crackerd wrote: s . (Please look down on me kindly, ED W )
MG
Ed W is looking down kindly, that why are paths have crossed!
crackerd wrote: s . (Please look down on me kindly, ED W )
MG
It will be interesting to hear what happens with Jake. I understand that you're very big on non-slip training, but I think my vocabulary must be a little bit off. My understanding of non-slip retrievers was that they remained a heel until sent for a retrieve, and then, if necessary, are capable of being handled to the retrieve. I understand there is a lot of obedience and control that goes into that training. But, there is no "questing" that happens with those dogs (again, just my understanding, which may be wrong). From what I'm reading in Cass' posts, what he is doing while hunting with Jake is not non-slip retrieving, but rather letting his dog hunt, and then hopefully sit on the flush. I know from experience that training a dog to be steady while hunting is nearly impossible. If it's real hunting, half the time the cover is too thick to see the dog even when ten yards away. It is not a sterile training environment, and the dog will begin to take some liberties unless Cass is more interested in training the dog than shooting birds. From his post, I think he's out there to hunt with his dog, and while training is important to him, so is hunting with his dog. More power to him, he should be enjoying his dog.crackerd wrote:Interesting to see if this happens with Jake, since he's getting trained nonslip by Cass (with Kraka's guidance) via a retriever program, and that kind of rebelliousness does not happen with retrievers even though they have their fun at much greater distances. Nonslip training augmented with the e-collar doesn't mask or hide anything, it's integral to that training program, and in my experience, it's also very good for a flushing spaniel because it's also obedience-based.jhorak wrote:They'll make you think they're the most well-behaved and easy to train dogs in the world until they get to their second season of hunting. At that point they will decide they now know more than you do and have no need for your intervention in their hunting pursuits. Just wait, it'll happen Jake is at the age right now where he doesn't know anything, and you are the source of all things good in his life, as well as his source of confidence. When they get older, they get more confident, and realize that they can have fun 50 yards away from you. It's just new challenges that are easily overcome, but can still be frustrating. I believe you're using the e-collar which will probably hide a lot of those issues, while the collar is on anyway.
A questing or quartering pattern inevitably falls under the heading of obedience, and the pip-pip on your Acme 210.5 is a come about command just like the single blast means to stop for gundogs and three blasts commands them to come in. Any spaniel can come unsteady and most certainly any can also "learn" if it gets by with punching out, there's a wide, wide world out there to explore (and have fun in so doing). Good obedience changes all that. Retrievers don't have "sophomore slumps" or "the terrible twos," and spaniels getting the kind of training Jake's lucked into needn't be overcome by that sort of thing either.
MG
Maybe there's ambiguity as to the meaning of nonslip. For the Brits it means a Lab walking at heel at a field trial or on a driven shoot until sent for a retrieve. For (some) Scots it may mean essentially same, but also may include what it means to "our side:" a dog that goes when sent, as sent, but otherwise is nonslip in performing, i.e., steady in a blind, or whilst honoring another dog's retrieve. As for "learn(ing) to be obedient to all commands," nonslip really all boils down to Sit means sit, the most basic tenet of retriever training. All else springs forth from that simple command and execution of it - for every retriever program that I'm familiar with.As to a Spaniel program, there are many resources that give guidance for every phase of the training, but not a step-by-step that you're referring to. Frankly, I'm not convinced that a program like that would be beneficial to me-- all of my dogs have different personalities, developed at different speeds, and have different weaknesses. Wouldn't a hard and fast program like that deprive dogs of the training needed to overcome their weak points? Or are the programs able to adapt to different dogs?
Can you give me a better idea of how your non-slip training is beneficial for a dog that is supposed to be quartering with high-intensity? Is it that they, in a more generic way, learn to be obedient to all commands, or is it indeed a pragmatic way of achieving a nice questing pattern?
crackerd wrote: My only contention is the same geometry of the game comes into play on a quartering pattern, (Please look down on me kindly, ED W )
MG
crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just an honest inquiry here. pm if you'd like.crackerd wrote:Great stuff, gunddogguy, keep it comin' (as if seancing with Ed W. - don't know how he felt about the authors you cited, but I'm simpatico with your every critique, especially the Metropolitan copper )
MG
I personally liked the quirky comment rather than any intentUplandJim wrote:
crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just and honest inquiry here.
Thanks
UplandJim wrote:crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just an honest inquiry here. pm if you'd like.crackerd wrote:Great stuff, gunddogguy, keep it comin' (as if seancing with Ed W. - don't know how he felt about the authors you cited, but I'm simpatico with your every critique, especially the Metropolitan copper )
MG
Thanks
Outstanding, Gunddogguy - can you please post this (including photos) to your other (UK) spaniel haunt where they will be most impressed by a working fieldie? The HRC title particularly, bravo to Ms. Bilinsky and all involved! - and really digging on the water entry photo.gundogguy wrote:Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc
gundogguy wrote:Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc
Not known at the time, but our own Springerdude was on the judging panel Sunday at the Fox River test. You had a tough weekend I'm sure, thanks for your contributions
Hal
Tim, I think you're right on, I got carried away with the word "Grand" in the immediate aftermath of the fall HRC Grand and thought, Wow, a fieldie GHRCH! - Grand Hunting Retriever Champion. The show stuff I associate with UKC, guess what you'd call the parent org. of HRC. Wonder if Gundogguy can tell us if the dog's also an AKC Ch. (show title) in addition to the MH?SpringerDude wrote:I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.
Congrates on the gaining another MH leg your knocking 'em down right in order good going. She really is the reincarnated Pie dog by her looks any She bring a tear to Don's eyeSpringerDude wrote:Congrats on the MH leg your knocking 'em down one after the other. Good going!gundogguy wrote:Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc
Not known at the time, but our own Springerdude was on the judging panel Sunday at the Fox River test. You had a tough weekend I'm sure, thanks for your contributions
Hal
Karen did a nice job with Tai on Sunday. It was nice to meet her and see her Field Spaniels run. These dogs have some fun and run in them and cover ground quickly and nicely. I am sure that Hal will agree that Tai is worthy of a Master Title.
MG, I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.
crackerd wrote:Tim, I think you're right on, I got carried away with the word "Grand" in the immediate aftermath of the fall HRC Grand and thought, Wow, a fieldie GHRCH! - Grand Hunting Retriever Champion. The show stuff I associate with UKC, guess what you'd call the parent org. of HRC. Wonder if Gundogguy can tell us if the dog's also an AKC Ch. (show title) in addition to the MH?SpringerDude wrote:I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.
Congratulations on your judging and master pass accomplishments.
MG
GDG, pretty sure I haven't the proper appreciation for all those agility and conformation letters and other prefixes and suffixes that go with the dog's name, but hope you can make of the idea of running one of the minor breeds in a spaniel trial appealing enough to get her to give it a go. What do you think of her chances at a placement? Have you run Canadian trials (betting they're 99.9% ESS and cockers, but can you break the numbers down between the two breeds)?gundogguy wrote:gundogguy wrote:The Fieldie in question is a double conformation show champion "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF" ...
I have really posture hard with Karen to go Canadian and run in trials where the breed is accepted.
The allure of those prefixes and suffixes is terrible strong in todays breed folks. Canadian trials are tough from a logistic standpoint. Most folks would be driving past events here in the states just to go there. In the dog game time is opportunity.crackerd wrote:GDG, pretty sure I haven't the proper appreciation for all those agility and conformation letters and other prefixes and suffixes that go with the dog's name, but hope you can make of the idea of running one of the minor breeds in a spaniel trial appealing enough to get her to give it a go. What do you think of her chances at a placement? Have you run Canadian trials (betting they're 99.9% ESS and cockers, but can you break the numbers down between the two breeds)?gundogguy wrote:gundogguy wrote:The Fieldie in question is a double conformation show champion "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF" ...
I have really posture hard with Karen to go Canadian and run in trials where the breed is accepted.
MG
CDN_Cocker wrote:I got a good question for the Spot... How do you train your dog to be steady to flush? I have been hunting my pup a fair amount this fall to get him lots of bird contacts. And I have been making him sit when he flushes but to do this I always have to blow the stop whistle when he has a flush. Will be eventually make the connection and do it on his own or is there a specific way to train this? He's great to stop when I hit the whistle and I don't mind that I don't get to take a lot of shots because I am focusing on making him sit - after all its his first year so his hunting and training are kind of being meshed together. I'm just thinking about down the line when he's 2 or 3 years old, I certainly don't want to have to always hit the whistle, especially if I don't see the flush - as with a rabbit.
Cass, it's early, thought you were talking about Jim L instead of Jim K and my eyebrows arched like that span in St. Louis - steady's steady but many trainers make a mistake of steadying a retriever too early and are prone to taking some of the "go" out of the dog that can't be put back in. (It's almost "national policy" in the UK, but they don't need the kind of "go" over there that we do, if only because they don't use water but for .01% of their retrieves.)CDN_Cocker wrote:Jim K doesn't believe in steadying a young dog (at least that's what he told me lol) and told me he let's his pups run in and chase the first season then steady work comes after the season closes.
You got it he's definitely much more qualified than myself which is why I have enforced the stop whistle from the beginning. I'm not worried about him losing any go, he's full of it and I don't think he's going to give any up any time soon. Just was wondering what the next step was. I do know as well that although he is learning while hunting you cannot really train - I'm just basically keeping him under control and making sure to always enforce commands. After December I plan on of course polishing the basics again and really developing his quartering and stopping to flush with pigeons and my mentor's help. My main priority this season was making sure he got a nose full of wild birds - didn't want him to miss out on that in his first year of life. I'd say I've been successful - he's a grouse machine. I thought there were no grouse around... Last year I only bagged 1 all season. I've seen more this year than my whole life Thanks to having a well bred pup. A dog really does make all the difference. I don't even know what I was doing all those years before having a bird dog lol. Sure doesn't seem like hunting looking back on it nowcrackerd wrote:your breeder may do it but have to realize he's also got the wherewithal after these many years to know what training works for him
MG
- I'm just basically keeping him under control and making sure to always enforce commands.CDN_Cocker wrote:crackerd wrote:your breeder may do it but have to realize he's also got the wherewithal after these many years to know what training works for him
MG
I am not worried about taking any "go" out of him (he's a crazy cocker after all) so am not against steadying him I just wanted to be able to hunt him this first season so the training has kind of been pushed aside as far as proper quartering. I am not saying my dog runs wild. He's 100% on recall, stops to whistle when and where ever, and turns on the whistle as well. He is flushing for me, he does not get out too wide, but it is more his natural quartering rather than anything I have taught to any extent. I do not allow disobedience, he is solid on that. I just mean that I did not make him steady to flush before hunting him. When he does flush, I hit the whistle and he sits for me to take a shot - he just doesn't sit on his own when he flushes (I need to use the stop whistle). I should also add I have not stopped training - we still do obedience drills daily and are working on FTP and 3 handed casting. Does that make more sense?polmaise wrote:I'm not 'getting' these recent posts and videos Cass?....
I must be seeing and reading something different?......
I know you guy's do things different, ...but the spaniel is a flushing dog...I kinda like them flushing for me.
Even my good friend MG , Is hinting on the Hunting,with the fox, but I ain't never had a flusher/hunter that had 'No go'!...had many a retriever in for training/rehabilitation ,that had the 'No' taken out!
...
Horses for courses, and You have a 'trainer' on the sidewalk', that's good!....I always insist on the brakes when going down hill,and a 'Handbrake' when parked on one
FirearmFan wrote:Here is Loki on his 1st live bird. He is becoming bird crazy.
Awesome keep at it! Spaniels and pigeons go together like pb and j!FirearmFan wrote:Here is Loki on his 1st live bird. He is becoming bird crazy.
CDN_Cocker wrote:I wasn't aware cockers could go in those tests
Sharon wrote:Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?
Same here last weekend great autumn weather a nice way to proof steadiness. working on bird in mouth marking drill, though marks are mostly dink and dunk in the tower shoot, did have reasonable blinds to work on and a good walk-up after wards was a bit disorganized, but we managed to get one of older gals some contacts and that was good.SpringerDude wrote:Had a great time yesterday working a European Shoot.
We had a great group of dogs on the course today. Breeds represented were : German Shorthair, Dratthaar, Lab, Braque Francais, and English Springer Spaniels.
And it's all nonslip, ain't it, Tim?SpringerDude wrote: But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.
2013 National Cocker Championshipcrackerd wrote:SpringerDude wrote: But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.
Hey, Gundogguy, more on the cocker national, if you can fill us in.
MG
SpringerDude wrote:Gundogguy,
When I first started working the dogs at a Euro Shoot, I would tally the retrieves for the day. However, I soon started focusing on the cool retrieves. The one or two retrieves that stretches a dog out a distance or a double mark, or back in the timber across a creek.... you know what I mean. The retrieves that really make you smile.
But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.
It is really a fun way to enjoy the dogs. I really enjoy seeing the good shooters struggle with a high flying bird with a strong tail wind pushing it. Man, can those birds fly fast. I am yelling Big Lead .. Bigger Lead... get way out in front. And then I say, "And that bird is brought to you by Winchester. Buy all your ammunition from Winchester". We do have fun!
gundogguy wrote:Could you be more specific? What vid? What name?Sharon wrote:Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?
Sharon wrote:Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?