The Spaniel Spot

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:11 am

What a great place to get your pup! I'm jealous! Good luck and have fun. ask a ton of questions, no one will mind.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:26 am

polmaise wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:Hey guys just came in from training so thought I would throw this out. One of the things that has always blown me away since Jake was young was his scenting ability. He can be running at mach 3 and if he catches wind of bird or dummy it's like he ran into a wall and he zeroes in on it. That being said I just had one of those training sessions where it seemed like he couldn't smell a dummy if you taped it to his nose. Any idea why this happens? We were working on blinds and I know it wasn't that he was bored or anything of that nature - he was hunting hard to find it once he got to the area however he just seemed to struggle on scenting it. I'm not looking for advice as I'm sure tomorrow will be a different story, just kind of curious about other people's experiences with it and why you think it happens? I see videos a lot too where a spaniel will be hunting and you can see if the dog is doing a poor job as sometimes they are unaware of a flush that happened right by them. I understand environment, wind, and temperature have a lot to do with this I just find it odd sometimes.
I suppose if a 3 year old kid was given a $20 bill he would discard it after the initial touch,because he doesn't know the value of it.
But once the value has been realised it would put its hand through a bramble bush and suffer the scratches to get it.
I don't think your dog was struggling to scent the dummy, I think he was struggling to make sense of what was a $20 dollar bill and a dime

Yes the analogy fits the crime so to speak.
What i think is happening is that Cass is now asking Jake to do some things that are not quite as exciting as grouse and wood cock hunting (Upland, as we say here) But rather he is asking for precision work of the non-slip retriever . Being a yearling there are a lot of growth issues going on in young Jake. And now what with FTP, 3-hand casting drills, pattern blinds life of a young Cocker is becoming predictably boring, no where near as exciting as a romp in the uplands. In other words there is nothing in it for the dog. Once tasted sugar hard to go salt.

My original thought that i had prior to Mr. P 's eloquent analogy was this.. The blood that Jake comes from has never ever been tested or proofed as a non-slip retriever, trained the North American retriever way. I do know the breeder have spent some time to together with him. (Jim K.)
Now I'm not saying that Jake cannot do the work, I am saying that it may take more time than a retriever out of tried and true blood lines.
And the non-slip work that Jake ultimately does remains to be seen.
The issue of Jake not using his nose in a customary fashion at the area of the blind may just be a symptom of the pressure that has been applied to date, and it may have an accumulating effect.
One could write books on this subject if there was the time an space
I cannot and will not offer fixes on a dog I have not seen,especially if the issues are concerning growth issues.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:33 am

Tomb82 wrote:Hey everyone, this is a great thread! I'm picking up my first pup on Saturday. He's a 4 month old springer. I'll be picking him up at the national in Maryland. I've never been to a feild trial before and can't wait to see how it's run and how the top dogs work. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions for you guys so thanks in advance!

That is swell, congratulations, Tomb82, Rely on your breeder,. If this is you first do not think you can do it alone. make your breeder earn his price!
A fairly busy place to pick-up pups i understand the convenience factor. Is this a New York breeding?
I hope that your breeder can find a quiet place away the parking area to go over the initial details of rearing.

Tomb82 · Post by **Tomb82** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:14 am

I'm getting him from Doorcreek kennels out of Wisconsin. I'm sure it's probably not the best place to pick him up but it beats having to drive to Wisconsin or paying for shipping. They've been very helpfull in leading me in the right direction with people to help me train around my area.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:17 am

Hmmm... I think my point was missed. He was hunting hard, and he did not have birds on the brain as we had done other things with the dummy so he knew what he was looking for (and he was looking for it), I just think that the scenting conditions were not good last night when we were training. My post was not so much about my dog - I was more asking insight on scenting in general (any dog - not mine and not fixing problems - I am sure when we train today he'll be back to normal). I just find it interesting that's all.

As an aside Hal, I have linked up with a fellow spaniel trainer and will be working a bit with him here shortly (waiting on him to get a dog back, his one springer bitch has pups right now and the other is in the States preparing for the Nationals so I have to wait till he gets her back), only about an hour and a half drive away. Also found a training group that meets about 2.5 hours away, and while I will not be a regular I have been in contact and will be attending a few sessions. I'm pretty excited. I told him my plans to run hunt tests and he is going to help me and show me drills I can do at home.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:06 am

Tomb82: Congrat's on getting your first pup. Doorcreek produces some nice dogs and I would think would be very helpful in answering questions.

Cass: let us know how your training goes today. Keep the bumper in a short grass area where you can see it. If you use an Orange one, the dog will not see it and you can then determine if the dog is looking for something more interesting or if it just can't locate the bumper due to scenting conditions. Just something to observe and assess.

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:22 am

Scenting is definitely variable. Frost on the ground with no wind/hunting in the rain with no wind both seem to give my dogs scenting problems. I am sure there are other weather conditions I am forgetting that also seem to be what I would consider 'tough scenting conditions'

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:55 am

gundogguy wrote: Yes the analogy fits the crime so to speak.

My original thought that i had prior to Mr. P 's eloquent analogy

I don't take credit for it.
It was said to me by the undesputed most succesful Spaniel handler in the World ,when a dog done exactly the same thing

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:07 am

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote: Yes the analogy fits the crime so to speak.

My original thought that i had prior to Mr. P 's eloquent analogy
I don't take credit for it.
It was said to me by the undesputed most succesful Spaniel handler in the World ,when a dog done exactly the same thing

Strange, I don't remember saying that

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:24 pm

Blackjaw wrote:
Strange, I don't remember saying that

If you Did ,You would

When you have made up over 100 Field Trial Champions ,give us a call

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:21 pm

[ ]

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote: Yes the analogy fits the crime so to speak.

My original thought that i had prior to Mr. P 's eloquent analogy
I don't take credit for it.
It was said to me by the undesputed most succesful Spaniel handler in the World ,when a dog done exactly the same thing

Yes, a tip of the hat and Many kudo's to Openshaw, for hitting the century mark.

The old $20.00 bill vs the dime 0.10, That's why the thought process of trading partridge and wood cock for a bumper a young dog might not fully realize the value!
As well, wet sand will flow through a funnel just so fast, care must be taken when supplying information at such a rapid pace. Many conflicts will arise, be prepared for them.

Cass best of luck with your new found training partners.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:38 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Cass best of luck with your new found training partners.

Cass, are you moving Trainer? away from non slip retrieving with that little Dynamite of yours?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:13 pm

gundogguy wrote:[ ]
polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote: Yes the analogy fits the crime so to speak.

My original thought that i had prior to Mr. P 's eloquent analogy
I don't take credit for it.
It was said to me by the undesputed most succesful Spaniel handler in the World ,when a dog done exactly the same thing
Yes, a tip of the hat and Many kudo's to Openshaw, for hitting the century mark.

The old $20.00 bill vs the dime 0.10 ...

Careful there, gundogguy, that may be Robt.'s ulterior way of telling us that the Tyres and Lissetts ain't worth a plug nickel in his opinion. NO NO NO, Polmaise pardner, just joshing.

But wondering where do they stand in FT wins behind Opie?

As for Cass moving away from nonslip, don't think he was fully undertaking it as conveyed via one of them thar' N. American retriever programs anyhow - not if he was letting his dog "hunt"

on a blind retrieve.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:24 pm

crackerd wrote: But wondering where do they stand in FT wins behind Opie?
MG

Ian is Self employed and Davie is an Employee' Simon is otherwise employed., and that makes a difference!to the titles.(imo);)
They both are a long way behind in numbers, but they share a remarkable gift of 'reading a good dog'

and the more good dogs you have through your hands the more you recognise it.
.............
As for our Cass! ..Dissapointing as I had said in earlier posts .......Loking forward to this 'new way' ?...Perhaps I'll stick to my original plan with the Boykin

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 pm

I always like to end training sessions with a bumper retrieve. Even when introducing birds, I will work bumper retrieves into the drills in order for the dog to understand that retrieving whatever I toss is its priority. No messing around ignoring the bumper ... get it picked up and back quickly. So far, I have had no issues. Maybe I am just lucky.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:26 pm

Never said I was moving away from non slip or changing trainers... i plan on waterfowl huntingwith Jake so non slip is a must. However I have decided to play the hunt test game so the logical thing would be to seek out players in that game

advice my current mentor has given me

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:41 am

Recent training class This video uses two cams to record Zeta's work-out One from the wing guns view and the other from the handle's perspective!

Nice find, great mark on a tough bird up and over a hill. Early in vid, a good correction by me wife,Nancy Jo when Zeta tried to run a shorter pattern than what we require! You will see that correction twice!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evRei2Pscto

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:46 pm

Hmmm! we do it a wee bit different .
I had a young pup that was a spacehopper in high ground but it was soon sorted out.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:51 am

polmaise wrote:Hmmm! we do it a wee bit different .
I had a young pup that was a spacehopper in high ground but it was soon sorted out.

That's fine "Different strokes for different folks" and "When in Rome, do as the ..."

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:14 am

gundogguy wrote:
polmaise wrote:Hmmm! we do it a wee bit different .
I had a young pup that was a spacehopper in high ground but it was soon sorted out.
That's fine "Different strokes for different folks" and "When in Rome, do as the ..."

Hey don't knock it ,he certainly likes running around.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:06 pm

gundogguy wrote:Recent training class ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evRei2Pscto

gundogguy, if you could get Our Cass into that class, or any similar, why, he'd be tickled pink.

Robt., what you call a spacehopper is more like a spaniel as a space-eater on a big flat running pattern such as Zeta's running. To paraphrase, our spaniel courses call for them kind of "horses."

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:55 pm

crackerd wrote: Robt., what you call a spacehopper is more like a spaniel as a space-eater on a big flat running pattern such as Zeta's running. To paraphrase, our spaniel courses call for them kind of "horses."

MG

Gotcha
Trained a springer for a guy that wanted that 'All American way' , Just let it out a bit before the turn whistle,the dog 'cottoned' on to this new pattern ok .Very versitile these springers.

Spacehoppers' or 'Space-eaters' miss game when the cover changes. But as Gundogguy say's ...'Horses for couses'...You never get a real feel for the moment even when there are two camera angles

...You just gotta be there!

Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly .

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:10 pm

polmaise wrote: [Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly.

I ain't gundogguy or obviously Mrs. gundogguy, Robt., but the pip-pip-pip-pipping on the stop whistle is a good way for the dog to differentiate between when you're stopping it after a flush - or stopping it en route to a blind retrieve.

In nonslip training, the dog is on the outrun to a blind when you blow the whistle wanting the dog to stop, spin around and look at you, awaiting your cast. I do not want that to happen when I blow a hup whistle after a flush, I want the dog to mark the bird and hopefully the fall.

When the retrieving spaniels like Boykins are trained nonslip, you want that soft, repetititve hup whistle of the Acme 210.5 just to get their attention that they should remain hupped - not have the whistle signify that you want the dog to stop, spin around give you its attention, instead of marking the bird.

That's how it suits me, but of course, gundogguy may have a more germane response when it comes to field trial spaniels.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:17 pm

crackerd wrote: Robt., but the pip-pip-pip-pipping on the stop whistle is a good way for the dog to differentiate between when you're stopping it after a flush - or stopping it en route to a blind retrieve.

In nonslip training, the dog is on the outrun to a blind when you blow the whistle wanting the dog to stop, spin around and look at you, awaiting your cast. I do not want that to happen when I blow a hup whistle after a flush, I want the dog to mark the bird and hopefully the fall.

When the retrieving spaniels like Boykins are trained nonslip, you want that soft, repetititve hup whistle of the Acme 210.5 just to get their attention that they should remain hupped - not have the whistle signify that you want the dog to stop, spin around give you its attention, instead of marking the bird.

MG

Interesting!!! ?....
I'll wait for Gundogguy ...No dis-respect.my friend. Love to hear from the Spaniel Triallers view ,especially before my Boykin comes over here

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:02 pm

polmaise wrote: Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly .

I asked gundogguy this same question on a different forum about a different vid hahaha. I will let him explain

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:03 pm

Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly .[/quote]

This normal in the training phase with (this) a young dog! This quite normal in the development. As growth and confidence develop the whistle is used less and less. Training is that time the relationship between dog and handler is forged.

Here is a clip of a wee bit older dog that is being run with little to no whistle. also the angle is a bit better I being in the gallery, gives a better perspective of the pattern that we are looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yn2ImZ15s

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:51 am

Took Jake out for a walk/hunt today, we haven't been out since the beginning of November as I have been more focused on his training than hunting but I figured today I would let him burn some steam off. We saw absolutely nothing but it was a nice crisp morning and he quartered beautifully the whole time. Here's a pic from today:

On another note - I'm always worried about Jake's weight because he's such a scrawny little mutt so today I actually put him on the scale to see what he weighs. He's 36 lbs! At 11 months! The dog is a beast, I guess I had nothing to worry about. He has surpassed his sire who is also very lean like him - Ammo topped out at 34 lbs around 2 years of age. Looks like I'm going to have a big boy once he starts to fill out.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:44 pm

gundogguy wrote:Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly .

This normal in the training phase with (this) a young dog! This quite normal in the development. As growth and confidence develop the whistle is used less and less. Training is that time the relationship between dog and handler is forged.

Here is a clip of a wee bit older dog that is being run with little to no whistle. also the angle is a bit better I being in the gallery, gives a better perspective of the pattern that we are looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yn2ImZ15s[/quote]
Hmmm! thanks Gundogguy, but I learned nothing new in that clip, unless I'm missing something?...around the 1:30 minute mark however , the handler commanded the dog to go off to the right , but the dog went to the left? ..Is this aslo part of the no whistle training?..
As a side note to the original quest for knowledge, Yup! this one has no chance of spacehopping in such short cover, but then I suppose there is no game there anyway?.This one looks like it's running around in circles in front of the handler ,Is this the pattern you all seek over there?..Just asking for clarification?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:35 am

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote:Looking at the clip again?> Gundogguy ,why is your partner giving multiple 'stop whistle' ?..Is this normal in the training phase with this young dog or is there something else I don't see or understand from the clip?...Interested to know why?. Honestly .

This normal in the training phase with (this) a young dog! This quite normal in the development. As growth and confidence develop the whistle is used less and less. Training is that time the relationship between dog and handler is forged.

Here is a clip of a wee bit older dog that is being run with little to no whistle. also the angle is a bit better I being in the gallery, gives a better perspective of the pattern that we are looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yn2ImZ15s

Hmmm! thanks Gundogguy, but I learned nothing new in that clip, unless I'm missing something?...around the 1:30 minute mark however , the handler commanded the dog to go off to the right , but the dog went to the left? ..Is this aslo part of the no whistle training?..
As a side note to the original quest for knowledge, Yup! this one has no chance of spacehopping in such short cover, but then I suppose there is no game there anyway?.This one looks like it's running around in circles in front of the handler ,Is this the pattern you all seek over there?..Just asking for clarification?[/quote]

Actual it was at about 1:48-1:52 the dog short cast on the right side of the handler the handler pushed to the right, the dog continued to the left, for a few yards, then turned back to right and paid a visit to the right wing gun, there was some forced used to acquire that behavior. A very light correction with the e-collar.
In an early vid that I posted the was a similar action of the dog short casting and not paying attention to the whistle, the handler used a voice correction to gain the dogs attention and reestablish the "pattern".
In the training drills that we run and they are very similar across the country, establishing and reinforcing the correct running style is very important. Range and pace is paramount!
Range more than pattern, beater dog action is never going to get it done here in the States.
What you refer to as "spacehopping" we might refer to as animated.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:54 am

I've used a couple of helpers (guns) with a flapping pigeon each to get that 'pattern' - consequentially - enthusiasm to quest the correct direction without any verbal or electricity.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:08 am

polmaise wrote:I've used a couple of helpers (guns) with a flapping pigeon each to get that 'pattern' - consequentially - enthusiasm to quest the correct direction without any verbal or electricity.

I'm sure you have, as have I, it is dog to dog thing each one being a bit different. Our goals are different, though we each enjoy our own processes. Neither are better than the other, they just each suit our needs.
One example would be i really enjoy "place board training" and the behavioral responses that it develops in the dog. Not all American trainers would agree with the concept of the place boards, and that is ok. Our current dog in training because of the place boards has been steady to wing and shot without e-collar since she was 9 months old she is now 17 months she has never broke! She is but one dog out of thousands, all i can say is the proof is in the pudding. Though my last seven spaniels were give or take a bout the same using place boards steadied early which allowed us time to train for our required style of pattern and pace, and at the same time proof the steadiness and proper delivery of the bird.
Enjoy your UK traditions and system it is a fine way to run a dog, as is the US system, to each their own.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:05 am

Which kinda brings me back full circle to the original question Gundogguy ?, Why is necessary to blow continous stop whistle ? Was the young dog in the first clip trained on placeboards? If not then perhaps as you have outlined it may need to be. If it was then surely it ain't gonna 'break' the stop/sit ?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:09 pm

polmaise wrote:Which kinda brings me back full circle to the original question Gundogguy ?, Why is necessary to blow continous stop whistle ? Was the young dog in the first clip trained on placeboards? If not then perhaps as you have outlined it may need to be. If it was then surely it ain't gonna 'break' the stop/sit ?

As stated earlier "this is normal in the training phase with (this) a young dog! This quite normal in the development."
This one training session out of 100's it really does not that big deal to obsess over..call it handler error if you will but whistle use is not that big a deal. If you do not not like the Acme pip whistle do not use them!
The whistle will be eliminated when the dog is fully trained.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:32 pm

gundogguy wrote:
polmaise wrote:Which kinda brings me back full circle to the original question Gundogguy ?, Why is necessary to blow continous stop whistle ? Was the young dog in the first clip trained on placeboards? If not then perhaps as you have outlined it may need to be. If it was then surely it ain't gonna 'break' the stop/sit ?
As stated earlier "this is normal in the training phase with (this) a young dog! This quite normal in the development."
This one training session out of 100's it really does not that big deal to obsess over..call it handler error if you will but whistle use is not that big a deal. If you do not not like the Acme pip whistle do not use them!
The whistle will be eliminated when the dog is fully trained.

I'm not calling it anything ! Just asking ? I thought that maybe it was a better way to get the dog to understand that 'sit means sit' or 'stop means stop' ?..not that I do this process myself ,so I was curious to ''Why'' ? this young dog required so many repeated commands to do the one thing it was doing. Considering that place board training may also have been used prior to this ,that is also why I wanted to learn more from your experience with this.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:27 pm

Here is an inexperienced handler with a dog that has more training he has. The two them are now getting to know each much better.
handler interaction with the dog is essential during this period of time.
The dogs original owner past a way, and has been rehomed with the handler in the video. This about their 4 session in the field together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubF2rP_Qark

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:03 pm

gundogguy wrote:Here is an inexperienced handler with a dog that has more training he has. The two them are now getting to know each much better.
handler interaction with the dog is essential during this period of time.
The dogs original owner past a way, and has been rehomed with the handler in the video. This about their 4 session in the field together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubF2rP_Qark

Thanks for that! I'm sure with a bit more training and getting used to the new handlers way's it will come out right.
I can see the handler interaction is essential especially with a springer on a shot bird.......Be good to see this dog get the mark on it's own with other live game flying off en route ?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:51 am

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote:Here is an inexperienced handler with a dog that has more training he has. The two them are now getting to know each much better.
handler interaction with the dog is essential during this period of time.
The dogs original owner past a way, and has been rehomed with the handler in the video. This about their 4 session in the field together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubF2rP_Qark
Thanks for that! I'm sure with a bit more training and getting used to the new handlers way's it will come out right.
I can see the handler interaction is essential especially with a springer on a shot bird.......Be good to see this dog get the mark on it's own with other live game flying off en route ?

Are you sure you watch the correct vid,that was a Cocker. Having factors such as diversion birds flying off can be arraigned..all it takes is money

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:21 am

I don't think it would matter which clip I seen whether it was a springer or a cocker,the mystery of the multiple stop whistle will remain.
A buddy hinted at the dog being able to distinguish between a stop whistle flush and a stop/stop/stop to indicate a blind retrieve is coming next ,but I'm not buying that.

Different horses for different courses for sure, but they are all horses.
Enjoy your games.

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:15 am

I have seen the "stop" whistle used like that with young dogs that might be under temptation to break. It is just a reminder that gets phased out as the dog becomes more experienced.
Mike

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:21 am

I think it probably comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't do multiple blows, but that is because I never have before so he knows. Sit means sit. Now that's not to say I don't alter it. Especially when hunting and on a wild bird I generally blow the stop whistle louder and longer as he is more tempted to break. When working with pigeons my stop whistle doesn't need to be as pronounced as he seems to know it is training (due to the scent or sound of the pigeon's take off maybe? i don't know).

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:32 am

Cass, if you're going to play at trialing, they also need to hup and be steady to shot for honouring when the bracemate flushes a bird. That's where the Retriev-R trainer I sent you comes in handy when training alone. Handier in other ways too in harmony with your hup whistle. Presumably you've been using it (presuming it works, of course)?

MG

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:26 am

polmaise wrote: A buddy hinted at the dog being able to distinguish between a stop whistle flush and a stop/stop/stop to indicate a blind retrieve is coming next ,but I'm not buying that.

I don't think I "buy that" either unless I have failed to understand something about this training process properly ?
One of the first things any beginner trainer is taught is not to repeat commands .... to do something about it the very first time a dog fails to obey a command.

If I were to give the "Stop" command repeatedly then I could be telling the dog any one of several things.
(A) Ignore the first few stop whistles because he will blow it again.
(B) Ignore it completely for it means nothing.
(C) The stop command is never just one "pip" it is several.
(D) Maybe he wants me to do something but I don't know what yet !

Unless this process can be explained a bit better to me and it then makes sense to me I think I will stick to Stop means Stop.

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:18 am

MJB64 wrote:I have seen the "stop" whistle used like that with young dogs that might be under temptation to break. It is just a reminder that gets phased out as the dog becomes more experienced.
Mike

+1 As I have tried to explain, that is exactly what is going on. the dogs next contact shows the work. The 2nd contact was chopped on my orders' big white pigeon that could prove a real enticement for a young dog. The dog if you recall was deny a retrieve on the 1st contact.
This young dog has not had any brace work, which will begin after the new year. Brace work will include a lot more birds and guns and additional factors for the dog and handler to deal with. Again our brace work is a little different thanwhat some of you might be familiar with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtKweKjMRmY

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:40 pm

I don't think there is a huge difference in training (shaping) spaniels either side of the pond and there is much overlap.
Yes, you guy's tend to let them go wider and the cover can dictate or determine that,but even here, the handler allows the dog to 'take in ground' when it suits but regains pattern/drive and ''workmanlike' style regardless of the ground. Big difference I see is the use of planted birds or released kept birds ,where (we) are predominately training on released game,and therefore gaining more ''nose down'' .
The end game is the flush for a flushing dog and the retrieve is a by product that is occasional in many of our (upland) type shoots ,in trials the 'Hunting' is everything!
I take Gundogguy's point about ''other live game'' being used as distraction as a cost element,as I understand it you guy's also don't have ''Gamekeepers'' , so a game bird being allowed to 'fly off' as a distraction for the use in training can become costly if you are using purchased planted birds!!
Makes it a wee bit artificial for me (personally) and especially if the handler knows where the 'Game is' .

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:01 pm

polmaise wrote:as I understand it you guy's also don't have ''Gamekeepers'' , so a game bird being allowed to 'fly off' as a distraction for the use in training can become costly if you are using purchased planted birds!! ...

Not if you use johnny-house quail or homers.

Makes it a wee bit artificial for me (personally) and especially if the handler knows where the 'Game is' . :wink

"Wee bit artificial" = narrowing one's focus to the dog in front of thyself, makes it more than a wee bit easier to get in a correction...or attitude adjustment.

Likewise, and exponentially so, with birds "shot" in our retriever trials, by the way. We know where they're at, and we hope to heck the dog remembers where they are, too. But if they don't, we're going to handle to the bird, or recall the dog, and send again for the mark on the correct line.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:47 pm

crackerd wrote:
polmaise wrote:as I understand it you guy's also don't have ''Gamekeepers'' , so a game bird being allowed to 'fly off' as a distraction for the use in training can become costly if you are using purchased planted birds!! ...
Not if you use johnny-house quail or homers.

Makes it a wee bit artificial for me (personally) and especially if the handler knows where the 'Game is' . :wink
"Wee bit artificial" = narrowing one's focus to the dog in front of thyself, makes it more than a wee bit easier to get in a correction...or attitude adjustment.

Likewise, and exponentially so, with birds "shot" in our retriever trials, by the way. We know where they're at, and we hope to heck the dog remembers where they are, too. But if they don't, we're going to handle to the bird, or recall the dog, and send again for the mark on the correct line.

MG

Johnny-house Quail or Homers are just not the same ?..great for the shaping or the show?...But just don't beat a Rooster cackling being bumped from the nose

Spaniels ..er flushing dog's are not in retriever trials!...You may want them there?>>> but again...''Knowing they (game) is there!..Is not ''Game shooting'' , mere 'Predicted 'Game shooting' ..In my very humble opinion!...and the dog ain't daft either

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:51 pm

Gotta like that "predicted game shooting," Robt., only I call it training. For spaniels, retrievers and retrieving flushing spaniels.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:18 pm

I'm all for 'Training' MG . but sooner or later you gotta get wet if you are gonna be swimming.
So best start with water.

hMMM! I was reading about them 'Birds on a string' stuff?........Huh!.....s'pose' ..them huntin flushin types will be draggin a wing through the cover next ? :roll:
Just fer training of course!!!

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:07 am

English Springer Spaniel 2013 National Championships are in the books

1st #17 NFC FC Nel's Champagne Lady "Diva"
Owner: James Nelson
Handler: Paul McGagh

2nd #35 FC AFC Springville Buckingham Milo "Milo"
Owner: Jon Van Ingen
Handler: Jon Van Ingen

3rd #87 FC Warrener's Pacific Golden Plover"Violet"
Owner: Vicky Thomas
Handler: Paul McGagh

4th #109 Triple Ridges Leather and Lace "Lacey"
Owner: Donald and Marsha Moore
Handler: Ralph Botti

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:47 am

Here's a recent photo of Loki.