The Spaniel Spot

[polmaise]

And the tendency I see is to demand that cockers hunt like springers: when people tell me "they're getting better and better," they mean, "they're more and more like springers."

Then, in the words of 'Erlandson' .."Any one that thinks these are miniature springers ,they don't know Cocker's''

[gundogguy]

And the tendency I see is to demand that cockers hunt like springers: when people tell me "they're getting better and better," they mean, "they're more and more like springers."

Then, in the words of 'Erlandson' .."Any one that thinks these are miniature springers ,they don't know Cocker's''

A real conundrum in the above sentences. Maybe the Cocker folks can confirm, As I understand the EC Parent Club had excepted the Springer Spaniel Blue Book as the guide for judging and conduct at trial?? Is this true? http://essft.com/ESSFTA_Blue_Book1215%5B1%5D.pdf

The real challenge for the Cocker is really mathematics. In Canada they more or less have to run in Springer trials under for the most part springer judges. Here in the states they seem to have busy trial schedule with about 20 or so Cockers only entered each event and run under springer judges for the most part. If a good Cocker person is judging that takes a good dog off the field that day or weekend.. Overall there seems to be a lack in numbers that is conducive to good breed standards and the development of such.

When a judge is considering Flush it does not matter what my, or your definition is, it is solely his definition that counts on the day of the trial. and He can argue the differences out with his co-judge. Range and pattern is another area of concern if I was Cocker breeder/trainer/handler. Personally and I do have some agreement with others that the lil dogs are being asked to run to bigger than they are realistically capable.And Marking the fall, a really big buggabu with me as a gun, there is just way more handling going on during which should have been a marked retrieve. It seems quite stylish for the handler to stand and wave his/her arms about shouting "back".

These types of issues will very rarely be settled for every one agreement. Establish your standards and train your dog for them. If they are not capable examine your blood line then examine your breed. Pick your battles and have a good life.

[polmaise]

And the tendency I see is to demand that cockers hunt like springers: when people tell me "they're getting better and better," they mean, "they're more and more like springers."

Then, in the words of 'Erlandson' .."Any one that thinks these are miniature springers ,they don't know Cocker's''

A real conundrum in the above sentences.

Always

[crackerd]

Well played throughout, gundogguy - wondering: I was getting into spaniel hunt tests not long after cocker trials resumed following a 30+ year lapse if I'm recalling correctly. Seems the breed (fbcockers) has only grown in popularity since - why, in your opinion, have the trial numbers stayed flat? Is it a regional (south, southwest, West Coast) predicament that's inhibiting field trial growth?

MG

[gundogguy]

Well played throughout, gundogguy - wondering: I was getting into spaniel hunt tests not long after cocker trials resumed following a 30+ year lapse if I'm recalling correctly. Seems the breed (fbcockers) has only grown in popularity since - why, in your opinion, have the trial numbers stayed flat? Is it a regional (south, southwest, West Coast) predicament that's inhibiting field trial growth?

MG

I remember those days. 30+ years ago. At an inaugural test here in Mich. I judged,planted bird, and gunned the event. And I was even accused of running the lunch wagon that day!

Field trialing is based on standards and traditions. In today's society neither of which are highly prized or coveted. There is a lack of appreciation for what is good and what is quality, mediocrity seems to be more comforting than the uphill struggle to be all they can be! Can you imagine if the Greatest Generation was not the finest folks that ever lived on this planet, and excepted the mediocre during WW2.
My early mentors were all from that era, they understood winning they understood defeat. They always wanted to win at any cost.

Through the years my wife and I introduced dozens of folks to the venues of high standards, even got some them to the line, so they could run their dog in trial. It is hard to maintain a competitive edge if one does not really understand the traditions or except the standards. Life holds many good and maybe better distractions that one can get themselves involve with,that will take precedent over the tribulations,the schedule, the travel, the expense, frustration levels that are common in our sport of trialing.

South-west and west coast just returned from there traditions are being blown up every day. The South "Quail is King" spaniels need pheasants both to hunt and trial with.

[polmaise]

I've got my springer pup's first test coming up on Sunday. I think he'll do O.K. in the puppy but I will maybe run him in the Novice too just to pass the time. I get very bored very quickly as a spectator so I will probably give him a try at Novice even though I haven't even begun to teach him blind retrieves yet. I'll just withdraw him if he is given a blind of any distance or degree of difficulty.

Bill T.

How did you get on Today Bill ?
I only got a pm from one of our clients that they got placed .

[Trekmoor]

Hi Robert, I have just finished posting this "elsewhere" ......it is my perspective on today's spaniel tests. I hope nobody minds me posting it onto here...........

Re: On Edge

Gundog test day..... 10.30 a.m. and I had finished the run in Puppy. Cover was spike grass, ground was undulating hills :roll: and I was knackered before I'd even started. The test was held, to my surprise, on a partial cheek-wind.... it was partly onto my left cheek and partly onto the cheeks of my backside ! I more or less just let Edge do his own thing and sort out the wind and his pattern himself. I blew turn only once and I could have never blown it at all, he was doing his own turns but when he got about 15 yards out in front of me on one outward cast I blew turn ...........just to let the judges see I could turn him !

Only one pup was hunted at a time and this suited Edge fine. He was a bit puzzled by the presence of the two judges and the bang firer/dummy thrower and he did check while hunting a couple of times to take a squint at them. The test consisted of a hunt through thick rashes, then a shot fired to which the pup was to stop. I didn't have to give any stop command, Edge sat at once to the shot.

Then he was hunted on and another shot was fired and this time a dummy was thrown to which he sat and remained steady until commanded to retrieve. He did the retrieve very easily , the retrieve was a very short one ......less than 20 yards. He did a perfect, non-drop , sitting delivery.


Then he was hunted on again and then made to sit to whistle as the dummy thrower let him see a dummy dropped nearby. He was then hunted on away from the dummy and Edge did that perfectly too. I only had to say "leave it" and wave my arm and he resumed hunting away from the dummy without even a backward glance.

I was instructed to call him in and then to send him back for the memory retrieve. Edge went straight back onto it and completed the retrieve with another perfect delivery.

That was it over and Edge ended up 10 clear points ahead of his nearest rival and won the Puppy test.
The scoring was much the same as usual for the spaniels. The possible total score was 100 with 60 points for the hunting, and 20 points each for the marked retrieve and the memory retrieve. Edge had a total score of 85 . He lost all of his points on the hunting ...... I'm not sure what was "wrong" with it but it obviously was not totally "right." Edge had a "perfect" score of 40 for his retrieving which rewarded me for all the work that has gone into his retrieves.

The spaniel that gained second place had 5 points more for his hunting than Edge but it muffed the marked retrieve ..... I think.

I had entered the Novice but I warned the judge that I'd withdraw him if he couldn't manage the blind retrieve ........ and he didn't manage it ! That was 20 points lost and he lost a lot more on his hunting. The novice dogs were hunted in pairs and the other dog of our "pair" was a hard going little demon of a cocker that needed an awful lot of whistle. Edge responded to the other handlers whistle .... I never used mine at all........ and that caused Edge's hunt to look very "stoppy-starty." It didn't "flow" and any pattern he had was disrupted repeatedly.

Edge scored only 50 out of 100 in the Novice and gained the distinction of being equal last on the score sheet ! He did the Novice marked retrieve very well and got full marks for that but 20 points off for the blind and 30 points off for the hunting had well and truly cooked his goose in Novice............... Equal last ! I'll never live it down !

I re-learned a few old lessons today. A good dog with a decent handler trained and hunted on tennis balls can do quite well but a good dog with a decent handler trained and hunted on actual game will do a "bleep" sight better !

This was made even more obvious in the spaniel Open when one little total blitz of a spaniel managed the impossible score of 100 out of 100 ! I have never seen or heard of any spaniel gaining full marks in an Open before. Well done that man !

I also re-learned that having a somewhat noisy, whistle blowing handler working his dog next to my dog is very likely to bugger up my dog as it hunts................ more work required !

I came home very pleased with Edge. He can do the job. As usual my wife congratulated the dog and gave me no credit or praise whatsoever ! She's a hard wummin to please that one !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Well done on the Puppy Bill.
We had the springer out on rabbits the previous week.
I'm sure your young one will have enjoyed the day and gained experience of his first.

[kweeksdraw]

And the tendency I see is to demand that cockers hunt like springers: when people tell me "they're getting better and better," they mean, "they're more and more like springers."

Then, in the words of 'Erlandson' .."Any one that thinks these are miniature springers ,they don't know Cocker's''

Thanks, everyone for your replies.
It may just come down to numbers, but in this area, Mid-Atlantic, the numbers are growing. Slowly, but surely.
I am concerned that the growth won't occur in time to get judges who will judge them as Cockers.
It seems likely that there still will be those matches that are decided on the quality of the flush, but it really needs to be rolled back. Besides, there's plenty else that can go wrong at trial!

[gundogguy]

Hi Robert, I have just finished posting this "elsewhere" ......it is my perspective on today's spaniel tests. I hope nobody minds me posting it onto here...........

Re: On Edge

Gundog test day..... 10.30 a.m. and I had finished the run in Puppy. Cover was spike grass, ground was undulating hills :roll: and I was knackered before I'd even started. The test was held, to my surprise, on a partial cheek-wind.... it was partly onto my left cheek and partly onto the cheeks of my backside ! I more or less just let Edge do his own thing and sort out the wind and his pattern himself. I blew turn only once and I could have never blown it at all, he was doing his own turns but when he got about 15 yards out in front of me on one outward cast I blew turn ...........just to let the judges see I could turn him !

Only one pup was hunted at a time and this suited Edge fine. He was a bit puzzled by the presence of the two judges and the bang firer/dummy thrower and he did check while hunting a couple of times to take a squint at them. The test consisted of a hunt through thick rashes, then a shot fired to which the pup was to stop. I didn't have to give any stop command, Edge sat at once to the shot.

Then he was hunted on and another shot was fired and this time a dummy was thrown to which he sat and remained steady until commanded to retrieve. He did the retrieve very easily , the retrieve was a very short one ......less than 20 yards. He did a perfect, non-drop , sitting delivery.


Then he was hunted on again and then made to sit to whistle as the dummy thrower let him see a dummy dropped nearby. He was then hunted on away from the dummy and Edge did that perfectly too. I only had to say "leave it" and wave my arm and he resumed hunting away from the dummy without even a backward glance.

I was instructed to call him in and then to send him back for the memory retrieve. Edge went straight back onto it and completed the retrieve with another perfect delivery.

That was it over and Edge ended up 10 clear points ahead of his nearest rival and won the Puppy test.
The scoring was much the same as usual for the spaniels. The possible total score was 100 with 60 points for the hunting, and 20 points each for the marked retrieve and the memory retrieve. Edge had a total score of 85 . He lost all of his points on the hunting ...... I'm not sure what was "wrong" with it but it obviously was not totally "right." Edge had a "perfect" score of 40 for his retrieving which rewarded me for all the work that has gone into his retrieves.

The spaniel that gained second place had 5 points more for his hunting than Edge but it muffed the marked retrieve ..... I think.

I had entered the Novice but I warned the judge that I'd withdraw him if he couldn't manage the blind retrieve ........ and he didn't manage it ! That was 20 points lost and he lost a lot more on his hunting. The novice dogs were hunted in pairs and the other dog of our "pair" was a hard going little demon of a cocker that needed an awful lot of whistle. Edge responded to the other handlers whistle .... I never used mine at all........ and that caused Edge's hunt to look very "stoppy-starty." It didn't "flow" and any pattern he had was disrupted repeatedly.

Edge scored only 50 out of 100 in the Novice and gained the distinction of being equal last on the score sheet ! He did the Novice marked retrieve very well and got full marks for that but 20 points off for the blind and 30 points off for the hunting had well and truly cooked his goose in Novice............... Equal last ! I'll never live it down !

I re-learned a few old lessons today. A good dog with a decent handler trained and hunted on tennis balls can do quite well but a good dog with a decent handler trained and hunted on actual game will do a "bleep" sight better !

This was made even more obvious in the spaniel Open when one little total blitz of a spaniel managed the impossible score of 100 out of 100 ! I have never seen or heard of any spaniel gaining full marks in an Open before. Well done that man !

I also re-learned that having a somewhat noisy, whistle blowing handler working his dog next to my dog is very likely to bugger up my dog as it hunts................ more work required !

I came home very pleased with Edge. He can do the job. As usual my wife congratulated the dog and gave me no credit or praise whatsoever ! She's a hard wummin to please that one !

Bill T.

Nice to read you and edge did well. You should have been a a journalist for the Times felt like i was walking with you and your pup in the spike grass. Would you have any photos of spike grass?

[crackerd]

Hi Robert, I have just finished posting this "elsewhere" ......it is my perspective on today's spaniel tests. I hope nobody minds me posting it onto here...........

Re: On Edge...

Nice to read you and edge did well. You should have been a a journalist for the Times felt like i was walking with you and your pup...

Shhhh, gundogguy...Wullie abroad, a/k/a Bill T. and Trekmoor hereabouts, according to some unconfirmed intel, also goes by the name "David Tomlinson."

MG

P.S. 'T'was indeed an enjoyable accounting of your and Edge's excellent adventure, Bill - thanks for that.

[Trekmoor]

Re: On Edge...

Shhhh, gundogguy...Wullie abroad, a/k/a Bill T. and Trekmoor hereabouts, according to some unconfirmed intel, also goes by the name "David Tomlinson."

MG

You cheeky sod ! Anybody but David Tomlinson ! But the man's often ridiculous points of view do a good job of selling a certain magazine.

Gundogguy ............ Spike grass is a kind of marsh grass (not reeds or rushes) that often grows thickly over hundreds of acres of wet ground or moorland. Most folk here just lump it in with all the other kinds of rough, tall grass and call it "rashes" but I have noticed that over the last ten years or so some folk are now using my name for it of "spikegrass." It can vary between about knee height to 5 feet high .........easily high enough and thick enough to hide a hunting dog.

Dogs find it pretty easy to hunt through , it has a point on top of each stem but that point isn't as "hard" as say bramble or wild rose or even gorse. I've only had two dogs injured by it in about 50 years of hunting and retrieving among the stuff. One pointed grass stem had gone about 3 inches up a dog's nostril and in the case of the other dog ,the point had penetrated by about 3/4 of an inch into the inside corner of the dog's eye. Both of those dogs hunted on quite happily once I'd removed the spike of grass.

I don't think I have any close up photographs of it but I have included a couple of pics of the stuff anyway. While spike grass is pretty easy stuff for a dog to hunt through it pays to be careful while hunting it for it can hide game from a questing dog very easily......it can also hide the dog from the handler at the same time. In Britain spike grass is very common.

Edge among spike grass.


More spike grass on the moor I hunt my Brittany on.


Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Re: On Edge...

Shhhh, gundogguy...Wullie abroad, a/k/a Bill T. and Trekmoor hereabouts, according to some unconfirmed intel, also goes by the name "David Tomlinson."

MG

You cheeky sod ! Anybody but David Tomlinson ! But the man's often ridiculous points of view do a good job of selling a certain magazine.

Gundogguy ............ Spike grass is a kind of marsh grass (not reeds or rushes) that often grows thickly over hundreds of acres of wet ground or moorland. Most folk here just lump it in with all the other kinds of rough, tall grass and call it "rashes" but I have noticed that over the last ten years or so some folk are now using my name for it of "spikegrass." It can vary between about knee height to 5 feet high .........easily high enough and thick enough to hide a hunting dog.

Dogs find it pretty easy to hunt through , it has a point on top of each stem but that point isn't as "hard" as say bramble or wild rose or even gorse. I've only had two dogs injured by it in about 50 years of hunting and retrieving among the stuff. One pointed grass stem had gone about 3 inches up a dog's nostril and in the case of the other dog ,the point had penetrated by about 3/4 of an inch into the inside corner of the dog's eye. Both of those dogs hunted on quite happily once I'd removed the spike of grass.

I don't think I have any close up photographs of it but I have included a couple of pics of the stuff anyway. While spike grass is pretty easy stuff for a dog to hunt through it pays to be careful while hunting it for it can hide game from a questing dog very easily......it can also hide the dog from the handler at the same time. In Britain spike grass is very common.

Edge among spike grass.


More spike grass on the moor I hunt my Brittany on.


Bill T.

Bill, Thank-you,looks lovely. we have similar areas here near marshes and low ground. In many ways resembles Sheeps-Head Fescue. I have planted some in a small area for starting pups in. the ground I planted was a bit higher and dryer so it really never "spikes" out much. Edge looks like he is doing quite nicely in the cover.
Crackerd thanks, I'm familiar with Wullie on another site, either name he is still a good dog man! Nice to see him e running a spaniel in cover.

[Trekmoor]

Yesterday I ran Edge my springer pup in another Novice test but we came in "nowhere." I lost all 20 points available on the blind retrieve and only his perfect mark for steadiness and good if not brilliant marks for his hunting pulled him up into about the middle of the scoreboard.

The ground we hunted over was quite difficult for handlers and for dogs. The Novice test was held on top of a hill where a fir wood had been felled a few years back. The foresters had left behind the usual mess of deep ruts meant for drainage (I think) and they'd also left behind broken branches and many upturned root systems from the trees. In among and all over these things grew spike grass that was pretty thick in places.

As I hunted Edge I spent as much time watching where I put my feet among the root tangles and the often spike grass hidden deep ruts as I did watching what my dog was doing. More than one handler who failed to do that went all their length while their dogs went merrily onwards !

I considered myself fortunate by comparison to the handler running his dog at the same time as me. The cover was a bit thinner where he was and I felt my dog was given a better chance to show the judges his hunting ability. This worked hard against me during the blind retrieve however. This was actually a "blind seek-back" dropped unseen by a helper as we hunted forward.

The judge gave me a pretty good mark on that dummy when I was told to send my dog for it but that's when all the cover and the deep, water filled ruts in the earth worked hard against me. Edge only went out 30 yards and then began hunting back towards me but the dummy was about 40 yards out. I at once called him up . I do not in any way blame my dog for this failure on the blind because I still haven't taught him how to do blinds. His "line" out towards the dummy was squee-hook and his stopping and handling to whistle at 30 yards went out the window during the excitement of the test.

In short I thoroughly enjoyed it ! It was well worth the £5 entry fee just for the experience and for the crack with the other spaniel freaks .

Bill T.

[polmaise]

I heard the score was zero by the judges if the dog was handled on the blind in that test ??

[gundogguy]

I heard the score was zero by the judges if the dog was handled on the blind in that test ??

High standards for taking the command for a blind. "take the proper line or crash an burn"!!

[polmaise]

I heard the score was zero by the judges if the dog was handled on the blind in that test ??

High standards for taking the command for a blind. "take the proper line or crash an burn"!!

Novice?...the ground Bill described ?.no sirb

[Trekmoor]

I heard the score was zero by the judges if the dog was handled on the blind in that test ??

One of the novice competitors said this was happening but it wasn't the case when I tried and failed on the blind. I did handle and nothing was said by the judge. When I called my own dog up without being told to the other judge came over at once to ask why I'd stopped handling.

What the judges were doing was what they'd told us they'd do just prior to the test.......that is.......if a dog ran-in or attempted to, it was eliminated. I think at least two dogs were eliminated for attempted run-ins ?

Personally I've never heard of dogs being given zero marks if their handlers handled them during blind retrieves. I haven't seen that done in tests for retrievers or HPR 's or spaniels because the very nature of a blind retrieve makes handling almost a certainty.

I.M.O. the judges were judging "hard" but I have no objections to that if it is applied to every contestant and it seemed to be applied to everyone during that test. I thought it was a good and simply laid out test with no "tricks" in the test to catch anyone out with. Since it was kept simple the judges felt free to judge "hard."

I didn't have a snowballs chance in heck of winning. Even if Edge had got the full 20 points for his blind retrieve my nemesis , Eddie Scott , would still have easily beaten me ! Eddie annihilated the rest of us and was a very worthy winner.

I'll be out training with one of the tests dummy throwers tonight and I will be interested to hear his views on the test.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Aparently it was not consistent if you were not penalised yet others were.

[Trekmoor]

I didn't say that others were being penalised for handling on the blind, one of the other competitors said that and I think mistakenly ? Possibly that competitor understood the judges comments/instructions wrongly ??

If the judges were taking off all points if handling took place on the blind retrieve then few competitors would have been given any marks for it but a good number of folk did get marks for it. I was certainly given every opportunity to handle and it wasn't the judge who called my dog up.

Just like during Edge's first Novice test I warned the judge in advance that he hadn't been trained blind retrieves yet so I'd probably just call him up if he was "in trouble." I handled at least twice and since Edge began to return towards me I just called him up rather than worry him with further handling that he didn't fully understand.

It would have seemed strange judging to me if dogs that had been handled a couple of times and then found the dummy had been given a zilch score like I got for not finding the dummy ? As I said in a previous post the very nature of a blind retrieve makes it likely that handling will be needed. If a dog did not respond well to that handling then the points start to come off........but the dog would not be zilched right away.
Next time I see the judges I'll ask what their marking system was on the blind.

I've got no complaints at all about the judging , I didn't expect to win or be placed .......and I wasn't !

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Aparently it was not consistent if you were not penalised yet others were.

Is the judging criteria in the UK concerning tests..Objective or subjective analysis????
Here in the US Tests are judged very objectively. Did the dog do the work that was asked of them? Style,pace, and general spaniel like qualities are not factors or least should not be considered. Penalties or low scores would be based on non-performance. i.e. lack of response to the whistle, unsteadiness lack of retrieve failure to enter water.

Trials just the opposite, dogs are awarded placements based on the judges panel's likes or dislike. Judges have wide parameters to operate in. For example, some judges like the style of dog that runs wide, where another appreciates a dog with a more beater like demeanor. Many times the size of the dog can influence the judges decision in trial, where in a test size is irrelevant. Over the years i have had many dogs that finish the trial in good or great shape, and yet receive no award. Judges generally when questioned, have very simple answers, they just appreciated the placing dogs more than my dog.
Here you want to keep a good book on your judges, likes and dislikes.

[crackerd]

Aparently it was not consistent if you were not penalised yet others were.

Robt.! - maybe you mistook the judging in Bill's venture with the HRC test you took in over the weekend! - can't wait to "hear" (still haven't got that faculty down quite yet) all about it, and your thoughts on the judging as well as the dogs. And on our fine patch (USA, USA, USA) of course.

So sorry I missed y'all, but that farmboy must have been one hellacious host, as most in Louisiana are by their very hospitable nature.

MG

[Trekmoor]

[
Here you want to keep a good book on your judges, likes and dislikes.

This can apply to both tests and trials here. Personally I just enter and give it a go unless I very strongly suspect that a judge is "bent." I do know that some test and trial folk here take a look at who will be judging and if they don't like the judge(s) for some reason , real or imaginary, then they will not run under them.

British judges, maybe especially, British spaniel judges, do like to see style in a dog as it hunts and everything else being equal they are likely to give the dog they like the look of most the win.
I like fast dogs with a lot of "action" as they hunt and I like dogs to hunt fairly wide .........I am suspicious of dogs that always hunt a "flat, windscreen pattern" regardless of ground conditions or wind direction.

When I judged HPR trials I used to warn the competitors that if I had time to yawn and scratch my backside as their dogs hunted then they were unlikely to win. I think I'd be the same if I judged spaniel tests or trials.

Bill T.

[chrokeva]

Aparently it was not consistent if you were not penalised yet others were.

Is the judging criteria in the UK concerning tests..Objective or subjective analysis????
Here in the US Tests are judged very objectively. Did the dog do the work that was asked of them? Style,pace, and general spaniel like qualities are not factors or least should not be considered. Penalties or low scores would be based on non-performance. i.e. lack of response to the whistle, unsteadiness lack of retrieve failure to enter water.

Trials just the opposite, dogs are awarded placements based on the judges panel's likes or dislike. Judges have wide parameters to operate in. For example, some judges like the style of dog that runs wide, where another appreciates a dog with a more beater like demeanor. Many times the size of the dog can influence the judges decision in trial, where in a test size is irrelevant. Over the years i have had many dogs that finish the trial in good or great shape, and yet receive no award. Judges generally when questioned, have very simple answers, they just appreciated the placing dogs more than my dog.
Here you want to keep a good book on your judges, likes and dislikes.

This explanation regarding judging trials is about as good as I have heard in my short time in this game. Thank you for helping clear up something that has had me scratching my head for several months now.

[polmaise]

Aparently it was not consistent if you were not penalised yet others were.

Robt.! - maybe you mistook the judging in Bill's venture with the HRC test you took in over the weekend! - can't wait to "hear" (still haven't got that faculty down quite yet) all about it, and your thoughts on the judging as well as the dogs. And on our fine patch (USA, USA, USA) of course.

So sorry I missed y'all, but that farmboy must have been one hellacious host, as most in Louisiana are by their very hospitable nature.

MG

Since we are on the topic of Judging MG. I'll send you my personal view of which I gleamed/learned during my time in the states which to me has been invaluable to see rather than read /(I also had a great mentor during the time which also helps) .'Farmboy' and every one I met in the South had the manners and courtesy combined with great food ,fit for a king ! ..I even had some 'Genuine musky down wine' .Nar'leens was a blast ,shame you were not there. ...

The 'Judged test' mentioned earlier had more than one dog receive a zero score on the blind although the dog retrieved the dummy! ..Now.one could throw in the wild card of 'over handling' ?, but this was a novice test. So perhaps in Bill T's run ,his dog being pulled up by the handler as a fail to retrieve had never achieved this possibility however?.
In any case, It is my judgement that the judges should give the benefit to the dog if it is responding to the commands of the handler on a blind and competing in a 'novice' .
C'est la vie ,as they say

[polmaise]

I remember posting this some years ago and a well respected Trial trainer in the UK , Said ''Why are you moving so fast'' ? ...
I never replied to my learned friend.
..
I did however to continue training the dog .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fqrQ96Y3Q

[gundogguy]

Polmaise video seems to be private! Cannot open!

[polmaise]

Polmaise video seems to be private! Cannot open!

Sorted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fqrQ96Y3Q

[polmaise]

I have a concern regarding Spaniels on this side of the pond .
If I posted this over here I would probably get a barrage from those that already have awards or those that have awarded .

We have a saying over here 'Shoe shiner's' , meaning the spaniel is hunting no more cover or ground than shining your shoes' ! Which kinda goes against my grain and the purpose of why we hunt 'Spaniels' ? ..Primarily to find/flush game for the gun .

I'm an old lone hunter background however, so 'Fancy patterns ' to impress a judge that I have taught the dog to only hunt an area in front of my feet usually doesn't produce much game for my gun . It may produce game for another gun in the party ? but that's not hunting in my eyes.

Reading a spaniel while it's hunting is like watching 'poetry in motion' if you follow where the dog is 'hunting' ---to find that game . It becomes sterile in my eyes to 'turn it off that scent' because it is 'out of pattern' ?....
(disclaimer) - Running forward aimlessly self hunting and out of control or area of the range of the gun is not what I'm saying.

Just seen too many these days being awarded for close hunting patterns ,rather than actually hunting . Almost all 'flushes' were due to agitation of the ground rather than a hunt/find/contact/ flush .

I could be wrong ?> But I usually have something in my bag.

[CDN_Cocker]

I think we would agree about more than we think in person P. Primarily, I am a lone hunter. I require that my spaniel hunts wider than what most like, because quite simply, if working as close as in a trial produced birds then I wouldn't waste money feeding a dog to find them - I could kick them up myself. I think range is something that is given a bit too much value - any dog with half a brain can learn to work whatever range the handler requires. Mine works much closer when training/trialling than he doesn while hunting.

[polmaise]

I think we would agree about more than we think in person P.

Probably

[Trekmoor]

An interesting subject Robert. In a test or a trial you have to work in the way you think the judges will want to see if you want to win. My cockers spend most of their time hunting far too far out for tests or for trials. When I competed with them in tests I had to spend 2 - 4 weeks working on their ranges and keeping them "in" prior to a test.

My other problem during tests was that I expect my dogs to "hunt the wind" and not to run in a zig-zag pattern over my feet like little clockwork mice. One of my two cockers competed in 3 Novice tests before he won . His hunting got hammered by judges who wanted an "across my front" pattern regardless of wind direction. I got lucky in the third test he ran. The "A" panel judge downmarked every competing dog apart from mine for not "hunting to the wind." A cheek-wind was blowing and every other competitor still made their dogs go "tick-tock" over their feet. My cocker won that test because the "A" panel judge also worked pointers and setters.

A month or two ago my springer pup won a Puppy test. I have a feeling he might not win it now ! He now hunts a bit too far out from me to suit the taste of most judges. I had been going to run him in a Novice test in a couple of weeks time but I am now thinking again about doing that. I'd have to re-train him to hunt considerably closer in.

To some extent it matters quite a bit what kind of game a spaniel hunts for. Birds suit a wider ranging dog, rabbits suit a closer ranging dog .....if you want to get a shot at them. Rabbits are very scarce where I live so pheasant hunting ranges are what I "allow" my dogs to do.......and then I retrain them before a test !

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

The thing about range is that you can take it out of dog very easily, however it is very difficult to put into the dog. Simple put "range is what it is" I for one have never conspicuously try to affect the dogs range and/or style. Being that range erodes control, response to trained situations are something that I would affect in a dogs behavior. Whistle, flush, shot should makes a dog change his attitude regardless of range.
As for trialing a Springer/Cocker the dog should take his birds in order. If your dog runs big find judges that like a high headed dog that cruise the cover at the edge of gun range.
If a beater style dog is what you have search high and low for judges that appreciates the more thorough style of cover buster

[polmaise]

It should matter 'not a jot' (in my book) ,but then I have always been blunt .
If Competitions are catering to what personal preferences a particular judge likes or dislikes and what 'they prefer' for some one to enter depending on that criteria...sad.
I 'relate' to Bill's comment regarding the A panel judge in his 'Test' . Probably someone that understood 'Wind' .

[gundogguy]

It is not so much a case of competitions catering to personal preference as it is the difference between objective scoring vs subjective judging.
To begin with Tests are scored. At each level of testing the "judges" confirm with a numerical score as to how well the dog perform the given assignment. The Scoring is done with objective analysis. Here in the US Tests are judged very objectively. Did the dog do the work that was asked of them? Style,pace, and general spaniel like qualities are not factors . . Penalties or low scores would be based on non-performance. i.e. lack of response to the whistle, unsteadiness lack of retrieve failure to enter water and so on. The judges panel should not be scored from personal like or dislike of the dog work but rather " did the dog complete the assignment and solve the problem". Tests by there very nature do not provide an award for the best dog the judges saw that day.

Spaniel trials are just the opposite, the judging is done with subjective analysis. If a dog performs in a less than productive manner, breaking, failed retrieve and so on the dog puts themselves out of the competition. The judges job is to find the best dog that day. Not necessarily put dogs out. Dogs are awarded placements based on the judges panel's likes or dislike. Most often it is in the quality of the bird finding that, the difference between two dog and how they made their birds. Judges have wide parameters to operate in. For example, some judges like the style of dog that runs wide, where another appreciates a dog with a more beater like demeanor. Many times the size of the dog can influence the judges decision in trial, where in a test size is irrelevant. Over the years I have had many dogs that finish the trial,and have had a solid 3 series to prove their worthiness, and yet receive no award. Judges generally when questioned, have very simple answers, they just appreciated the placing dogs more than my dog. Often it is not a case of the dog not doing the work it is a case of the judge not finding the work pleasing to his eye.
These thoughts come about from discussions that have been on going with spaniel folks here and in the UK. So I thought I would share them to help folks with understanding what Spaniel Trials and Tests were about. These ideas are an on going evolving discussion.
The key to our system of trialing is being out there every week and and getting a different panel of judges assessment on a regular basis.

[Trekmoor]

When I compete in a spaniel test the two things I am fairly certain of in advance is that many judges will not like my dogs if I leave the dogs to quarter as far out as I usually do and leave them to quarter in a more "raggedy" pattern than is normal in both tests and trials.

I accept this and train my dogs to keep "in" a bit before a test but I do not change the raggedy pattern . My dogs are trying to work to the wind when they hunt in that way and I will not change that for any judge. I just hope I don't get too many points knocked off by the judges or hope that I am being judged by people who also work to the wind.

In general , I have no complaints about tests, they are what they are and in Britain tests were first done as a fun day out held during the close season. I don't think they were ever meant to be taken seriously ......and I don't.

Trials are "different." Trials do matter. Winning or being placed in trials is the only way a gundog can get a K.C. "Stud book number" on it's pedigree and winning in trials entitles you to put F.T.W. or F.T.Ch. in front of a dog's name. Having those things can help a lot when selling puppies !
It is amazing how many people disparage trial dogs but when it comes to buying a pup they still want to see the pup's pedigree splattered all over with the red ink of " F.T.Ch." Seeing that red ink takes a little bit of the chanciness out of buying a pup.

I've only owned 3 springers in my lifetime. The first one was so bad I don't even like to think about him. The second one was much better but he barked when he flushed game, neither of those two dogs had any "red" at all in their pedigrees .......apart from show wins ! My present pup is very different , his pedigree is almost all "red" and , so far, I've seen no serious faults in him while he works. I got what I paid for. He is a product of our trial system so I see no reason to change that system.

Where hunting spaniels "close" is concerned I think this is a left-over from the days of 50 or more years ago when Britain was swarming with rabbits. A "missed" rabbit could get you eliminated from a trial and so the handlers made missing rabbits less likely by training a very close, tight pattern.
I.M.O. that tight, close pattern is no longer needed in our trials, there isn't enough rabbits but the judges have been indoctrinated into thinking it is the best way to hunt a spaniel.........so folk like me wouldn't last long in a trial !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

It would be a rare occasion for me to run in a 'Test' .One possibly two a year. Just for kicks and normally a puppy for the ambience' .

Regarding the point made earlier with shoe shiners pattern in fear of missing game in a trial ,I would think more game would be missed if all the ground between the two guns on either side of the handler was not covered.

No matter the judge or preferences ,the good ole ''eyewipe'' requires no judgement other than 'Bravo' .

[gundogguy]

The warrior princess is on the prowl. FC Zeta is Now FC CFC Zeta having won the Southern Ontario trial today running against 24 dogs, making her Canadian Field trial championship.
Now qualified in the US Open and Canadian Open Champs.

[Sharon]

Isn't that great! Beautiful dog. Where in ON was the Championship ?

[Trekmoor]

She's going from strength to strength, well done.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Isn't that great! Beautiful dog. Where in ON was the Championship ?

Fisherville Ontario, For the win! Zeta runs again today under different judges .

Next weekend Erin Ontario May 21 and 22nd.

[Sharon]

Is there a website where I can get the directions to the trial grounds? Id'd like to see that next weekend.

[CDN_Cocker]

Yes Sharon, here's the event page - http://www.dogshow.ca/888?club=Central- ... aniel-Club

[Sharon]

Thanks very much. I'll be the old lady with the white hair.

[CDN_Cocker]

Wish I could make it out. Training has been on the back burner.

[gundogguy]

Is there a website where I can get the directions to the trial grounds? Id'd like to see that next weekend.

FC CFC Zeta takes a second place in the Sunday trial Heading Erin Ontario for a day off and then prepping for trials there Saturday and Sunday.
Been a great weekend here in Fisherville Making Champ on Saturday coming back on Sunday with a Second

[gundogguy]

She's going from strength to strength, well done.

Bill T.

Bill I think you are wee bit prophetic Zeta is really building some momentum!

[chrokeva]

Wooohooo congratulations!!

[crackerd]

She's going from strength to strength, well done.

Bill T.

Bill I think you are wee bit prophetic Zeta is really building some momentum!

Tearing it up, for sure, gundogguy - congratulations. Question: Will you keep campaigning Zeta for years to come given she's still rather young but already CFC/FC (and acquiring all-age points like a machine), or will you give her another year or two on the circuit aiming at a national championship? I know how it's done with retrievers that become FC but it's also worth noting that dogs in all-age retriever FTs is about 71/2 years old.

MG

[polmaise]

The warrior princess is on the prowl. FC Zeta is Now FC CFC Zeta having won the Southern Ontario trial today running against 24 dogs, making her Canadian Field trial championship.
Now qualified in the US Open and Canadian Open Champs.