The Spaniel Spot

[gundogguy]

s . (Please look down on me kindly, ED W )

MG

Ed W is looking down kindly, that why are paths have crossed!

[jhorak]

They'll make you think they're the most well-behaved and easy to train dogs in the world until they get to their second season of hunting. At that point they will decide they now know more than you do and have no need for your intervention in their hunting pursuits. Just wait, it'll happen Jake is at the age right now where he doesn't know anything, and you are the source of all things good in his life, as well as his source of confidence. When they get older, they get more confident, and realize that they can have fun 50 yards away from you. It's just new challenges that are easily overcome, but can still be frustrating. I believe you're using the e-collar which will probably hide a lot of those issues, while the collar is on anyway.

Interesting to see if this happens with Jake, since he's getting trained nonslip by Cass (with Kraka's guidance) via a retriever program, and that kind of rebelliousness does not happen with retrievers even though they have their fun at much greater distances. Nonslip training augmented with the e-collar doesn't mask or hide anything, it's integral to that training program, and in my experience, it's also very good for a flushing spaniel because it's also obedience-based.

A questing or quartering pattern inevitably falls under the heading of obedience, and the pip-pip on your Acme 210.5 is a come about command just like the single blast means to stop for gundogs and three blasts commands them to come in. Any spaniel can come unsteady and most certainly any can also "learn" if it gets by with punching out, there's a wide, wide world out there to explore (and have fun in so doing). Good obedience changes all that. Retrievers don't have "sophomore slumps" or "the terrible twos," and spaniels getting the kind of training Jake's lucked into needn't be overcome by that sort of thing either.

MG

It will be interesting to hear what happens with Jake. I understand that you're very big on non-slip training, but I think my vocabulary must be a little bit off. My understanding of non-slip retrievers was that they remained a heel until sent for a retrieve, and then, if necessary, are capable of being handled to the retrieve. I understand there is a lot of obedience and control that goes into that training. But, there is no "questing" that happens with those dogs (again, just my understanding, which may be wrong). From what I'm reading in Cass' posts, what he is doing while hunting with Jake is not non-slip retrieving, but rather letting his dog hunt, and then hopefully sit on the flush. I know from experience that training a dog to be steady while hunting is nearly impossible. If it's real hunting, half the time the cover is too thick to see the dog even when ten yards away. It is not a sterile training environment, and the dog will begin to take some liberties unless Cass is more interested in training the dog than shooting birds. From his post, I think he's out there to hunt with his dog, and while training is important to him, so is hunting with his dog. More power to him, he should be enjoying his dog.

As to a Spaniel program, there are many resources that give guidance for every phase of the training, but not a step-by-step that you're referring to. Frankly, I'm not convinced that a program like that would be beneficial to me-- all of my dogs have different personalities, developed at different speeds, and have different weaknesses. Wouldn't a hard and fast program like that deprive dogs of the training needed to overcome their weak points? Or are the programs able to adapt to different dogs?

Can you give me a better idea of how your non-slip training is beneficial for a dog that is supposed to be quartering with high-intensity? Is it that they, in a more generic way, learn to be obedient to all commands, or is it indeed a pragmatic way of achieving a nice questing pattern?

[crackerd]

As to a Spaniel program, there are many resources that give guidance for every phase of the training, but not a step-by-step that you're referring to. Frankly, I'm not convinced that a program like that would be beneficial to me-- all of my dogs have different personalities, developed at different speeds, and have different weaknesses. Wouldn't a hard and fast program like that deprive dogs of the training needed to overcome their weak points? Or are the programs able to adapt to different dogs?

Can you give me a better idea of how your non-slip training is beneficial for a dog that is supposed to be quartering with high-intensity? Is it that they, in a more generic way, learn to be obedient to all commands, or is it indeed a pragmatic way of achieving a nice questing pattern?

Maybe there's ambiguity as to the meaning of nonslip. For the Brits it means a Lab walking at heel at a field trial or on a driven shoot until sent for a retrieve. For (some) Scots it may mean essentially same, but also may include what it means to "our side:" a dog that goes when sent, as sent, but otherwise is nonslip in performing, i.e., steady in a blind, or whilst honoring another dog's retrieve. As for "learn(ing) to be obedient to all commands," nonslip really all boils down to Sit means sit, the most basic tenet of retriever training. All else springs forth from that simple command and execution of it - for every retriever program that I'm familiar with.

Simply sitting, or hupping, on command takes nothing away from a dog's desire, or energy, or independence - that's a canard. Nor has it any deleterious effect on dogs of different personalities, speeds, intensities, etc. The control in a nonslip dog is inculcated through a program that again has the sit or hup command as a cornerstone. It's a "hard and fast program" only in how it appears on paper - the step-by stuff is plenty adaptive for dogs of different temperaments, sizes, and breeds. When adeptly imparted by a trainer, it takes nothing out of a gundog, including any tamping down of or inhibitions for a quartering pattern; if anything a force-based retriever program may instill a stronger work ethic in the dog, as in working for and with you, as in cooperation.

I don't need any of that for putting a quartering pattern in a spaniel or gundog, but I can make great use of it in putting the quartering pattern - under control - in the dog. Quartering comes naturally to most spaniels, for those it doesn't, there's the American way - charging gun to gun, initially, then having their noses, the wind, and repetition carry them the rest of the way, 'til they get into the woods and tailor the pattern to fit "the game." Be it flushing grouse or rabbits. Then, if it's a mixed bag (a "gunning" McNab maybe ) they can go sit at your feet in the blind for nonslip work, patiently, until the call comes



to get on with "other" business.

A Boykin needs to run straight lines for the majority of its "dedicated" work, which is as a retriever picking up multiple marks, but as a 25-pound spaniel with as "hot" a quartering pattern as just about any cocker I've seen, the nonslip work in the beginning - Sit means sit - makes it possible to do both with pizzazz. Same with the MH Sussex above - MH at about 17-18 months - not the hottest pattern, but you would be surprised at the pace - and perseverance. Again, done right, nonslip training takes nothing out of the dog, the spaniel, and even brings earlier sharper focus to their work - whatever that work is, whether questing for game or retrieving it (or "running" water blinds to get that game whilst under your control).

Understand none of the above - multiples, water work, blinds - applies to nor takes place in (our) spaniel field trials, so there's perhaps an inclination to say "Why do it, then?" with nonslip training. Couldn't blame you for that. Just saying that if you did it, the results might make for a more dependable gundog in a number of ways, control afield being one of them.

MG

[CDN_Cocker]

Just my 2 cents - not that its worth much as this is my first gun dog and I do not trial but this is what I've seen... By doing the retriever work with Jake I am much more in control of him. He still goes like a bat out of heck and hasn't hindered him at all. He is a very intense pup with a lot of speed and highly animated. I have been hunting him quite a bit since the season opened, mainly as a convenience type thing. I completely agree with Jordan on it not being a sterile training environment and not ideal, but I live in town and don't have access to birds all that often so I have been using wild birds in their place. The next step in Jake's training is going to be training a formal quartering pattern which I know i will have to do in a field with pigeons and a helper but for right now he naturally patterns with the wind and turns on the whistle so I'm okay with that - my main focus has been getting him into wild birds. I love hunting with him but our hunting sessions are more training than anything. I keep a close eye on him and am constantly working on casting, the stop whistle, and getting him to sit on the flush. The e-collar has helped greatly with this. When Jake bumps a bird up I immediately whistle and nick if he does not sit right away. Then if I have a shot (which after doing those first 2 things I rarely do) I will take it but only once his butt is on the ground. Like Jordan says, sometimes I cannot see him so when this is the case I whistle-nick-"SIT!" and if I can get to a position where I see him I will fire a shot in the air. If not, i will recall him and cast him off the opposite side and move on. I will admit the other day he flushed a woodcock right across in front of me and I didn't even think, just blew the stop whistle and fired at the bird. After realizing I missed I looked over and Jake was sitting 15 yards away from me watching the bird fly off over a small swampy area. I wouldn't chock that one up to training, I'd say I just got lucky on that one, but at least it let me know he is learning that when I shoot his butt needs to be in the leaves. I love hunting but it really hasn't got a thing to do with what I put in the bag (heck, I love deer hunting and all I've seen are elk for the past 7 years but I still go! hahaha). I just enjoy being outside and I love being with a dog. Before Jake, I'd take the dachshund hunting (not bad on a rabbit if she stumbles on the scent but she's more of a trail walker hahaha). My highlight of hunting is watching the dog work. I think if I get the knack of this dog training thing down I would love to get into the dog games - that would probably become an obsession for me.

Anyways, I went off on a huge tangent there but my point of this whole thing was supposed to be that through doing nonslip retriever training with someone who knows what they're doing it has helped me greatly get a handle on Jake. He is a fast-paced, hard charging pup and was at the point where he was becoming a menace before I started working him through a program. Now he's still fast-paced and hard charging, but those big floppy things on the sides of his head actually work now. I haven't even taken him out duck hunting yet so you would think that the retriever work wouldn't come into play that much but it has just set such a solid base for everything. I can stop him where ever, cast him where ever, and it hasn't affected that spaniel patterning - he isn't looking to me constantly for direction, but if I hit the whistle you better believe he's spinning into a sit to see what's up. I have only shot 2 birds over him (we go out 2 or 3 times a week) just so he knew what he was after initially, but when sent for the retrieves on both there was no worry about whether or not he'd pick it up... I knew he would. Just like in training, he was sent and found the retrieve. The first time it was behind him and he was sent on a "Back" and he spun around, jumped over the fence, found it, picked it and came back over the fence with it. The second time he couldn't mark it so I sent him out, stopped him across from it, and sent him with an "Over" and bam! He found the bird and raced back with it. It was perfect both times.

I realize that spaniel trainers use some different methods and if all you had to do to compete in trials was follow a good retriever program then thats what everyone would do. Obviously that's not the case as spaniels do require a bit of a different approach and to do well in their games they need to learn certain things and to do it in a certain way. But for someone who is new to gun dogs, especially spaniels that have high drive, high energy and unreal speed following a retriever program has helped me a ton. And I think that if I ever attempt to run Jake in a test or trial, his base that he has had in retriever work will help me moving forward, even if I have to modify some things for those events.

[gundogguy]

My only contention is the same geometry of the game comes into play on a quartering pattern, (Please look down on me kindly, ED W )

MG

Well lets take a look at that contention. Mty contention Quartering is not geometric. Quartering is only important to the degree your dog does not quarter. Covering the course is what has to happen, quartering is the term that most use to describe the ability to cover the course properly leaving no ground un hunted. It in it's practice is about helping the dog learn how to use the wind as it covers the course. Bird finding is still the name of the game, either through foot scent or body scent, it is the dog that covers the most ground efficiently that has the greater odds in finding game. It is not about blindly casting back and forth "like a windshield wiper". if we take a spaniel that has a high degree of intuitive "quartering" built into his genetic code and reinforce that talent with the use of birds, gunners and/or e-collar if necessary, we in affect use that indirect pressure to diminish the behavior of punching out of gun range. The conditions of the day will dictate more about how a dog covers the course. I cannot tell you how many times I have run training on particular piece of ground one day, to return and train again another, and the same dogs will cover the course differently each time with similar results, they find bird they are steady they get a retrieve depending on how I want them to play wind conditions, humidity, temperature, the effect of the upland dog and it's actions are very random . Random is not a geometric concept. That is why there is no formula for making a spaniel in the upland

Here is a partial list Of non-slip retrieving systems

American Hunting/Test/Trial
*Mike Lardy-Total Retriever Training (DVD/Hard Copy Series)
*Rick Stawski-Fowl Dawgs (DVD Series)
*Evan Graham-SmartWorks (DVD Series/book series)
*Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock-Problems and Solutions/Training Basics (DVD)
*Chris Akin-Duck Dog Basics (DVD)
*George Hickox-Upland & Retriever Training (DVD Series)
*Butch Goodwin -Retrievers from the Inside Out. (CD/Hard Copy)
*Bill Hillmann -Training a Retriever Puppy (DVD)
*James Spencer-Retriever Train Series (Hard Copy)
*Tom Dokken-Retriever Training (Hard Copy)
*Rex Carr/Dave Rorem-Art /Science of Handling Retrievers (DVD/Hard Copy Set) & Carr Training Seminar (DVD Set)
*Shawn Dustin-Retriever Fever (DVD Series)
*Jim Dobbs-TriTronics Retriever Training (Hard Copy) & Trained Retrieve I&II (DVD)
*Richard Wolters-Water Dog, Gun Dog, Game Dog (Hard Copy)
*Tom Quinn's "The Working Retriever" (Hardcopy)
*Mike Gould's "The Labrador Shooting Dog" (Hardcopy)

I have borrowed many concepts from this group over the years
There are more these are just a few and in reality they all deal the mathematics and geometry of the sport.

Lets see to make a upland flushing spaniel:

Chuck Goodall wrote 2 books The reason the breed in this country is where it's at today and Springer's are in good shape. His influence is very strong
Jim Spencer a retriever trainer wrote one and Jim is Good Guy
and Ken Roebuk wrote a book did a short video Ken was Ok "he was cop from Leeds" He study under Eddie Griffin of Flint Mountain
Talbot Radcliff wrote one Though he put his name to H W Carlton's classic "Breaking spaniels for sport and trial" A real pain in the 8ss
There maybe few more but not many!

Of course as a gun I have always felt that spaniels were more about Trigonometry than most of the other breeds, in fact I have often talked about the "floating trapezoid' that the spaniel and the gun have influence over, but will we leave that for another time. Got go run dog!

[CDN_Cocker]

I liked your post Hal especially about "quartering". Ever since I picked up Jake, Jim K. has always said "don't think quartering, think patterning". He is very against the use of the word quartering. His biggest advice to me (we tend to shoot the breeze over the phone a fair amount) was not to be looking for that windshield wiper pattern unless the wind is coming straight at you. Think "patterning with the wind", which will look different depending on the wind. For a long time I didn't quite grasp it but from being in the woods with Jake a lot lately I definitely understand what he means. Sometimes Jake will be covering ground in an odd fashion but when I stop and really see which way the wind is going, its not odd at all - he's working in a way that he can keep the wind along the side of his face. Sometimes this is more back and forth like "quartering" but sometimes he swings way out and works back into me if that makes sense. I think I'm lucky as Jake has a very naturally ingrained tendency to pattern correctly, regardless of my shortcomings as a trainer. At first there were times when I was frustrated as he wasn't working the way I wanted in front of me but every time he puts up a bird, so obviously the dog knows better hahaha.

[crackerd]

Great stuff, gunddogguy, keep it comin' (as if seancing with Ed W. - don't know how he felt about the authors you cited, but I'm simpatico with your every critique, especially the Metropolitan copper )

MG

[UplandJim]

Great stuff, gunddogguy, keep it comin' (as if seancing with Ed W. - don't know how he felt about the authors you cited, but I'm simpatico with your every critique, especially the Metropolitan copper )

MG

crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just an honest inquiry here. pm if you'd like.

Thanks

[polmaise]

crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just and honest inquiry here.

Thanks

I personally liked the quirky comment rather than any intent
I can't see crackered or any other Bone Fide' gundog man disliking anyone

[UplandJim]

Great stuff, gunddogguy, keep it comin' (as if seancing with Ed W. - don't know how he felt about the authors you cited, but I'm simpatico with your every critique, especially the Metropolitan copper )

MG

crackerd, I have to ask, just for curiosity's sake, why do you dislike Ken Roebuck so much? Just an honest inquiry here. pm if you'd like.

Thanks

[gundogguy]

Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc

Not known at the time, but our own Springerdude was on the judging panel Sunday at the Fox River test. You had a tough weekend I'm sure, thanks for your contributions

Hal

[crackerd]

Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc

Outstanding, Gunddogguy - can you please post this (including photos) to your other (UK) spaniel haunt where they will be most impressed by a working fieldie? The HRC title particularly, bravo to Ms. Bilinsky and all involved! - and really digging on the water entry photo.

MG

[SpringerDude]

Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc

Not known at the time, but our own Springerdude was on the judging panel Sunday at the Fox River test. You had a tough weekend I'm sure, thanks for your contributions

Hal

Karen did a nice job with Tai on Sunday. It was nice to meet her and see her Field Spaniels run. These dogs have some fun and run in them and cover ground quickly and nicely. I am sure that Hal will agree that Tai is worthy of a Master Title.

MG, I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.

[SpringerDude]

I had the pleasure of judging the Fox River Valley Field Spaniel AKC Spaniel Hunt Test this past weekend in Ottawa, Wi. As with any AKC Spaniel Hunt Test, any eligible dogs can enter. So, there were several breeds represented at the test: English Springers, English Cockers, Field Spaniels, Boykin Spaniels, American Water Spaniels, Clumber Spaniels, Airedale Terriers, Golden Retrievers, Curly Coat Retrievers. It was a fun weekend.

Since I was not judging the Master level on Saturday, I entered my dog Josie to see what she would do and how she would act being on a road trip. Well, we got her 2nd Master Pass.

[crackerd]

I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.

Tim, I think you're right on, I got carried away with the word "Grand" in the immediate aftermath of the fall HRC Grand and thought, Wow, a fieldie GHRCH! - Grand Hunting Retriever Champion. The show stuff I associate with UKC, guess what you'd call the parent org. of HRC. Wonder if Gundogguy can tell us if the dog's also an AKC Ch. (show title) in addition to the MH?

Congratulations on your judging and master pass accomplishments.

MG

[gundogguy]

Here is an atta girl and you go girl for Karen Bilinsky and her Field Spaniel Mye Tai. Finishing the requirements for Master Hunter title. Tai Karen's 2 Master dog, Paige being the first and mother of Tai. Tai also became the first Master Hunter Grand champion Fieldie in North America.
Good job Karen it has been a great ride for all of us here at Justamuc

Not known at the time, but our own Springerdude was on the judging panel Sunday at the Fox River test. You had a tough weekend I'm sure, thanks for your contributions

Hal

Congrats on the MH leg your knocking 'em down one after the other. Good going!


Karen did a nice job with Tai on Sunday. It was nice to meet her and see her Field Spaniels run. These dogs have some fun and run in them and cover ground quickly and nicely. I am sure that Hal will agree that Tai is worthy of a Master Title.

MG, I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.

Congrates on the gaining another MH leg your knocking 'em down right in order good going. She really is the reincarnated Pie dog by her looks any She bring a tear to Don's eye
if he ever saw her!!


Right-on TB I cannot tell you how many birds I shot for Karen and her dogs over the years. I started MaiTai when she 5months and absolute talent then and today a well.
I have really posture hard with Karen to go Canadian and run in trials where the breed is accepted. I'm sure Karen ran her Wyatt dog under you in the Junior, another talent in her stable of good solid dogs
However Karen's Fieldies live a rather busy life Her Paige dog, mother of Mai Tai is ""Ch Catera's Simply Irresistible VCD2 RE TDX MH AJP NFP" and
Mai Tai is "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF"" some times with her schedule it tough to get a training session in
Mai tai is a double conformation Champ UKC and AKC along with all the other venues, hopefully I will get her out on a pheasant soon!

[gundogguy]

I might be wrong but I believe the Grand Champion title is from the show ring not the HRC program. Therefore, the first Field Spaniel with a Grand Championship from the Show ring that has also earned a Master Hunter Title.

Tim, I think you're right on, I got carried away with the word "Grand" in the immediate aftermath of the fall HRC Grand and thought, Wow, a fieldie GHRCH! - Grand Hunting Retriever Champion. The show stuff I associate with UKC, guess what you'd call the parent org. of HRC. Wonder if Gundogguy can tell us if the dog's also an AKC Ch. (show title) in addition to the MH?

Congratulations on your judging and master pass accomplishments.

MG

The Fieldie in question is a double conformation show champion "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF"

Karen's son Josh and Mai tai, Tai would not go any where without Josh and Rooster!

[SpringerDude]

It was cool seeing that little boy carrying around that rooster. Treated it like a teddy bear. And of course had the attention of their dogs! Fun weekend meeting new folks and dogs.

[crackerd]

The Fieldie in question is a double conformation show champion "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF" ...

I have really posture hard with Karen to go Canadian and run in trials where the breed is accepted.

GDG, pretty sure I haven't the proper appreciation for all those agility and conformation letters and other prefixes and suffixes that go with the dog's name, but hope you can make of the idea of running one of the minor breeds in a spaniel trial appealing enough to get her to give it a go. What do you think of her chances at a placement? Have you run Canadian trials (betting they're 99.9% ESS and cockers, but can you break the numbers down between the two breeds)?

MG

[gundogguy]

The Fieldie in question is a double conformation show champion "GCH CH CT Killara's Here Comes The Sun VCD2 GN RE MH MX MXB MXJ XF" ...

I have really posture hard with Karen to go Canadian and run in trials where the breed is accepted.

GDG, pretty sure I haven't the proper appreciation for all those agility and conformation letters and other prefixes and suffixes that go with the dog's name, but hope you can make of the idea of running one of the minor breeds in a spaniel trial appealing enough to get her to give it a go. What do you think of her chances at a placement? Have you run Canadian trials (betting they're 99.9% ESS and cockers, but can you break the numbers down between the two breeds)?

MG

The allure of those prefixes and suffixes is terrible strong in todays breed folks. Canadian trials are tough from a logistic standpoint. Most folks would be driving past events here in the states just to go there. In the dog game time is opportunity.

Yes when it made logistical sense and we were in a dog that needed to be run and nothing was available here.
USA dogs tend to dominate the competition along the border provinces, recent Ontario trial was a USA sweep of placements last years National Champs won by a American dog ,owned by a Canadian , train and trialed and handled by American here in the USA. Go Figure. Sometimes the border gets a little blurry. The key is whether we are Canada or the USA standards of performance are the same.

[SpringerDude]

Got out today with Bingo. This dog can really find birds. Here is a pic of her first bird of the season.



Due to my inability to shoot well and yes, I could use every alibi I have ever thought of all on this one hunt. Sun, cover, head off the stock, didn't move my feet, stopped the gun swing, etc. etc.
But I did manage to get my 3rd bird before I ran out of shells. Actually, that happened simultaneously. Here is the pic to commemorate the hunt.

[UplandJim]

SpringerDude, are those snipe? They just don't look like woodcock from those angles.

nice SxS btw.

[SpringerDude]

They are woodcock. Shot in the hills of the Ozarks.

[CDN_Cocker]

I got a good question for the Spot... How do you train your dog to be steady to flush? I have been hunting my pup a fair amount this fall to get him lots of bird contacts. And I have been making him sit when he flushes but to do this I always have to blow the stop whistle when he has a flush. Will be eventually make the connection and do it on his own or is there a specific way to train this? He's great to stop when I hit the whistle and I don't mind that I don't get to take a lot of shots because I am focusing on making him sit - after all its his first year so his hunting and training are kind of being meshed together. I'm just thinking about down the line when he's 2 or 3 years old, I certainly don't want to have to always hit the whistle, especially if I don't see the flush - as with a rabbit.

[gundogguy]

I got a good question for the Spot... How do you train your dog to be steady to flush? I have been hunting my pup a fair amount this fall to get him lots of bird contacts. And I have been making him sit when he flushes but to do this I always have to blow the stop whistle when he has a flush. Will be eventually make the connection and do it on his own or is there a specific way to train this? He's great to stop when I hit the whistle and I don't mind that I don't get to take a lot of shots because I am focusing on making him sit - after all its his first year so his hunting and training are kind of being meshed together. I'm just thinking about down the line when he's 2 or 3 years old, I certainly don't want to have to always hit the whistle, especially if I don't see the flush - as with a rabbit.

The old North American adage is "Hunt your dog or steady your dog" you probable will not do both at the same time. In the UK most of the steading is done bef ore the hunting career begins, the Brits Scot and Irish have a real aversion for dogs running in. But you know that. the first place to get information would be from your breeder Jim K.
and then your retriever mentor. You might check with him to see if he familiar with the Bill Hillman traffic cop drills. a lot of Hillman's methods are very useful in the mechanics of training a flushing dog.
Short of that scour your providence for a spaniel man that has experience in steadying the already hunting Cocker.
This process is not one that can be done by correspondence course. There is a way to teach the dog to drop at the flush with out whistle. But you will need hands on face to face help, if your plan is to be a success.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RknC3NGQxio

Bird produced at about 25 second mark in the video no whistle, Used the dogs name to release her on the retrieve.

[CDN_Cocker]

Great info and video Hal. I have done traffic cop drills with dummies but of course it doesn't take much to steady a dog to dummies. ... they aren't as exciting as a bird. Jim K doesn't believe in steadying a young dog (at least that's what he told me lol) and told me he let's his pups run in and chase the first season then steady work comes after the season closes.

[crackerd]

Jim K doesn't believe in steadying a young dog (at least that's what he told me lol) and told me he let's his pups run in and chase the first season then steady work comes after the season closes.

Cass, it's early, thought you were talking about Jim L instead of Jim K and my eyebrows arched like that span in St. Louis - steady's steady but many trainers make a mistake of steadying a retriever too early and are prone to taking some of the "go" out of the dog that can't be put back in. (It's almost "national policy" in the UK, but they don't need the kind of "go" over there that we do, if only because they don't use water but for .01% of their retrieves.)

I mention retrievers only because this "sapping" of style from early steading can apply to a Boykin or any other spaniel that's worked nonslip. On the other hand letting a field trial Lab "chase" (and maybe catch a rabbit - or fox)

can really stoke them for those 450-yard marks and blinds. But I still wouldn't advise it. Nor would I let my spaniels break on a bird early - your breeder may do it but have to realize he's also got the wherewithal after these many years to know what training works for him as a "professional" amateur handler.

MG

[CDN_Cocker]

your breeder may do it but have to realize he's also got the wherewithal after these many years to know what training works for him

MG

You got it he's definitely much more qualified than myself which is why I have enforced the stop whistle from the beginning. I'm not worried about him losing any go, he's full of it and I don't think he's going to give any up any time soon. Just was wondering what the next step was. I do know as well that although he is learning while hunting you cannot really train - I'm just basically keeping him under control and making sure to always enforce commands. After December I plan on of course polishing the basics again and really developing his quartering and stopping to flush with pigeons and my mentor's help. My main priority this season was making sure he got a nose full of wild birds - didn't want him to miss out on that in his first year of life. I'd say I've been successful - he's a grouse machine. I thought there were no grouse around... Last year I only bagged 1 all season. I've seen more this year than my whole life Thanks to having a well bred pup. A dog really does make all the difference. I don't even know what I was doing all those years before having a bird dog lol. Sure doesn't seem like hunting looking back on it now

[gundogguy]

your breeder may do it but have to realize he's also got the wherewithal after these many years to know what training works for him

MG

- I'm just basically keeping him under control and making sure to always enforce commands.

After December I plan on of course polishing the basics again and really developing his quartering and stopping to flush with pigeons and my mentor's help.

I'm not one to allow a pup to learn to much on their own, especially wild birds before I instill manners. With the manners installed I like to think of wild bird exposure as a reward for becoming a good hunting partner. So putting off steadying is not some thing I buy into. But you should go with your breeders advice.

Running pattern and steadiness using pigeons now that is some thing I know about. Yesterday... Zeta

Running under a new handler..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLEVf3QmNqs

[polmaise]

I'm not 'getting' these recent posts and videos Cass?....
I must be seeing and reading something different?......
I know you guy's do things different, ...but the spaniel is a flushing dog...I kinda like them flushing for me.
Even my good friend MG , Is hinting on the Hunting,with the fox, but I ain't never had a flusher/hunter that had 'No go'!...had many a retriever in for training/rehabilitation ,that had the 'No' taken out!
...
Horses for courses, and You have a 'trainer' on the sidewalk', that's good!....I always insist on the brakes when going down hill,and a 'Handbrake' when parked on one

[CDN_Cocker]

I'm not 'getting' these recent posts and videos Cass?....
I must be seeing and reading something different?......
I know you guy's do things different, ...but the spaniel is a flushing dog...I kinda like them flushing for me.
Even my good friend MG , Is hinting on the Hunting,with the fox, but I ain't never had a flusher/hunter that had 'No go'!...had many a retriever in for training/rehabilitation ,that had the 'No' taken out!
...
Horses for courses, and You have a 'trainer' on the sidewalk', that's good!....I always insist on the brakes when going down hill,and a 'Handbrake' when parked on one

I am not worried about taking any "go" out of him (he's a crazy cocker after all) so am not against steadying him I just wanted to be able to hunt him this first season so the training has kind of been pushed aside as far as proper quartering. I am not saying my dog runs wild. He's 100% on recall, stops to whistle when and where ever, and turns on the whistle as well. He is flushing for me, he does not get out too wide, but it is more his natural quartering rather than anything I have taught to any extent. I do not allow disobedience, he is solid on that. I just mean that I did not make him steady to flush before hunting him. When he does flush, I hit the whistle and he sits for me to take a shot - he just doesn't sit on his own when he flushes (I need to use the stop whistle). I should also add I have not stopped training - we still do obedience drills daily and are working on FTP and 3 handed casting. Does that make more sense?

[Trekmoor]

I wonder if you are not making things harder for yourself than need be. If you train for stop to flush close into you to begin with it is easier to achieve the flush becoming the sit command in it's own right. I have never been to the kind of woodland grouse hunting you describe but it seems likely to me that the dog will be hunting just a bit too far out for ease of control. I like to train close in and once the dog will stop to flush without needing the whistle , begin to let the dog hunt further out. Keen dogs pull out on their handlers quite naturally so you would be likely to have no trouble at all allowing the dog to hunt further out once the sit to flush behaviour was established.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

I should also add I have not stopped training - we still do obedience drills daily and are working on FTP and 3 handed casting. Does that make more sense?[/quote]

You really should think about HRC Tests. if you are doing that work with your cocker. There are have been some Springer's that have titled in the program but I do not think there have been any Cockers, field bred or other wise title. I know of springer's history in HRC because I was the breeder of the first Springer to qualify at Seasoned Hunter retriever.
I attend the Fall Grand here in Michigan a few years back and some Texas springer's, Paul Kiellers breeding were entered in that Grand, Do not know if they qualified or not.
But with your retriever resources maybe and your in interest in obedience training possible that is the direction you should take your Jake dog.

[CDN_Cocker]

I wasn't aware cockers could go in those tests

[FirearmFan]

Here is Loki on his 1st live bird. He is becoming bird crazy.

[gundogguy]

Here is Loki on his 1st live bird. He is becoming bird crazy.

ah yes the lowly pigeon may lead to big things. Good you and your pup!

[CDN_Cocker]

Here is Loki on his 1st live bird. He is becoming bird crazy.

Awesome keep at it! Spaniels and pigeons go together like pb and j!

[FirearmFan]

Thanks guys. Loki is doing great. He's used to dead pigeons so he was a little bit apprehensive of a live one. He barked at it and ran around it for a minute or so before he decided to dive in and grab it. Now he is hooked.

[SpringerDude]

I wasn't aware cockers could go in those tests

Cass, I would highly encourage you to play the HRC game. Your dog would do the Started Test right now. The Seasoned Test would be fun for you to run. Double Marked retrieves on Land and Water. Dog hupped beside you and you shooting a pump gun with blanks at the ducks being launched from wingers. Blind retrieves on Land and Water. Diversion Bird and a Walk up Bird. You would have a blast.

[Sharon]

Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?

[gundogguy]

Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?

Could you be more specific? What vid? What name?

[SpringerDude]

Had a great time yesterday working a European Shoot. Didn't get any pictures. We were at Brushy Creek Farm ( www.birdhuntmissouri.com) and the shoot was hosted by the Quail and Upland Wildlife Federation.

We had a great group of dogs on the course today. Breeds represented were : German Shorthair, Dratthaar, Lab, Braque Francais, and English Springer Spaniels.

[gundogguy]

Had a great time yesterday working a European Shoot.
We had a great group of dogs on the course today. Breeds represented were : German Shorthair, Dratthaar, Lab, Braque Francais, and English Springer Spaniels.

Same here last weekend great autumn weather a nice way to proof steadiness. working on bird in mouth marking drill, though marks are mostly dink and dunk in the tower shoot, did have reasonable blinds to work on and a good walk-up after wards was a bit disorganized, but we managed to get one of older gals some contacts and that was good.
worked dogs on Friday at the shoot . Shot and worked dogs on Sunday Great break from the ordinary!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_07QOygsA

[SpringerDude]

Gundogguy,

When I first started working the dogs at a Euro Shoot, I would tally the retrieves for the day. However, I soon started focusing on the cool retrieves. The one or two retrieves that stretches a dog out a distance or a double mark, or back in the timber across a creek.... you know what I mean. The retrieves that really make you smile.

But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.

It is really a fun way to enjoy the dogs. I really enjoy seeing the good shooters struggle with a high flying bird with a strong tail wind pushing it. Man, can those birds fly fast. I am yelling Big Lead .. Bigger Lead... get way out in front. And then I say, "And that bird is brought to you by Winchester. Buy all your ammunition from Winchester". We do have fun!

[crackerd]

But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.

And it's all nonslip, ain't it, Tim?

Hey, Gundogguy, more on the cocker national, if you can fill us in.

MG

[gundogguy]

But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.

Hey, Gundogguy, more on the cocker national, if you can fill us in.

MG

2013 National Cocker Championship
Menoken, North Dakota

14th National Cocker Championship Field Trial

Judges: Marty Knibbs and Mike Noland



Placements


1st Place 2013 National Cocker Championship


Warrener's Ruby Throated Hummingbird "Pearl"
Owner/Handler: David Williams

ECSCA National Field Trial Championship Trophy, a sterling silver plate engraved with the names of each winner is offered by
David Flanagan to the owner(s) of the 2013 National Cocker Field Trial Championship Winner. For permanent possession it must be won
three times by the identical owner(s), not necessarily with the same dog or at consecutive national championships. Possession to be retained by
the ECSCA until terms of possession have been met.

Ballymena Farm Challenge Trophy, a bronze sculpture by artist Walter Matia of Oscar, a field-bred English Cocker Spaniel, mounted on a
wooden base with brass plates engraved with the names of each winner, is offered to the owner(s) of the winner by Lisa and Hobson Brown
through the ECSCA for competition at its National Cocker Field Trial Championship. For permanent possession, it must be won five times
by the identical owner(s), not necessarily with the same dog or at consecutive national championships. The trophy will remain in possession
of the ECSCA until such time as it is awarded. A commemorative engraved plaque with the club's medallion is offered outright by the donors to the winner.

Fallen Wings Breeder's Cup, a crystal vase on wood base offered by Rumi and Mike Schroeder to the breeder of the winner.
For permanent possession, it must be won three times by the identical breeder, not necessarily with the same dog or at consecutive
national championships. Possession to be retained by the ECSCA or the donors until terms of possession have been met. A commemorative
trophy is offered outright to the winner by the donors.

Crystal Trophy offered by Marilyn and mike Gilpin of Voxton Kennels to the owner(s) of the winner.

Acme Golden Whistle Award offered by the Acme Whistle Co. in England to the handler of the winning dog. The whistle will
be presented in a special frame which is offered by Ramon Rustia in memory of the NFC GC Creignant Mordred Merlin,
2002 National Cocker Field Trial Championship Winner.

ECSCA Limited Edition Commemorative Print of Last Year's Championship Winner.

Certificate for 450 pounds of dog food from Purina.

AKC Blue Rosette offered by Sue Sellers Rose.



********************

Second Place



Dakota Paines Bentley "Bentley"
Owner/Handler: Ralph Mowder


Bramblewood Kennels "Second Best" Trophy offered to the owner(s) of the second place dog outright by Andrea Hasse
and her husband Ernie Hasse, who owned and handle the first national championship winner in 1998, to recognize all
of the effort and hard work of the runner-up in 2013.

Crystal Trophy offered by www.fieldcockers.com,the Cockers in the Field website provider of information
on Cocker Field Trials and Spaniel Hunt Tests.

Certificate for 225 pounds of dog food from Purina.

AKC Red Rosette offered by Sue Sellers Rose.



********************

Third Place



Warrener’s Common Nighthawk MH "Ty"
Owner: Donna and Ron Hall
Handler: Paul McGagh

Crystal Trophy offered by Olivia Steele-Mortimer in Memory of FC CFC Mallowdale Cassie SH "Spydie", the dog she owned
and handled that placed third in the 2011 National Cocker Championship.

Certificate for 112.5 pounds of dog food from Purina.

AKC Yellow Rosette offered by Sue Sellers Rose.


********************

Forth Place



FC Warrener’s Great Crested Flycatcher "Snickett"
Owner: Vicky Thomas
Handler: Paul McGagh


Fourth Place

Crystal Trophy offered by Dominique Savoie, owner and handler of FC Full of Mulligan "Mulligan",
the dog that placed fourth in the 2012 National Cocker Championship.

Certificate for 112.5 pounds of dog food from Purina.

AKC White Rosette offered by Sue Sellers Rose.



********************

Hopefully the Paul French video will be available in the states here before Christmas

Hie-on!

[gundogguy]

Gundogguy,

When I first started working the dogs at a Euro Shoot, I would tally the retrieves for the day. However, I soon started focusing on the cool retrieves. The one or two retrieves that stretches a dog out a distance or a double mark, or back in the timber across a creek.... you know what I mean. The retrieves that really make you smile.

But there are several other benefits to these shoots than getting retrieve work. Like watching a bird fly over head and 6 shots going off and the birds still fly's away. No bird, and the dog needs to turn and focus on the next opportunity. A dog gets loose from another station and comes poach a bird that your dog should get. Dog needs to honor and forget that bird. No big deal. My dog, Bingo, has learned to watch the shooters and when they shoulder their gun, she looks in the direction it is pointed. She is all business when they start releasing birds.

It is really a fun way to enjoy the dogs. I really enjoy seeing the good shooters struggle with a high flying bird with a strong tail wind pushing it. Man, can those birds fly fast. I am yelling Big Lead .. Bigger Lead... get way out in front. And then I say, "And that bird is brought to you by Winchester. Buy all your ammunition from Winchester". We do have fun!

SD your working the program correctly it is great place to proof and work on behaviors that just do not always present themselves at normal sessions, group or otherwise.
I would dare say in the last 20 yrs I have work some 300 shoots here in SW Michigan...untold numbers of birds in the air.

[Sharon]

Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?

Could you be more specific? What vid? What name?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk5dKtp0Jlg

[bpope]

Here are my guys. These are my first two Springers and I absolutely love this breed. So amazing their drive to hunt, retrieve and be your buddy at such a young age.

Fiocchi (Okie) is 5 months old and his brother Olliver (Ollie/Bubba) is 10 months. They are best friends for sure!

[gundogguy]

Very nice video. What does that name mean in English ?

Her name is Quesadillas Quaesa Dei is her call name...Her Sire's name was Taco and her dam's name was Hot Tamale She is a hot spicy running little dog so the name fits.