bench", meaning of course changing or creating law from the power of the bench.
My stand is that when judges favor the very strong flush over the normal flush, so much so that a dog with a 'soft' flush hasn't the proverbial snowballs chance of doing well at trial, they are essentially changing the standard.
My buddy's stand is that things are supposed to change, perfect, evolve. An argument that makes sense.
Don't get me wrong, I like to see a strong flush, but I could buy a Springer and see it all the time. And if those who judge really like Springers so much, maybe instead of re-configuring the Cocker...
Am I the guy arguing against colorizing old movies?

I'm a bit surprised no one has commented on this

Not being a FB Cocker owner, though having gunned over the lil dogs in trial for some 10 years here in the Mid west, my photo avatar is from a Cocker Trial.
I was really should reserve comment until Cocker owners step up concerning standards of judgement for their breed in trial.
As springer devotee I do enjoy a bold flush all the time.

As a side note Zeta will be off for a period of time she is in season! Should be ready for Canada in May.

[CDN_Cocker]

I don't have the experience to comment. I have also never been to a cocker only trial as our's are all mixed up here.

[polmaise]

I was having a talk with one of my dog training mentors this past week end, the subject was of judging as we have seen done, verses the standard for Cockers.
There's a phrase in political speak these days, "legislating from the bench", meaning of course changing or creating law from the power of the bench.
My stand is that when judges favor the very strong flush over the normal flush, so much so that a dog with a 'soft' flush hasn't the proverbial snowballs chance of doing well at trial, they are essentially changing the standard.
My buddy's stand is that things are supposed to change, perfect, evolve. An argument that makes sense.
Don't get me wrong, I like to see a strong flush, but I could buy a Springer and see it all the time. And if those who judge really like Springers so much, maybe instead of re-configuring the Cocker...
Am I the guy arguing against colorizing old movies?

Depends on what ones interpretation of a 1) Vey strong Flush 2)Normal Flush and 3) Soft flush.
You can't change a standard without changing the 'standard specified' in the big book ,any judge should be judging to that standard or not at all.
Fortunately over this side we do have Cocker Judges judging Cocker trials.
We also have 'AV' all variety spaniel trials and there will be either all cocker judges or all Springer or a mix , ..ya take yer chance or your preference in them ,but either way ,the cream of either breeds will rise to the top on the day.

[chrokeva]

Being new to both trialing and cockers I am hesitant to give my opinion but I will give it a try. Being that most cocker trials out here are judged by springer people it would not surprise me that a strong flush would be put up over a soft flush with all other things being equal. To me the other side of that is a dog with a very strong flush seems to trap birds more often and although not counted against you in a trial I do not believe that say a 3rd series of all traps will get you too far? I also think that here in the states where we are using pen raised birds a stronger flush may be required over places where wild birds are used? The reality is I do not want a cocker that runs like a springer but not having the cocker numbers in my area I look to the springers for training advice and then try to remind myself to let her be a cocker. Just a few of my thoughts.
Jackie

[welsh]

You can't change a standard without changing the 'standard specified' in the big book ,any judge should be judging to that standard or not at all.

With respect, this is self-evidently untrue.

Field trial judging uses both objective and subjective criteria. The objective criteria are eliminating faults: either a dog runs in, or it does not. But the criteria for winning, and for placing, are entirely subjective. At this level, all the dogs pass the objective standard, and who wins depends largely on less tangible criteria, on flash and style and on the judges' subjective interpretations of how the dogs have used the wind and so forth. Nothing in the rules defines these criteria. They are cultural standards -- that is, they are passed on from one generation of trialers and judges to the next based on consensus ideas of what makes a great dog.

And like any cultural standards, ours continually change. I've recently encountered that phrase, "pointing is an added refinement," though I can'f for the life of me remember where; the rules now specifically state the opposite, that pointing shall be penalized. This is one of the best examples of how standards drift over the years. It also provides us a concrete example of the subjectivity of the rules:

The word ‘flushing game boldly and without urging’ were included to clarify the problem of the ‘pointing spaniel’. Unless care is taken in training with planted birds a spaniel can form the habit of hesitating on game, which is only one step from ‘blinking’, hence undesirable and to be discouraged. Were all training carried out on wild birds and all trials run on game roaming the fields at will, as in the earlier days, this problem would seldom arise. The only caution to the judge is that he should recognize the poor scent given out by a deeply planted bird that has not moved and the difficulty of quickly locating it and hence make allowances as his judgment dictates. The brief pause when a dog that has located a bird by nose attempts to verify its position in order to pick it up or force it into the air cannot be described as pointing, but such hesitation should not be prolonged.

The subjectivity of this rule is painfully obvious. How long is a "brief" pause, and at what point does it become "prolonged?" No written standard exists. Only the judge can say, and the only real criteria he can use in making that judgment are general ideas of a "proper" flush.

I'm not in a position to say what a proper flush should look like for a cocker, having limited cocker experience. But I think the general complaint is valid: the springer has been the standard for so long that all our ideas of what is proper are based on springers. Minor breeds are judged in large part not on their ability to hunt efficiently and effectively, but on whether or not they hunt like springers. And the tendency I see is to demand that cockers hunt like springers: when people tell me "they're getting better and better," they mean, "they're more and more like springers."