The Spaniel Spot

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:42 am

polmaise wrote:Thought you might like like this one 'Gundogguy' ?.......
Spaniel in a beating line on a commercial shoot. These little 'flusher's' almost never get a retrieve !..
Nice surprise at the end ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNaxpikOvJA

Very Good! Any one not understanding the value of a steady dog should view this video. A part trained or even poorly train dog would have become completely unraveled under the conditions you were working in. Fine grounds well supplied with Munjac as well.
I have just returned from holiday. Had great time in Arizona, however glad to be home.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:44 am

Dunno, Gundogguy - between you, Robt., and Cass, and talk of spaniels on the beating line, unraveling spaniels, traveling spaniels, plenty of muntjac, shooting vacations and saints-preserve-us preserve shooting (Cass...), 'fraid this is about the best composite

of y'all's account that I can conjure up...

MG

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:25 am

gundogguy wrote:
polmaise wrote:Thought you might like like this one 'Gundogguy' ?.......
Spaniel in a beating line on a commercial shoot. These little 'flusher's' almost never get a retrieve !..
Nice surprise at the end ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNaxpikOvJA
Very Good! Any one not understanding the value of a steady dog should view this video. A part trained or even poorly train dog would have become completely unraveled under the conditions you were working in. Fine grounds well supplied with Munjac as well.
I have just returned from holiday. Had great time in Arizona, however glad to be home.

Wait, you were in this video Polmaise? I thought it was Nick Ridley's video...

I'm not sure I would enjoy this. I like to get away from people when I'm hunting and enjoy the quiet and serenity of a crisp autumn day. Maybe my view is warped after hunting alone for years. But I understand circumstances are different there, and I'm sure I'd take this over nothing.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:48 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Got the computer working temporarily - hopefully long enough to post these pictures. Great day at Bird's Eye View on Monday with the dog. Me and my buddy went together and paid for 8 birds. We missed one and one must've flown off before we got to it but as we were walking across the field to take another run at some different cover Jake's nose caught the wind and his head snapped to the left and he ran about 40 yards into the bush - emerging with a crippled hen that must've been shot and never found on the weekend. I dispatched her quickly and we ended up with 7 birds. Great first time! It was a lot of excitement for Jake and made me realize after a long hunting season we need to get back on track with training as his steadiness was an issue early on in the hunt. All in all a good day with a good dog and good friend.

Well good! Your getting the lil dog out for some stimulating work!. Having managed 2 different game farms for some 20 years the folks with the dogs are the lifeblood of the business.
As far as proofing your training a game farm is a great place to provide with information as to what your dog is doing and what it might be coming up a little short on!
always remember what you condone in your dogs behavior you own!.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:18 pm

I took this young lad at 9 month old to his first walk up shoot the other day hunting in line with others. Some ain't ready until next season for game ,but this one was

.
He never seen a woodcock before let alone flush one or retrieve it,but he did .Finished with a simple handle on a hen pheasant that was a blind to him.
It was a training day in the company of other experienced dog handlers ,both retrievers and spaniels .

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:19 pm

He is just a pup! so we used the lunch break to talk tactics on what we done right and what we will do later

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:10 pm

That's a great picture! ( 3rd one) Thanks.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:17 am

It's January- February and the Spaniel trial spring trial season has begun. Texas is the traditional starting place for the sport.
From the pictures received it looks like Spanieler's have some found some very nice winter cover to run their dogs. Nothing like good cover and good birds to make good dogs.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:36 am

Well we have been getting hit hard with old man winter the past week. We've been averaging 10+ cm every day from Monday to now. Unable to train but Jake has become real good at supervising me shoveling the driveway - I think he could really make it as a government worker.

kiwijakefeb2.jpg

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:08 pm

The winter is getting long and I find myself dreaming of autumn colors and fluorescent color roosters! I Started FF with the pup this week as my "mid-winter project" and so far so good.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:27 am

Good luck! I think us spanielers have it made when it comes to FF... spaniels are so soppy that they figure it out real quick in order to avoid pressure. Not like them hard headed pointers and labs LOL. Keep us updated with the pup's progress.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:22 am

mnaj_springer wrote:The winter is getting long and I find myself dreaming of autumn colors and fluorescent color roosters! I Started FF with the pup this week as my "mid-winter project" and so far so good.

Winter time is just a great time to take care of mechanics. You should be ready to proof your work this spring on shot flyers and bird work! Good for you!

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm

Subject matter and technique one of the best Paul French trailers for their new video on the 2015 Spaniel National Champs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvsyJ-vjwSI

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:34 pm

For the pros here, I have a hypothetical question... What would you expect to get done in 6 weeks with a 15 month old dog that has some (but not solid) obedience training, lots of drive, is line steady, and biddable?

Oh, and also bird intro and gun intros have been done.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:49 am

mnaj_springer wrote:For the pros here, I have a hypothetical question... What would you expect to get done in 6 weeks with a 15 month old dog that has some (but not solid) obedience training, lots of drive, is line steady, and biddable?

Oh, and also bird intro and gun intros have been done.

With all due respect i have a hypothetical answer, in the form of a question? What are your standards and what is your goal of achievement for this 15 month old dog? Some training, lots of drive? is line steady? and biddable? It will take about a week for a Pro to sort the why and well of those questions and depending on your goals where to start with the dog. Depending on what your goals, yard steadiness should be attainable, however that would be wholly depending on the dogs retrieving skills, with delivery being the most important part of the equation. If the retrieving issues are present some time might be needed to clean those items up. The recall command and the basic retrieving behaviors must be really solid before advance training takes place. Without that good solid foundation issues will persist through out the dog's life.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:48 am

gundogguy wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:For the pros here, I have a hypothetical question... What would you expect to get done in 6 weeks with a 15 month old dog that has some (but not solid) obedience training, lots of drive, is line steady, and biddable?

Oh, and also bird intro and gun intros have been done.
With all due respect i have a hypothetical answer, in the form of a question? What are your standards and what is your goal of achievement for this 15 month old dog? Some training, lots of drive? is line steady? and biddable? It will take about a week for a Pro to sort the why and well of those questions and depending on your goals where to start with the dog. Depending on what your goals, yard steadiness should be attainable, however that would be wholly depending on the dogs retrieving skills, with delivery being the most important part of the equation. If the retrieving issues are present some time might be needed to clean those items up. The recall command and the basic retrieving behaviors must be really solid before advance training takes place. Without that good solid foundation issues will persist through out the dog's life.

That's why I posed this as a hypothetical question, hoping I could hear a "best guess" or "approximation" type answer, rather than "it depends." I understand there are a lot of variables involved, and I wasn't expecting anything too specific, just what a pro would generally expect to get done.

But for the sake of "it depends" let's say the dog parades a little on the return of a retrieve (about 5 feet past the handler then to his side) and drops it at the handlers feet.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:05 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
gundogguy wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:For the pros here, I have a hypothetical question... What would you expect to get done in 6 weeks with a 15 month old dog that has some (but not solid) obedience training, lots of drive, is line steady, and biddable?

Oh, and also bird intro and gun intros have been done.
With all due respect i have a hypothetical answer, in the form of a question? What are your standards and what is your goal of achievement for this 15 month old dog? Some training, lots of drive? is line steady? and biddable? It will take about a week for a Pro to sort the why and well of those questions and depending on your goals where to start with the dog. Depending on what your goals, yard steadiness should be attainable, however that would be wholly depending on the dogs retrieving skills, with delivery being the most important part of the equation. If the retrieving issues are present some time might be needed to clean those items up. The recall command and the basic retrieving behaviors must be really solid before advance training takes place. Without that good solid foundation issues will persist through out the dog's life.
That's why I posed this as a hypothetical question, hoping I could hear a "best guess" or "approximation" type answer, rather than "it depends." I understand there are a lot of variables involved, and I wasn't expecting anything too specific, just what a pro would generally expect to get done.

But for the sake of "it depends" let's say the dog parades a little on the return of a retrieve (about 5 feet past the handler then to his side) and drops it at the handlers feet.

" If the retrieving issues are present some time might be needed to clean those items up. The recall command and the basic retrieving behaviors must be really solid before advance training takes place. Without that good solid foundation issues will persist through out the dog's life."
]
When training my dog or someone else's I have two caveat's that are always on my mind. 1st if" " If I condone a certain behavior I own It" In other words if I allow a dog to parade on the recall, chances are I will have issues to deal with when we go on to more advanced training. I must be diligent and clean that up before moving on to more complicated behaviors. The 2nd is I have to be fair to the dog. example how can i expect my dog to be more precise than I am. If I do not take the time and tide (time and money) to show the dog how to finish a retrieve how can I expect the dog give me that behavior. Dogs only change because we humans change. A dog can not change his own behavior.
Considering recall and mouth habits will be a life long proposition, the real students of this game constantly proof their dogs behaviors in these area's, always working toward a more perfect behavior.
However once you these basics solid, the sky's the limit as to what the dog can be trained to do! You should have a ton of good spaniel folks where you live to assit or even do this for you. Morgan Haglin would be one right off the top of me head that would give you good service in this area.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:12 am

gundogguy wrote:Subject matter and technique one of the best Paul French trailers for their new video on the 2015 Spaniel National Champs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvsyJ-vjwSI

Nice dog work

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:37 pm

gundogguy wrote:Subject matter and technique one of the best Paul French trailers for their new video on the 2015 Spaniel National Champs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvsyJ-vjwSI

Why don't we have this for US trials? Just curious.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:15 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
gundogguy wrote:Subject matter and technique one of the best Paul French trailers for their new video on the 2015 Spaniel National Champs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvsyJ-vjwSI
Why don't we have this for US trials? Just curious.

If you are referring to Video taping of Trials and Championships. There are a number of reasons why. And all are valid.
Video content is very hard to capture at the range US dogs work at and in the cover a large number of trials usually get run in. Tough to see what is going on.
I have done a lot of personal video taping and it is really difficult. I have try to video two all-age trials, when getting to editing there was just not much to see.
I have had some success with puppy stakes but that was only because of the use of light cover and chukars which helped that out. I very rarely video tape late summer or fall training sessions because of cover density, unless I know we are running a few dogs in lighter cover. One of the biggest complaints by cameraman is they cannot get the dog in the frame or even see the dog.
Expense is another really big issue. Paul French video's are quite pricey.

puppy stake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAn3V6i5kAg

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:24 am

That pup sure had a lot of Go! Great video Hal!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:05 am

A good video and a good pup with a lot of "go."

Bill T.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:09 pm

Trekmoor wrote:A good video and a good pup with a lot of "go."

Bill T.

CDN_Cocker wrote:That pup sure had a lot of Go! Great video Hal!

Not sure who the pup is or who the handler is, used this video to show some of the challenges in taping event in the field. I had taken quite a bit of footage from the Open AA earlier in the day cover was heavier, Open dogs run bigger and faster and in heavier cover really difficult to take good video of the action due to conditions.
On two different occasions a few years back the Outdoor Channel(Cable TV)try to get some footage of Spaniel trials, and their Pro camera guys had an awful time getting much footage that made any sense. For the viewer if you understood trials you knew what was happening if you were a casual observer, you would have had no idea what was going on other than every once in a while a bird went up a gun went bang and a few minutes later a dog came into view finishing a retrieve.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:37 am

Gundogguy, gotta get ESS bylaws to allow Go-Pro's as optional wear (for the dogs) in FTs.

MG

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:08 am

crackerd wrote:Gundogguy, gotta get ESS bylaws to allow Go-Pro's as optional wear (for the dogs) in FTs.

MG

Although that might seem like a solution,I have seen one to many vids of dog with the Go Pro attached to them not very good stuff. In those attempts the camera is just to close to the action. After 30 seconds or so land marks I would get a little dizzy. Even with the GO Pro attached to the handler the video would be very difficult to watch and difficult to follow.
The real key to good video of Spaniel events is short cover, knee deep, Here is another example of a ESS puppy stake in either Montana or Wyoming, Garry Riddle at the handle his Angel dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsUehS6X85o

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:16 am

Personally I don't mind when the handler wears a GoPro in a video... Most tend to show enough action, but then again, I know what I'm looking for. We could try to rig up those "spider cams" that they use for overhead shots in the NFL!

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:10 am

I was semi-joshing about Go-Pro, but the overhead camera on a wire would be outstanding - but way, way prohibitive in price. Plus, it might got shot out of commission just after the opening "cast-off!"

MG

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:22 am

Awww money.... It enslaves us all! That would be one heck of a camera shot to see the bird come right at the screen and then BOOM!

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:51 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Awww money.... It enslaves us all! That would be one heck of a camera shot to see the bird come right at the screen and then BOOM!

Personally I don't mind when the handler wears a GoPro in a video... Most tend to show enough action, but then again, I know what I'm looking for. We could try to rig up those "spider cams" that they use for overhead shots in the NFL!

[/quote]

Try that done that bought the farm. My plan was to buy a pricey drone copter camera combo and video tape dogs in the field (DJI Phantom) google that they are sweet! I came within a frogs hair of ordering a Phantom, but did not because of the results after a small field test>
As a test bought a rather inexpensive drone and launched over the training field, Brought out 2 old spaniels for exercise break. Took 'em a New York second to spy the machine and off they went. They certainly got their exercise chasing the new "Bird' in town. Two old spaniels that had never broke on a bird in their careers were reduce to helicopter chasing mad dogs in a matter of moments. "Eye in the skye" would be a great tool but only over your dogs not mine. I'll stick to my Contour Roam hat cam, thank-you!
Personally at this point I do not care if we ever do video a trial I use my video work for training and archive information about what a dog is doing at each level of training. That's good for me.
If you are inclined to purchase a Paul French Video remember to request the USA copy UK TV works on a different format than ours here in the states.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:53 pm

crackerd wrote:I was semi-joshing about Go-Pro, but the overhead camera on a wire would be outstanding - but way, way prohibitive in price. Plus, it might got shot out of commission just after the opening "cast-off!"

MG

MG How far away can your guys see the geese coming when they are in the blind with You? Thats how far away they could see a over head cam!!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:55 pm

I wear a GoPro almost every time I go hunting. You will notice I never post videos of my hunts... I have seen some awesome GoPro footage, but I have never taken it myself hahahaha.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:32 pm

That's because you're a grouse hunter! Professional cameramen can't even film that!

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:25 am

Update: FF has been going well. We haven't run into any issues that we couldn't solve. This process has reminded me just how smart she is. Very soon we'll be transferring what has been learned to bumpers, then birds.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:25 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Update: FF has been going well. We haven't run into any issues that we couldn't solve. This process has reminded me just how smart she is. Very soon we'll be transferring what has been learned to bumpers, then birds.

Why did you FF your dog?

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:15 pm

UplandJim, good question! Her retrieve was pretty good to start, but I wanted to clean up her delivery (she would drop bumpers/birds at my feet). So now she's a bit more professional, holding at a heel until I take it. I also did it for some of the fringe benefits, like good mouth habits.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:11 am

A better question would be why wouldn't you?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:23 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:A better question would be why wouldn't you?

Cass, are you planning on posing that "better question" to the British Empire? If so, you're likely to get plenty of prevaricating, or maybe I should say equivocating answers.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:28 pm

crackerd wrote: are you planning on posing that "better question" to the British Empire? If so, you're likely to get plenty of prevaricating, or maybe I should say equivocating answers.

MG

What?..Like 'Force Hold' or 'Force Fetch' ?..or as in 'The Empire Strikes Back' ? "[Using the Force, Yoda effortlessly frees the X-Wing from the bog]
Luke: I don't, I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:10 pm

Polmaise you just made my day lol

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:40 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Polmaise you just made my day lol

. At least one of us is happy

I have had two cocker's and a Springer that have a zest for chasing deer :roll: .....

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:03 pm

polmaise wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:Polmaise you just made my day lol
. At least one of us is happy
I have had two cocker's and a Springer that have a zest for chasing deer :roll: .....

Isn't this where I came in, in the first place?

I keep telling you if you "con" them dogs into thinking they caught the deer, or at least caught "part" of it, without having to chase in the first place,

you wouldn't have to worry about force-breaking them off deer. And it'd cut down on your dogfood bill and give them some natural dental hygiene help without having to pay a vet to provide it.

However, I also know, courtesy of Mr. Maytag, of another method that's more mechanical in nature and is guaranteed to have everlasting effect at breaking dogs from deer harrassing.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:08 pm

Yea, But the dog's ain't mine MG.
I just get them when they have done the deed :roll:

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:25 pm

polmaise wrote:Yea, But the dog's ain't mine MG.
I just get them when they have done the deed :roll:

I can relate to that. I brought a couple of sheep chasers home from the UK. Both went on to make champion. No sheep of any consequence here in the states.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:28 pm

Just don't get them chasing these critters ,like this mornings encounter on a walk with 'young un's'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQLaXlcg4-U

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:05 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:A better question would be why wouldn't you?

Please elaborate Cass.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:30 pm

UplandJim wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:A better question would be why wouldn't you?
Please elaborate Cass.

I can't speak for Cass, but I see very few drawbacks (if any) in addition to all the benefits I mentioned before. Plus, the regiment of a FF program helps dogs become better learners.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:42 am

mnaj_springer wrote:
UplandJim wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:A better question would be why wouldn't you?
Please elaborate Cass.
I can't speak for Cass, but I see very few drawbacks (if any) in addition to all the benefits I mentioned before. Plus, the regiment of a FF program helps dogs become better learners.

Can't speak for Cass either, Though MNaJ is spot on. At face value FF looks like a way to teach a dog to delivered items correctly..to hand. Without that the hand delivery advanced behaviors become impossible for the dog to achieve. Doubles, stand alone marks, diversion birds, and blinds to name a few. There are ways to develop that delivery to hand without FF but the relations ship with the pup has to be done in a very responsible manner early in the pups life. Our friends in UK have done it for years.
FF also teaches a dog "How to learn". The reason I usually take my own dogs through the process just as soon as the adult teeth settle in. 5-7 months old pup is much simpler to train than the older dog that has acquired self taught avoidance's. Try a two year Chessie that just says NO! I digress..
By starting at a very young age I have a young pup that is ready for some much more training in advance areas.
My avatar dog Zeta was FF at 5months steady to wing shot at 7-8 months and a finalist in the 2014 Nat Champs before she was 2 1/2. The whole process just jump starts the dogs performance career.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:59 am

Winningest of the 900 posts made to date on this thread, gundogguy. Spaniel spot-on, indeed - Bravo!

MG

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:01 pm

crackerd wrote:Winningest of the 900 posts made to date on this thread, gundogguy. Spaniel spot-on, indeed - Bravo!

MG

Thank-you Crackerd, the checks in the mail!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:29 am

gundogguy wrote:

Can't speak for Cass either, Though MNaJ is spot on. At face value FF looks like a way to teach a dog to delivered items correctly..to hand. Without that the hand delivery advanced behaviors become impossible for the dog to achieve. Doubles, stand alone marks, diversion birds, and blinds to name a few. There are ways to develop that delivery to hand without FF but the relations ship with the pup has to be done in a very responsible manner early in the pups life. Our friends in UK have done it for years.
FF also teaches a dog "How to learn". The reason I usually take my own dogs through the process just as soon as the adult teeth settle in. 5-7 months old pup is much simpler to train than the older dog that has acquired self taught avoidance's. Try a two year Chessie that just says NO! I digress..
By starting at a very young age I have a young pup that is ready for some much more training in advance areas.
My avatar dog Zeta was FF at 5months steady to wing shot at 7-8 months and a finalist in the 2014 Nat Champs before she was 2 1/2. The whole process just jump starts the dogs performance career.

[/quote]

Excellent post. You can speak for me anytime you'd like Hal lol