The Spaniel Spot

[gundogguy]

She's going from strength to strength, well done.

Bill T.

Bill I think you are wee bit prophetic Zeta is really building some momentum!

Tearing it up, for sure, gundogguy - congratulations. Question: Will you keep campaigning Zeta for years to come given she's still rather young but already CFC/FC (and acquiring all-age points like a machine), or will you give her another year or two on the circuit aiming at a national championship? I know how it's done with retrievers that become FC but it's also worth noting that dogs in all-age retriever FTs is about 71/2 years old.

MG

MG, Zeta girl still has one more weekend in Ontario May 21 and 22. The short term is a summer break and then get back into some kind of shape to run in the Amateur all-age this coming autumn. That schedule will not be as intense as the last 18 months have been. As for National Champs will take them as they come with depending on the location and the travel that might entail. Qualifications of course would also be a requirement. Now those would be my thoughts, the Dept of War and Secretary of the Interior, Zeta's mistress, Nancy, may have a completely different plan and every thing I might think would filed away in the trash can. Zeta barring injury is a type of dog that could run clean and crisp well past middle age, so there will be lots of time to give it go and impress another judges panel.

[gundogguy]

No Cigar today in central Ontario for FC CFC Zeta Passed a bird in the 3rd series. when running on edge you could go Yard or go home it is the risk you run.
Placements today
1st Tolo Ludwig (cocker)
2nd Tommy Keller
3rd Murphy Manz (cocker)
4th Zachary Wallace
Run tomorrow then head for home for a well deserved rest.

[Trekmoor]

It would soon bore you if you won every time out. That is what I'll be saying tomorrow after the test I'm competing in . :roll:

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

It would soon bore you if you won every time out. That is what I'll be saying tomorrow after the test I'm competing in . :roll:

Bill T.

Bill in some circles winning might be boring but it sure more exciting than the alternative. And today is a new day compare to yesterday
FC CFC Zeta hits out of the park Take 1st place in the Central Ontario trial on Sunday May 22. That is 2 wins and a 2nd in four trials this past week A great trip north for sure. Maybe I should check into getting her citizenship papers

[polmaise]

Bill had a bad day at Glendye . Hunting score was well ?. and a duck egg on handling the blind .
Back to the drawing board is not a bad thing when at a venue other than training , but I'm sure it will come good. Hunting scores in 'tests' can be well 'judgemental' and often the cover can make a good good look either bad or good . Handling however requires training.
So the one from our stables who took the silver was on rabbits in all sorts .
Congratulations. Gundogguy.

[Sharon]

Congrats MIke l. It was nice to watch your dogs work.

edited : changed Bill to Mike

[Trekmoor]

Went to todays test and we wuz rubbish ! Edge did as I expected and failed the blind retrieve losing the whole 20 points. He got full marks for the retrieve over the river .........the very thing that lost many other dogs marks.

His hunting was what I like to see but not what most British judges like to see so he lost 25 of the 60 marks for that.
Cover was almost non-existent , he was hunting over fairly short grass with a few little clumps of "rashes" .....the stuff I call spike grass. There was very little wind and what wind existed was a cheek - wind. It poured rain for about 3 hours solid and Edge ran in very heavy rain.......as did several others.........I felt very sorry for the judges having to stand around in all the rain.

Edge ran fast but he also ran "far" ......a bit too far for the judges liking. I let him out to about 20 yards and blew turn on him twice during his run. I liked his hunt but the judges did not, one comment I heard was "not hunting nose down" and another one was , " He (Edge) certainly isn't a boot polisher !"

Personally, I am inclined to have spaniels hunt more in an American fashion than in a British one , I just find it more entertaining and maybe more productive too if the game being hunted is pheasants.

The complete failure on the blind retrieve will sorted out in time but the hunting he does is likely to remain the same because that is the way I like it. That being the case he is unlikely to do well here in competitions unless I run him under judges who are closer to my way of thinking about hunting styles and ranges.

I was shown an area of ground close to where I live during the journey home from the test where rabbits are said to be plentiful. Maybe if I do some rabbit hunting with him I will appreciate a closer hunting dog a bit more .
Anyway, no matter what the judges thought of our work, I had a great day out meeting old friends from the worlds of retrievers, H.P.R.'s and spaniels and then swapping insults with them !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Curiously and confusingly as all things are when posted in test , the dog that won the very same test is an 'eedjit' (some may want to look that up on google) on the ground that Bill describes , but hey' . That's > ....
American style or Uk style ?..Hmmm ..If it has style it has or has not on that day.
Glad You flew out on your private jet Sharon , should have dropped in for tea .(Or was that a different Bill) my apolgies.

[Trekmoor]

Surely nobody called the winning dog an "eedjit ?" That dog hunted hard and fast and in range, it deserved to win.
The thing that surprised me at todays test was the number of spaniels in Novice that did not fancy entering the river . I think all of them eventually did but only after some handling on what was a marked retrieve over water.

I didn't think much of that but then I watched a couple of the HPR's and even a few of the labs looking a bit "iffy" about entering the river. Some of the dogs from all of the breed groups were deviating from a straight line of entry to look for easier or less high entry places.

I saw one crazy little cocker that was the reverse of this. The little demon found it's dummy up on the far bank then on the return journey it threw itself out from a considerable height while carrying the dummy to land about 8 -10 feet out in the river with it. The cocker was still wagging it's tail furiously as it delivered the dummy to hand.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Glad You flew out on your private jet Sharon , should have dropped in for tea .(Or was that a different Bill) my apolgies.

Nice whenever the term Test and Trial come up in the same conversation confusion generally rules the day. Spaniel trial was in Canada, Bill T participated in a Test in the UK.
The spaniel world is a very busy place on a world wide basis.

Very nice report Trekmoor( Bill T). Your Edge dog is being ask to negotiate a number of skills and talents.

[CDN_Cocker]

Congrats Hal and Zeta!

[Sharon]

Curiously and confusingly as all things are when posted in test , the dog that won the very same test is an 'eedjit' (some may want to look that up on google) on the ground that Bill describes , but hey' . That's > ....
American style or Uk style ?..Hmmm ..If it has style it has or has not on that day.
Glad You flew out on your private jet Sharon , should have dropped in for tea .(Or was that a different Bill) my apolgies.

You are a riot. ( sometimes.) LOL No , I drove to Erin ON to see Mike work Gundoggy's dogs. It was well worth the trip. Learned a lot.

...............edited to fix the names

[polmaise]

Curiously and confusingly as all things are when posted in test , the dog that won the very same test is an 'eedjit' (some may want to look that up on google) on the ground that Bill describes , but hey' . That's > ....
American style or Uk style ?..Hmmm ..If it has style it has or has not on that day.
Glad You flew out on your private jet Sharon , should have dropped in for tea .(Or was that a different Bill) my apolgies.

You are a riot. ( sometimes.) LOL No , I drove to Erin ON to see gundoggy work his dogs. It was well worth the trip. Learned a lot.

Having a ball.
Hope you are well .
On the 'Edge' at Erin . Sounds good . I'm sure watching 'Gundogguy' taking his dogs for a walk would teach many a thing or two.

[gundogguy]

Zeta is home for a summer break. A short rest and the then the conditioning will begin for the Amateur All-Age trials and the National Open Champs later this year. The NC's will be held in Ohio. With the grace of God and a fast outfield we may qualify for the National Amateur as well.
Looking back on her short whirl wind trial career we came up with some interesting stats.. I have always view many aspects of life with that of the game of baseball. America's game that is filled with stats for every possibility.
If a win is equal to a home run and a 2nd place is a triple and a third place is a double and a 4th place is a single,
Here are Zeta's offensive numbers in her short career 5 home runs, 2 triples, 4 doubles and 2 singles.
Batting ave of .650 13 hits in 20 times a bat. She has proven she can hit the high hard one and adjust to the change up at moments notice. Some of our over seas friend may not have a handle on my baseball metaphors and I apologize for that.

Zeta 52916.jpg

Thanks to men and women in the Armed Forces for the blood and treasure and service they have spilled making it possible for us to live in this great country!

[polmaise]

I can follow that ..the wording but the accomplishment takes more . well done and further .

[Trekmoor]

I know nothing at all about baseball but I do know that Zeta is some bitch !

Bill T.

[13ZacMe]

Greetings everyone! Last May I decided to pick up my first dog, and entered into the wonderful world of spaniels! She's a small springer spaniel and I've been training her since the time I got her. So, as I enter into my more regular summer training sessions, I've ran into a few problems I would really appreciate some guidance on. Firstly, she's not steady to shot, but I've trained her on the remote whistle hup (kind of). While at times when she's running around, she may come to a screeching a halt for the whistle, more often than not (especially if I'm not holding a dummy), she'll take a few steps and then take a second to decide she should sit. So my first question is: how do I decrease her response time on the remote sit?
My second problem is concerning her focus. If I have her hup, walk away, and have an assistant standing off to the side between the dog and myself holding a dummy, she won't look me in the eyes; thus making commands less effective. She also won't sit square to me. Is there anything I can do to make sure she's really focusing on me and my commands during distracting situations, and in general (at heel she almost entirely just looks ahead, even when she's hupping next to me). I'm just training her for hunting as of now and genuinely appreciate any help!

Have a good Memorial Day
Zack and Brandy

[mnaj_springer]

Zack, where are you in your training? What have you trained so far? How far along are you?

The e-collar may help you with hup. As for the second situation, I'm trying to picture it, but I can't. What are you trying to accomplish in that scenario? And when do you want her to focus on you? And why?

Sorry for all the questions but answering these will give people a better overall picture which will equal better advice.

[13ZacMe]

Zack, where are you in your training? What have you trained so far? How far along are you?

The e-collar may help you with hup. As for the second situation, I'm trying to picture it, but I can't. What are you trying to accomplish in that scenario? And when do you want her to focus on you? And why?

Sorry for all the questions but answering these will give people a better overall picture which will equal better advice.

She knows all basic commands (heel, kennel, come, hup, leave it, etc) verbally, with the whistle, and hand gestures. I'm currently working on the "baseball" casting exercises for blind retrieves, and working on her quartering pattern some more. She has not been FF.
I assumed that I would want to teach the dog to overcome all distractions and listen to my commands. I hunt public land so I figured absolute obedience with recalls in a distracting environment is critical. I would feel more confident and relaxed knowing that I can keep my dog out of potentially dangerous situations by having some commands just engrained in her. It's really about safety primarily. Thanks, Zack.

[gundogguy]

Zack, Lets be careful using the e-collar. You can turn a nice flushing dog into a pointing dog very quickly.
Steadiness to wing and shot can be worrisome for the dog that does not have the proper foundation training that if done properly will help the dog make the transition quite easily.
YouTube has many examples of of spaniels being steadied, take some time and review some of these examples.
Here are a couple of examples You'll notice there is no ecollar involved


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pas6oIR5bRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcsJKQdpzOE





Best luck with your little spaniel. i have a little gurl dog as well.

[13ZacMe]

Zack, Lets be careful using the e-collar. You can turn a nice flushing dog into a pointing dog very quickly.
Steadiness to wing and shot can be worrisome for the dog that does not have the proper foundation training that if done properly will help the dog make the transition quite easily.
YouTube has many examples of of spaniels being steadied, take some time and review some of these examples.
Here are a couple of examples You'll notice there is no ecollar involved


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pas6oIR5bRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcsJKQdpzOE





Best luck with your little spaniel. i have a little gurl dog as well.

So you'd strongly advise I do the remainder of her training without an e-collar? I've been using the book, "Hup!" and the Training Spaniels to Hunt DVDs, along with various internet resources to develop a training plan for her. Should I just follow their methodology in steadying her?

Thanks,
Zack

[CDN_Cocker]

If you've been following one then yes, stick with it. Hup! is about as good as it gets as far as a somewhat linear spaniel training book. As for the e-collar, it can be somewhat taboo in the spaniel community as there are a lot that are against their use. However, the more you get out and train with others the more you will realize that it is quite widely used. An e-collar is a tool and nothing more. I started my journey with my dog without the e-collar and then transitioned to it midway through my training. I like the e-collar as I believe it is just a quicker, lighter, more effective way to reinforce but all the preliminary training has to be done without it anyways so it's not a make or break thing like it can be with some breeds. You're only using it to reinforce behaviors that have already been learned.

[Trekmoor]

but I've trained her on the remote whistle hup (kind of).
Zack and Brandy

The "kind of" kind of worries me !
The most common reasons I see for pups/dogs not responding fast to remote whistles (stop whistles ?) is that they have not been thoroughly taught them in the first place. Distance from you is your enemy where whistle stops and/or turns are concerned.
Start very close .....just 5-10 feet from you and keep to that until the pup stops reasonably fast every time. Then allow the pup another 5 -10 feet and insist it still stops or turns every time. Continue to extend the distance only when the pup is 100% at the distance you have been allowing it to hunt at.

If the pup should refuse the command more than once during a hunt training session at once return to much shorter ranges until complete obedience has been restored.
Very often pups disobey or are slow to obey commands at distance from their owners as they hunt because the owner has been far too keen to see his pup hunt at range from him and have allowed the pup to take in too much ground too soon.
Keep the pup/dog "close in aboot ye" as they say here in Haggisland and don't let it any further out until it shows it deserves to be further out.
Don't worry too much about inhibiting the pups hunting range while doing this. I train in this way and no dog of mine is a "boot polisher !" They all start to range further out again just as soon as I allow it ..........or even before that !

I've never used an e-collar to teach the sit or the turn during hunting so I cannot advise on that.

Bill T.

[13ZacMe]

but I've trained her on the remote whistle hup (kind of).
Zack and Brandy

The "kind of" kind of worries me !
The most common reasons I see for pups/dogs not responding fast to remote whistles (stop whistles ?) is that they have not been thoroughly taught them in the first place. Distance from you is your enemy where whistle stops and/or turns are concerned.
Start very close .....just 5-10 feet from you and keep to that until the pup stops reasonably fast every time. Then allow the pup another 5 -10 feet and insist it still stops or turns every time. Continue to extend the distance only when the pup is 100% at the distance you have been allowing it to hunt at.

If the pup should refuse the command more than once during a hunt training session at once return to much shorter ranges until complete obedience has been restored.
Very often pups disobey or are slow to obey commands at distance from their owners as they hunt because the owner has been far too keen to see his pup hunt at range from him and have allowed the pup to take in too much ground too soon.
Keep the pup/dog "close in aboot ye" as they say here in Haggisland and don't let it any further out until it shows it deserves to be further out.
Don't worry too much about inhibiting the pups hunting range while doing this. I train in this way and no dog of mine is a "boot polisher !" They all start to range further out again just as soon as I allow it ..........or even before that !

I've never used an e-collar to teach the sit or the turn during hunting so I cannot advise on that.

Bill T.

That's some very sound advice, I really appreciate it! I do have a question about reinforcing commands at a distance though. I've been using almost entirely positive reinforcement for teaching her the remote hup at this point. Even at 5 or 10 ft away from me, how can I make sure the dog sits quickly other than NOT rewarding it for a slow hup?

[gundogguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pas6oIR5bRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcsJKQdpzOE





Best luck with your little spaniel. i have a little gurl dog as well.

So you'd strongly advise I do the remainder of her training without an e-collar? I've been using the book, "Hup!" and the Training Spaniels to Hunt DVDs, along with various internet resources to develop a training plan for her. Should I just follow their methodology in steadying her?

Thanks,
Zack

How much e-collar usage takes place Training spaniels to hunt DVD"? Who are the presenters in the DVD"s? In Book "HUP" Is that James Spencer's book?

[13ZacMe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pas6oIR5bRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcsJKQdpzOE





Best luck with your little spaniel. i have a little gurl dog as well.

So you'd strongly advise I do the remainder of her training without an e-collar? I've been using the book, "Hup!" and the Training Spaniels to Hunt DVDs, along with various internet resources to develop a training plan for her. Should I just follow their methodology in steadying her?

Thanks,
Zack

How much e-collar usage takes place Training spaniels to hunt DVD"? Who are the presenters in the DVD"s? In Book "HUP" Is that James Spencer's book?

Pat Perry is the presenter and no e collars are used, and yes that's James Spencer's book. I've also been using Gun-DOG Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth Roebuck.

[gundogguy]

Nothing wrong with your sources. I assisted James S. putting on a gun dog training workshop a few years back. He did the retriever part of the class on day one, I conducted the upland training portion on day two of the training seminar. Ken Roebuck a UK ex-patriot brought his UK culture to the states some time ago and made some in-roads in the hunting dog community. He has since passed away. Not familiar with Mr.Perry.

Training any gun dog is really a touchy feelly hands on proposition, you have to get your hands dirty. If reading a book or watching a video was all there was to it every one could have an all-age performer. The challenge for the first time dog trainer, especially at the level you are interested in moving your dog to, steadiness, and the elimination of chasing or running in, is not understanding all the facets of the behavior you are trying to build in your dog. The 1st timer has just not seen enough dogs go through the process with his dog alone without back up help and guidance.

The first place I would go and this where I started many years ago, is with my pups breeder. If they are unable to help , then you need to locate a spaniel training club that is involved with training, testing and or trialing. If that is not an option then locating a Spaniel training Pro that you can develop a relationship with. What part of the country do you live in? More than likely I can suggest good spaniel folks to contact that have a solid background in what you want to accomplish. After that the rest is up to you and your dog.

Now concerning this situation of the lack of "quick response to the Hup command". Quick is always one of those words that can be defined differently by two different people.
Your dog may be responding just as quick as it is capable of,at this time, possible do to the work you have been doing maybe causing this "slow" response. It may through clarity in training be able to respond quicker. Clarity is utmost important in this advance training. The level of clarity is an unknown at this time.
I have steady more than 300 dogs for upland work, as hunting dogs, test dogs, and trial dogs. The process begins with the very 1st training session in the dogs relationship with me, because that is goal I have established as the dog matures and the whole process is to be seamless and simple for the dog to comply with. Any time the dog balks or loses it's motivation to comply always is an indication that to much information is being placed on the pups shoulders. So slow down and get some help!
Best of luck.

[Trekmoor]

[ I do have a question about reinforcing commands at a distance though. I've been using almost entirely positive reinforcement for teaching her the remote hup at this point. Even at 5 or 10 ft away from me, how can I make sure the dog sits quickly other than NOT rewarding it for a slow hup?

That is quite a big question ! I have no dead cert answers to it. I am not a "positive only" dog trainer and by the sounds of it neither are you. If you work with the dog close to you then you can get to it far more quickly when it errs. I train for fast sits but I do not always get them .......some dogs just do sit faster than others and I accept that instead of making a big issue of it as long as the dog makes a very positive stop.

I have a cocker here that won a field trial about 8 years ago. He never sits unless commanded to by voice even when very close to me......about 3-5 feet ! He stops instantly though and he remains in that stop/stand until told to hunt on or to retrieve. I've seen him remain in the stop/stand for nearly 10 minutes. That is good enough for me and it was good enough for the judges that gave him the trial win too.

Think of what you really need. Is it the sit or is it the very positive Stop ? If only a definite stop is required why worry the dog and possibly start off some other problem by being too insistent on a fast sit ? Very often the type of cover a spaniel is working in makes sitting almost impossible or even painful to the dog. Absolute obedience would require you to make the dog sit even when it would be very uncomfortable or painful for the dog to do so.

I have the son of the dog that does not sit. Unlike his sire he throws his backside to the ground very fast in response to a whistle, a flush or a shot. I achieved this by playing with him turning the sit to whistle into a game which he felt he'd won if he sat very quickly.
By sheer chance I took a photograph that caught him sitting in his usual very fast way to a rabbit he'd just flushed. The trouble was he'd flushed it while among brambles and he had sat down very fast and hard on the prickles ! The expression on his face said it all. This is the photograph.


Bill T.

[13ZacMe]

Nothing wrong with your sources. I assisted James S. putting on a gun dog training workshop a few years back. He did the retriever part of the class on day one, I conducted the upland training portion on day two of the training seminar. Ken Roebuck a UK ex-patriot brought his UK culture to the states some time ago and made some in-roads in the hunting dog community. He has since passed away. Not familiar with Mr.Perry.

Training any gun dog is really a touchy feelly hands on proposition, you have to get your hands dirty. If reading a book or watching a video was all there was to it every one could have an all-age performer. The challenge for the first time dog trainer, especially at the level you are interested in moving your dog to, steadiness, and the elimination of chasing or running in, is not understanding all the facets of the behavior you are trying to build in your dog. The 1st timer has just not seen enough dogs go through the process with his dog alone without back up help and guidance.

The first place I would go and this where I started many years ago, is with my pups breeder. If they are unable to help , then you need to locate a spaniel training club that is involved with training, testing and or trialing. If that is not an option then locating a Spaniel training Pro that you can develop a relationship with. What part of the country do you live in? More than likely I can suggest good spaniel folks to contact that have a solid background in what you want to accomplish. After that the rest is up to you and your dog.

Now concerning this situation of the lack of "quick response to the Hup command". Quick is always one of those words that can be defined differently by two different people.
Your dog may be responding just as quick as it is capable of,at this time, possible do to the work you have been doing maybe causing this "slow" response. It may through clarity in training be able to respond quicker. Clarity is utmost important in this advance training. The level of clarity is an unknown at this time.
I have steady more than 300 dogs for upland work, as hunting dogs, test dogs, and trial dogs. The process begins with the very 1st training session in the dogs relationship with me, because that is goal I have established as the dog matures and the whole process is to be seamless and simple for the dog to comply with. Any time the dog balks or loses it's motivation to comply always is an indication that to much information is being placed on the pups shoulders. So slow down and get some help!
Best of luck.

I'm located in central Pennsylvania (more North East though). I'm really thankful such experienced trainers, like you all are, are taking the time to assist me.

[13ZacMe]

[ I do have a question about reinforcing commands at a distance though. I've been using almost entirely positive reinforcement for teaching her the remote hup at this point. Even at 5 or 10 ft away from me, how can I make sure the dog sits quickly other than NOT rewarding it for a slow hup?

That is quite a big question ! I have no dead cert answers to it. I am not a "positive only" dog trainer and by the sounds of it neither are you. If you work with the dog close to you then you can get to it far more quickly when it errs. I train for fast sits but I do not always get them .......some dogs just do sit faster than others and I accept that instead of making a big issue of it as long as the dog makes a very positive stop.

I have a cocker here that won a field trial about 8 years ago. He never sits unless commanded to by voice even when very close to me......about 3-5 feet ! He stops instantly though and he remains in that stop/stand until told to hunt on or to retrieve. I've seen him remain in the stop/stand for nearly 10 minutes. That is good enough for me and it was good enough for the judges that gave him the trial win too.

Think of what you really need. Is it the sit or is it the very positive Stop ? If only a definite stop is required why worry the dog and possibly start off some other problem by being too insistent on a fast sit ? Very often the type of cover a spaniel is working in makes sitting almost impossible or even painful to the dog. Absolute obedience would require you to make the dog sit even when it would be very uncomfortable or painful for the dog to do so.

I have the son of the dog that does not sit. Unlike his sire he throws his backside to the ground very fast in response to a whistle, a flush or a shot. I achieved this by playing with him turning the sit to whistle into a game which he felt he'd won if he sat very quickly.
By sheer chance I took a photograph that caught him sitting in his usual very fast way to a rabbit he'd just flushed. The trouble was he'd flushed it while among brambles and he had sat down very fast and hard on the prickles ! The expression on his face said it all. This is the photograph.


Bill T.

That's a very good point about the definite stop vs the quick stop. I'd have to say the positive stop is actually what's more important to me.

[CDN_Cocker]

I'm located in central Pennsylvania (more North East though). I'm really thankful such experienced trainers, like you all are, are taking the time to assist me.

Great location!!! Lookup Royal Kennels or Flushing Star Gun Dogs..... both have lots of experience. My cocker is a flushing star dog and he's a cut above - actually a bit too much dog for my novice level but he's a complete joy to hunt with.

[Trekmoor]

A definite stop and a fast stop/stand can be and should be the same thing. It is the insistence on a fast sit that can cause problems. All I'm saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Bill T.

[mnaj_springer]

Zack, where are you in your training? What have you trained so far? How far along are you?

The e-collar may help you with hup. As for the second situation, I'm trying to picture it, but I can't. What are you trying to accomplish in that scenario? And when do you want her to focus on you? And why?

Sorry for all the questions but answering these will give people a better overall picture which will equal better advice.

She knows all basic commands (heel, kennel, come, hup, leave it, etc) verbally, with the whistle, and hand gestures. I'm currently working on the "baseball" casting exercises for blind retrieves, and working on her quartering pattern some more. She has not been FF.
I assumed that I would want to teach the dog to overcome all distractions and listen to my commands. I hunt public land so I figured absolute obedience with recalls in a distracting environment is critical. I would feel more confident and relaxed knowing that I can keep my dog out of potentially dangerous situations by having some commands just engrained in her. It's really about safety primarily. Thanks, Zack.

Like others have said, the foundation for "hup" is created near you and then built on as you increase distance. I know some here have not endorsed the e-collar, but I believe it is a very useful tool when used correctly, same as a leash or checkcord.

I understand what you're saying about wanting to keep the dog focused, but realize that sometimes eye contact is unnecessary for focus. I too am steadying my spaniel. After the flush I blow the hup whistle and she sits, facing the bird, marking the fall. Then going on her name. She sits, marks, remains steady, and goes out for the retrieve without ever looking at me, but she is focused on me, just not visually. And that's ok because I prefer she get a good mark over looking at my featherless face.

Do you plan to FF her?

[gundogguy]

Zac, PM sent with Penn contacts.

[13ZacMe]

Zack, where are you in your training? What have you trained so far? How far along are you?

The e-collar may help you with hup. As for the second situation, I'm trying to picture it, but I can't. What are you trying to accomplish in that scenario? And when do you want her to focus on you? And why?

Sorry for all the questions but answering these will give people a better overall picture which will equal better advice.

She knows all basic commands (heel, kennel, come, hup, leave it, etc) verbally, with the whistle, and hand gestures. I'm currently working on the "baseball" casting exercises for blind retrieves, and working on her quartering pattern some more. She has not been FF.
I assumed that I would want to teach the dog to overcome all distractions and listen to my commands. I hunt public land so I figured absolute obedience with recalls in a distracting environment is critical. I would feel more confident and relaxed knowing that I can keep my dog out of potentially dangerous situations by having some commands just engrained in her. It's really about safety primarily. Thanks, Zack.

Like others have said, the foundation for "hup" is created near you and then built on as you increase distance. I know some here have not endorsed the e-collar, but I believe it is a very useful tool when used correctly, same as a leash or checkcord.

I understand what you're saying about wanting to keep the dog focused, but realize that sometimes eye contact is unnecessary for focus. I too am steadying my spaniel. After the flush I blow the hup whistle and she sits, facing the bird, marking the fall. Then going on her name. She sits, marks, remains steady, and goes out for the retrieve without ever looking at me, but she is focused on me, just not visually. And that's ok because I prefer she get a good mark over looking at my featherless face.

Do you plan to FF her?

My dog does listen very intently even when not looking at me, I'm just worried that lets say on a blind retrieve I end up having to cast her to where I know the bird is, and she won't look at me for direction. I also believe the e-collar could be used with my dog, but I guess I'm not experienced enough for that. Many have advocated I give up the e collar and just stick with a check cord. The check cord has worked to this point, but I can envision how an e-collar would help me reach my goals with the dog. As of now, I'm leaning towards no on FF. Her retrieves can be a little sloppy at times though. Maybe when I visit a trainer they'll be able to recommend whether or not I should FF her, or she just needs some help with her natural retrieve.

[mnaj_springer]

Zack, everyone who is new to training will not be "qualified" to use an e-collar. You just have to be willing to learn how to use them properly. Working with a mentor, training group, or trainer helps.

As for FF, there are other benefits to the process beyond a polished retrieve.

[13ZacMe]

Zack, everyone who is new to training will not be "qualified" to use an e-collar. You just have to be willing to learn how to use them properly. Working with a mentor, training group, or trainer helps.

As for FF, there are other benefits to the process beyond a polished retrieve.

What are some of the other benefits for real world use? Sorry, I'm just not that familiar with FF.

[gundogguy]

Zack, everyone who is new to training will not be "qualified" to use an e-collar. You just have to be willing to learn how to use them properly. Working with a mentor, training group, or trainer helps.

As for FF, there are other benefits to the process beyond a polished retrieve.

What are some of the other benefits for real world use? Sorry, I'm just not that familiar with FF.

Keep your eye on the prize! If you dog is nor delivering bumps or birds to hand your not ready for steadying. A proper retrieve is the prerequisite to to steadiness. Do not not get the cart in front of the horse!
Basics must be confidently perform before one advances to thee advanced behaviors.
Here is a short clip on a confident dog doing some warm-up drill be for she is ask to handle some flyers and live action hunting and marking drills,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhvzKtzSHoA

[welsh]

I have not been around for a while. Busy travelling. As a result of that travel I did not attend the trials here in Ont this spring and missed Zeta in all her glory. So belated congrats to gundogguy.

Re 13ZacMe:

Two points you raised that nobody has touched on yet: dog does not keep eye contact with you and dog does not hup square to you.

If the dog does not hup square to you (assuming you are talking about working with the dog close), back up and call it in. Lather, rinse, repeat. Move and get the dog to come in and hup again until it hups square to you. Don't release it to hunt until it does. If you're talking about not facing you on the hup when you stop it 20 yards out, ignore these remarks.

Re eye contact, a question: how much training do you do with this dog, how many times a week? Reducing the frequency of training will increase the dog's focus on you. Also, it has to be clear to the dog that it doesn't get to do it's thing unless it focuses on you. Before you cast the dog off, do you insist it hups square to you and makes eye contact?

[polmaise]

She knows all basic commands (heel, kennel, come, hup, leave it, etc) verbally, with the whistle, and hand gestures. I'm currently working on the "baseball" casting exercises for blind retrieves, and working on her quartering pattern some more. She has not been FF.
I assumed that I would want to teach the dog to overcome all distractions and listen to my commands. I hunt public land so I figured absolute obedience with recalls in a distracting environment is critical. I would feel more confident and relaxed knowing that I can keep my dog out of potentially dangerous situations by having some commands just engrained in her. It's really about safety primarily. Thanks, Zack.

Like others have said, the foundation for "hup" is created near you and then built on as you increase distance. I know some here have not endorsed the e-collar, but I believe it is a very useful tool when used correctly, same as a leash or checkcord.

I understand what you're saying about wanting to keep the dog focused, but realize that sometimes eye contact is unnecessary for focus. I too am steadying my spaniel. After the flush I blow the hup whistle and she sits, facing the bird, marking the fall. Then going on her name. She sits, marks, remains steady, and goes out for the retrieve without ever looking at me, but she is focused on me, just not visually. And that's ok because I prefer she get a good mark over looking at my featherless face.

Do you plan to FF her?[/quote]

My dog does listen very intently even when not looking at me, I'm just worried that lets say on a blind retrieve I end up having to cast her to where I know the bird is, and she won't look at me for direction. I also believe the e-collar could be used with my dog, but I guess I'm not experienced enough for that. Many have advocated I give up the e collar and just stick with a check cord. The check cord has worked to this point, but I can envision how an e-collar would help me reach my goals with the dog. As of now, I'm leaning towards no on FF. Her retrieves can be a little sloppy at times though. Maybe when I visit a trainer they'll be able to recommend whether or not I should FF her, or she just needs some help with her natural retrieve.[/quote]
Sounds like something like 'Focus' is missing ? ..especially on the 'Hup and Hup' these days ...Unless I'm missing the 'Hup' -Point ..as stop or even stop on flush , or even .er some suggestions that 'eye contact' is of no requirement.? ..(except in the dark) !.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quiviZ7G15Q

[CDN_Cocker]

Robert - love that classic look at the end where the dog is staring up at you as you talk. What I think people would benefit from - what do you do in your daily interactions with the dog to get it to that point. My dog is always intent on me but I couldn't tell you how I got him there - he's always been that way since a pup.

[polmaise]

Robert - love that classic look at the end where the dog is staring up at you as you talk. What I think people would benefit from - what do you do in your daily interactions with the dog to get it to that point. My dog is always intent on me but I couldn't tell you how I got him there - he's always been that way since a pup.

I ignore it
Nah! , well yes and No. !..From early days,and that includes ones older on their first days. I make myself the centre of only attraction including distractions.

[gundogguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhvzKtzSHoA

The essence of spaniel work! The 3-legged stool that combines drive, manners and biddabilty. One of best tutorials, and Robert, you have made a number of them, I have seen.
If the newby's would train for these standards they and their dogs would have many happy times together.

[Trekmoor]

Since it has been well over a month since this thread was "used" I thought I'd mention a problem common to most spaniels but maybe worse in my particular springer !

I'm usually O.K. with training blind retrieves but my present spaniel doesn't think so ! He is a good marker and has a very good memory so memory retrieves come easy to him . I usually use memory retrieves as the basis for training blinds and doing this has always worked with every dog of every breed.

My dog does memories just fine but if he hasn't either seen the dummy fall or be placed or isn't being sent back along the line I have just walked for a "blind seek-back" dummy then he hunts instead of running straight.
I think I am beginning to get somewhere by sending him to an "objective" rather than to a dummy but this 50 yards straight run out by him is being done either on a road with no cover or over very short grass with no cover. If cover is present he quickly goes off-course and hunts all over the place !

As I said, I think I am beginning to overcome this urge of his to quarter his way out to blinds but would be interested to hear your views on the following.
I have talked to some good spaniel trailers here and they do things a bit different from my way of thinking. When their spaniels begin to go off-course they stop the dogs instantly on the whistle then walk to the dog, line it up again from there and re-send it from there.

I have never trained blinds in that way but maybe it is the way to go when handling dogs that are hunt crazy ? What are your thoughts ?

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Bill the situation you describe in your spaniel is quite common in spaniels on this side of the pond as well.
And the methods used by UK Spaniel trialers are part of the conditioning that those that train for blinds or some sort of hunt back might employee.
Blinds in and of themselves are not that appreciated in the Spaniel field trial culture here. specifically if you have to handle on a retrieve blind or otherwise you are more than likely done," over and back to the truck". My Zeta girl has very little knowledge of blinds, in 20 trials she had to be handle 2 times, successful both time with no placements for those efforts.
Spaniel trial dogs here concentrate on hunting pattern and marking retrieves under many different conditions.
It is some thing that the Spaniel Test community has to contend itself with. Though 50 yrds with simple factors is all necessary, and it is not actually a blind it is called a "hunt dead"
There is a blind at water portion for Master level dog test.

[CDN_Cocker]

I think the best way to train a spaniel how to do blinds is to forget the spaniel part and train it as you would a lab. What gundogguy says of spanielers here is what I have observed as well - none of them handle well at all. And while I can appreciate that in a trial the judges are looking for a dog that can hunt and mark, in a real life application - if you're a hunter your dog needs to know how to be handled and blinds are a tool you need in your vest. My trial knowledge is small - I have only watched 4 trials since getting my dog. Out of those times I only saw one dog that was given a line back that actually took it to get the bird, and it was a short blind - 50 yards at the most. I found it very painful to watch people trying to handle their springers and cockers to a bird the dog didn't see fall. But they simply just don't spend much time training it as it isn't seen often in trials. I taught my dog blinds by doing a more traditional retriever approach, starting with pile work. I did not "force to the pile" as my cocker didn't take pressure well, but you do not need it to get a decent Back by using the same methodology. My guy wouldn't stand a chance against labs but at least he'll run straight back, or cast right or left.

[welsh]

This is one of those adjustments that's difficult for a dog to make. He's been consistently trained to cast off to left or right and quarter, and suddenly he's expected to take a line. And there is nothing to indicate that the game has changed, except being sent on a different word. In a hunting scenario a true blind -- where the dog has not a clue where the bird went or what happened -- is rare. The dog has usually seen part of the flight of the bird or can mark off the gun (if he's experienced). He isn't taken out to a field and simply told to go. But the aspect of handling I have found most difficult is not the back, but the over. It's relatively easy to train the dog to take a line, but I find the dog wants to run back towards me on an over, possibly because she's used to working closer in. You stop the dog at 60 yards and give it an over; can it be blamed for seeing that hand signal and thinking, "Gosh, I'm hunting out of range! Better close in."

When we ask a spaniel to handle like a retriever and hunt like a spaniel, we're asking it to master two entirely different skill sets.

[welsh]

Oh, and while we're talkin' spaniels ... I'm getting little sleep this week.

[polmaise]

When we ask a spaniel to handle like a retriever and hunt like a spaniel, we're asking it to master two entirely different skill sets.

And the 'Little ones' are more than capable if you train for this kind of stuff .
Knowing a Hunt position (hup) before it hunts/quests is a conditioned behaviour ,much like a Retrieve position (heel) is conditioned . Marry the two together when the dog has 'Mastered' them both ,if the early WW drills and R/L Hand backs are in place a good stop whistle and you have a handling dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av41yFJYrzQ

[welsh]

Right, but the point is, what generally happens is people train one set of skills and then the other, so the dog is confused in the transition.

If we train for it, the dogs can master both skill sets. It's a pity that spaniel trials don't encourage training dogs to handle at a high level.