Gun Dog Forum

welsh wrote:With 15 guests for Xmas and both my energetic dogs ... and my little sister's kids being afraid of dogs ... and signs the pup is coming into heat ... I felt my mother needed wine.

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I try not to limit myself to needing to have a reason for wine

I must say 'Morris' is not the best commentator in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9uxyZ ... e=youtu.be

No commentating needed. I sure enjoyed that video. Thanks.
Definitely reinforces that the best breed = the terrain.

polmaise wrote:I must say 'Morris' is not the best commentator in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9uxyZ ... e=youtu.be

Thanks Robt.Morris must be posturing for more air time. Though it was nice to see an effort to promote new folks that Q'd their 1st Champs.
As a promotional trailer would have enjoyed seeing more dog work and less chit chat!

gundogguy wrote:

polmaise wrote:I must say 'Morris' is not the best commentator in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9uxyZ ... e=youtu.be

Thanks Robt.Morris must be posturing for more air time. Though it was nice to see an effort to promote new folks that Q'd their 1st Champs.
As a promotional trailer would have enjoyed seeing more dog work and less chit chat!

I think it's their way to get one to buy the full video ,showing the dog work

2017 UK Springer National Championship trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erMjRTH_xEg

I really enjoyed this video. The attire and overall atmosphere seems very traditional. I'm hunting a preserve next week that is run by a gentleman from **edit** south west England. He has photos of himself in this type of attire and also owns Springer spaniels. I will have to ask him if he has ever attended an event like this. Thanks for the post!

http://www.royalunitedgb.com/index.php? ... ommon/home

Maybe someone on here from the area knows his family. I believe they raise birds there as well.


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polmaise wrote:I must say 'Morris' is not the best commentator in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9uxyZ ... e=youtu.be

Thanks for sharing polmaise. Love seeing the championship footage every year. Almost makes me want to buy the full copy.

Mild weather made for some good training opportunities last week. Here's a shot of the little fella after some pile work. Getting lots of snow today so training will take a pause again.

I cannot see a thing in photo except blurry grass and leaves you guys have go to learn how to resize your pics!

It used to always post them properly now I can't even post from photo bucket.

When a giant pic gets posted do the rest of the previous post get shrunken down on everyone's screens or is it just my settings?

Mike

gundogguy wrote:I cannot see a thing in photo except blurry grass and leaves you guys have go to learn how to resize your pics!

I enlarge this photo when posted I could not even see much

Wing tipped Cock bird took me lil dog for quite a hike out of the field into a big wood, they can run but they cannot hide!

The Springer world in the USA has a new AFC dog. FC CFC Zeta finishes her requirements for the Amatuer all-age stake. Taking the Blue at Southern Tier FTA, New York
With No-whistle,great finds and spot-on no handled retrieves. Under the precise handle of Nancy Jo Standish Zeta is known as FC CFC AFC Zeta

Congratulations!! I saw Zeta work once so am not surprised.

Congrats

Great

Well done ! What comes next ?

Bill T.

Trekmoor wrote:Well done ! What comes next ?

Bill T.

Ha Ha Lol prolly lots of time on the fur-niture! Well she will get to some time prowling the prairies and woodlands in the Autumn in search of Pheasants,Grouse and Woodcock, maybe an odd duck here and there.
It has been a marvelous 3.5 yr ride for sure. For a wee dog that has never broke in training or trial never failed a retrieve, an only was put out a trial twice for passing a bird on the course, and she runs like a train, She is certainly the dog spanielers dream of.

January 2017, my Setter 2X FC Seattle’s Jack Flash died at 13, I lost a leg to flesh eating bacteria after a fishing accident in Guatamala, my business partners sold off our business assets while I was in hospital. Forced to move into apartment that only allows dogs up to 35 pounds..

Now the important part: Determined to continue to hunt with a dog, I recently tested out a tracked wheelchair at a hunt preserve on pen raised Chukar and a borrowed Setter. . It worked very well, dog points, I drive up close in the chair, walk to front of dog, flush bird , shoot, dog retrieves, except for one thing, this Setter, like most of my previous dogs would rather hunt than retrieve and are not enthusiastic about retrieving in heavy cover. and water. I’m able to shoot, walk short distances but cannot walk in heavy cover or water so aggressive, successful retrieving has become more important to me.

So with my dog weight limit and retrieving issue I’m thinking about a flushing dog , like a small Springer, Water Spaniel, Boykin or Cocker. I’ve had 12 setters over the years and have successfully trained all but the first one. Never had a Retriever or flushing dog.

So, I’m hoping those of you who hunt flushing and retrieving dogs can help me decide………..

Issues:
With flusher, will I have time to stand to shooting position? Or, will I have shoot from seat?
Will my training experience successfully translate to training a flusher
How do these guys do hunting Quail, Prairie Grouse, and Pheasant?
How will I be able to see these tail-less dogs?
Pros and cons of pointing dogs vs. flushing dogs for disabled hunter?

P.S. Friend who’s a Brittany breeder tells me that Brits are great retrievers and some females weigh 30 pounds. I’ve seen a lot of Brits work and have yet to see one that could out retrieve a Springer. But I’ve been wrong about a lot of things. What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for any comments, criticisms, or opinions

I want to wait and see where this thread goes, I have some thoughts on this subject yet they are still in development.

Glad to hear you're bouncing back Tekoa. Some random thoughts but not hard answers to your concerns as I have zero experience with any of your issues.......My opinion is that a flushing spaniel can be trained to accommodate your needs. I have personally seen a 90 year old gentleman handling a FBESS in the field while using a walker. It's all in the training. I think training for a tracked wheel chair hunter would be quite an interesting adventure with new problems and solutions popping up often. I'd consider hooking up with a trainer who has some experience with your needs and that guy might be difficult to find. Failing that, I might have to consider two trainers who would be willing to work together.....a spaniel gun dog trainer and a service dog trainer. I would also think that to be sure you don't exceed your 35# standard that you might want to stick with an ECS. This is a great subject and I hope you keep us updated with the details of your journey.

Redleg,

Thanks........

I had considered a trainers help to get me lined up on the methods of retrieve training, but your idea of finding a flushing dog guy with some exposure to disabled hunting is great............ I started looking this morning and already found a guy who has trained a few disabled vets with leg amputations to hunt upland birds with dogs. He's a lab trainer but his own dog is an American Water Spaniel! I haven't been able to speak to him yet but hopefully he'll be able to help.

I have guided and handled dogs for handicap hunters on a numbers of occasions in a game farm situation. The experiences were always enjoyable for them , me, and the dogs
Now for which breeds, I would prefer in this situation, AWS or Boykins possible ECS. Actually the Clumber and Sussex would be excellent as far as personality however size would be an issue. Dogs will not be affected by your situation, they will learn,hopefully as you do however your pointing dog back ground may have to be unlearned. Retriever Trainers are also a good bet as far as teaching the Non-slip issues that will be very beneficial for in your situation.

Some random thoughts triggered by your advice:

To my eye the Retrievers No-Slip retrieving (Fetch!) looks a lot like the Flushing Spaniels sit to flush and (Hup!) which looks like the pointers steady to wing and shot ( no command unless dog creeps, then 'Whoa!) . After the shot the Retriever does some very fancy locating from sight and memory, the Spaniel locates by sight, air scent, and ground scent(trailing), the Pointer does the same thing except we call it 'hunt dead'.

My guess is that training a Spaniel to sit to flush is probably very similar to training a pointing dog to be steady to wing and shot. So I think my experience will translate to some of the Flusher training but I'm quite sure how and I have been wrong before . So, I think I will attempt to find a trainer that will train me before I start to ruin my pup.

Of greater concern to me is the process of training range and quartering. Pointing dogs (at least mine) set their own range and while they turn when I tell them too they don't quarter but rather, hunt birdy cover at significant speeds. So, other than hand and whistle commands to stop, go on , turn, come in I have never trained any range or hunt pattern.

Dogs. I've been around a few AWS , and many ACS, a few ECS, liked em all. Never seen any Boykins except in Videos, but I like what I have seen, Boykin looks and acts like a Chessie except one third the size, a little brown SUV.........Also the Turkey Hunting angle is intriguing.

Heard lots of pros and a few cons to these breeds.

AWS hard to train. ACS bunch of health and behavioral issues, including Spontaneous rage. Boykins Hips, ear infections.

All of them can handle finding and retrieving game roughly equally well, so this will be a tough decision.

Two examples of colors available

To my eye the Retrievers No-Slip retrieving (Fetch!) looks a lot like the Flushing Spaniels sit to flush and (Hup!) which looks like the pointers steady to wing and shot ( no command unless dog creeps, then 'Whoa!) . After the shot the Retriever does some very fancy locating from sight and memory, the Spaniel locates by sight, air scent, and ground scent(trailing), the Pointer does the same thing except we call it 'hunt dead'.

Your close on this though finished product looks a lot different than when the process was started.

My guess is that training a Spaniel to sit to flush is probably very similar to training a pointing dog to be steady to wing and shot. So I think my experience will translate to some of the Flusher training but I'm quite sure how and I have been wrong before . So, I think I will attempt to find a trainer that will train me before I start to ruin my pup.

I have done both Spaniels and Pointers I always thought my approach was different between the two styles of dogs, the similarities stop right after consistency on the part of the human.

Of greater concern to me is the process of training range and quartering. Pointing dogs (at least mine) set their own range and while they turn when I tell them too they don't quarter but rather, hunt birdy cover at significant speeds. So, other than hand and whistle commands to stop, go on , turn, come in I have never trained any range or hunt pattern.


Yes this will be and issue. read this thread..viewtopic.php?f=69&t=52154


Dogs. I've been around a few AWS , and many ACS, a few ECS, liked em all. Never seen any Boykins except in Videos, but I like what I have seen, Boykin looks and acts like a Chessie except one third the size, a little brown SUV.........Also the Turkey Hunting angle is intriguing.

Heard lots of pros and a few cons to these breeds.

AWS hard to train. ACS bunch of health and behavioral issues, including Spontaneous rage. Boykins Hips, ear infections.

All of them can handle finding and retrieving game roughly equally well, so this will be a tough decision. Your need for small seems to be your limit I would think Field Bred English Cocker would the best fit [/quote]

This one was born from good breeding and came for training when the 'wheels fell off'.(just gone off doing hunting and the handler was the Taxi Driver with a badge on the truck window)
The dog was fine when it was born,so was the owner. The ability of both were not in question ,just the able to do it. With the ability of wanting to do it combined with the desire to do it , I'm sure it matters not the breed , but it helps when the handler and dog can go where the game is .
A mile stone for this one .....as it doesn't require any disability any more .
Can the owner take it to the same place ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfbzBKpzeqA

Gundogguy,

Following your advice , I've been out looking at the ECS. Turns out a friend of mine who has always had Springers has recently started training two of his own ECSs. So I went out to see them work. Energetic little critters, a lot faster, stronger and with much greater stamina than I expected. I was really impressed with their retrieving. Not intimidated by heavy cover and relentless in finding downed birds.

They hunt close but don't potter, cover a lot of ground very thoroughly Now if they only had tails!

Spent some time finding some trainers and breeders. The breeders are sure proud of these dogs, puppy prices are around $1200. I'm definitely going to need help with the quartering and retrieving training. One thing I was concerned about is how they would handle being around the chair. These guys pretty much ignored the chair, stayed away from it until it was not moving and then came right up to me to get their props or hand me a bird. So maybe that won't be a big deal.

In any event, ECS looks like the right choice, for size and ability.

Thanks for the advice.........

tekoa wrote:Gundogguy,

Following your advice , I've been out looking at the ECS. Turns out a friend of mine who has always had Springers has recently started training two of his own ECSs. So I went out to see them work. Energetic little critters, a lot faster, stronger and with much greater stamina than I expected. I was really impressed with their retrieving. Not intimidated by heavy cover and relentless in finding downed birds.

They hunt close but don't potter, cover a lot of ground very thoroughly Now if they only had tails!

Spent some time finding some trainers and breeders. The breeders are sure proud of these dogs, puppy prices are around $1200. I'm definitely going to need help with the quartering and retrieving training. One thing I was concerned about is how they would handle being around the chair. These guys pretty much ignored the chair, stayed away from it until it was not moving and then came right up to me to get their props or hand me a bird. So maybe that won't be a big deal.

In any event, ECS looks like the right choice, for size and ability.

Thanks for the advice.........

There you go! Field Bred Cockers will fit your needs quite well!

gundogguy wrote:

tekoa wrote:Gundogguy,

Following your advice , I've been out looking at the ECS. Turns out a friend of mine who has always had Springers has recently started training two of his own ECSs. So I went out to see them work. Energetic little critters, a lot faster, stronger and with much greater stamina than I expected. I was really impressed with their retrieving. Not intimidated by heavy cover and relentless in finding downed birds.

They hunt close but don't potter, cover a lot of ground very thoroughly Now if they only had tails!

Spent some time finding some trainers and breeders. The breeders are sure proud of these dogs, puppy prices are around $1200. I'm definitely going to need help with the quartering and retrieving training. One thing I was concerned about is how they would handle being around the chair. These guys pretty much ignored the chair, stayed away from it until it was not moving and then came right up to me to get their props or hand me a bird. So maybe that won't be a big deal.

In any event, ECS looks like the right choice, for size and ability.

Thanks for the advice.........

There you go! Field Bred Cockers will fit your needs quite well!

Aye! - New world of gundog fun forthcoming, Tekoa! Congratulations on your new cocker pup to come.

MG

tekoa wrote:Gundogguy,

Following your advice , I've been out looking at the ECS. Turns out a friend of mine who has always had Springers has recently started training two of his own ECSs. So I went out to see them work. Energetic little critters, a lot faster, stronger and with much greater stamina than I expected. I was really impressed with their retrieving. Not intimidated by heavy cover and relentless in finding downed birds.

They hunt close but don't potter, cover a lot of ground very thoroughly Now if they only had tails!

Spent some time finding some trainers and breeders. The breeders are sure proud of these dogs, puppy prices are around $1200. I'm definitely going to need help with the quartering and retrieving training. One thing I was concerned about is how they would handle being around the chair. These guys pretty much ignored the chair, stayed away from it until it was not moving and then came right up to me to get their props or hand me a bird. So maybe that won't be a big deal.

In any event, ECS looks like the right choice, for size and ability.

Thanks for the advice.........

Just a thought, given that you're confined to a wheelchair and/or have lost a leg, you don't have to worry about size restrictions from your apartment. You're covered by ADA laws. Get your doc to sign off that he's a service dog.

I do know a woman that trained a GSP to be her service dog. Its pretty neat, and a heck of a dog.

Gundog,

In Washington State, if a new tenant does not have a trained service animal at the time of occupation of rental property the landlord may apply restrictions on the size and breed of any animal acquired during the lease period, as well as proof of service training that is relevant to the tenants disability. Although a landlord may not ask an individual to prove his disability, state law permits the landlord to ask for a doctor to certify disability before allowing the service animal.

This state law is being challenged by a number of Disabled Rights Organizations in State and Federal Court. The Hospitality and Housing Industries are supporting the state law and are pressing for legislation that will require Service Animal testing, certification, and licensing at Federal and State levels.

Even if the Feds try to enforce the ADA in WA, it'll be many years before any clear resolution.

My landlord, Shag Housing, is leading the Housing Industry Lobby and has a 25 pound limit on dogs but has allowed me to have a 35 pound limit, probably to keep me from joining the suit, since as a tenant I would have standing to sue. (sic?)What a hassle.............

Besides, I'm getting hooked on Cockers, and getting excited about training a flushing, retrieving dynamo................

I would think a close working pointing dog would be easier to hunt with from a wheelchair. It would give you more of an opportunity to get ready for the shot. Not saying a flusher is bad but they are turbo charged

CDN_Cocker wrote:I would think a close working pointing dog would be easier to hunt with from a wheelchair. It would give you more of an opportunity to get ready for the shot. Not saying a flusher is bad but they are turbo charged

Re read the original post of Tekoa, hunting or shooting is not the issue. Small Size and retrieving talent is much more important to Tekoa at this time. FBEC's will give the shooter ample time to make preparations for a shot. There are at least 4 steps in the process of a successful shot, my hunch is that Tecoa knows them well. Seated or standing he will bag game in a consistent manner.
Over the years guiding folks that were unknown quantities before the outing always bagged more birds over my springers than they did over my Eng. setter's and Brits.
Tekoa, sounds to me like a very experienced dog man and upland hunter, just by the questions he asked I wish I had a FBEC to sell or give him.

This exchange highlights the crux of my dilemma.

It is true that in an ideal situation, dog points, I drive up behind him, dismount, walk or more accurately, hobble to the front of the dog, flush the bird, shoot and send the dog for the dead bird. Easier than shooting quickly from the chair.

Obviously, having had 12 Setters over the last 40 years, I’m partial to pointy dogs. I love to watch them run, cover huge amounts of ground, point with style and intensity, race to pick up and return a quail so he could get back to hunting asap.

I also spent many hours walking many miles in prairie grass, after the speed demons had scattered busted coveys for miles around, walked two hundred yards to a dog on point only to find the birds long gone on foot. Or spent half an hour trying to find dead birds in swamps, berry bushes, ivy tangles, and other nasty brush while my dog points from 10 yards away or half- heartedly dashes in and out of brush tunnels pretending to hunt dead. These dogs would always find the birds again no matter how far they were or how long it took. On many days afield I walked way more than 6 miles chasing birds and dogs.

Hunting from a track chair imposes some serious physical limits on hunting range. The chair, in its current configuration (I have a solution to that, Lithium Batteries, but it’s expensive and I may not be able pull it off) can only cover a maximum of 10 miles on a battery charge; in hilly terrain this could be as little as 6 miles. So, hunting certain species on the prairie, e.g. Grays, (Huns) Chickens, Sharps with big going pointy dogs is problematic.

I could restrict the range of another Setter, and force him to beat the brush on retrieves but hunting Grays, Quail, and Pheasants in riparian areas, pasture, flatish CRP with a close working dog that can handle retrieving from hedgerows, streamside Russian Olives, Hawthorn, Blackberry, Cattails, rivers, swamps, etc. seems more feasible.
And then there’s the size issue. I have trapped myself, at for the next couple of years into a dog that weighs no more than 35 pounds, which leaves me only one pointy dog choice, a Brittany. So, I’m continuing to debate with myself, but I think it’s got to be a Brit or a Cocker.

Thanks again guys for the conversation, it’s helping me clarify how to proceed…………

Sorry about this late reply, I've been having computer problems. I have owned and worked a few brittanys and a few cockers. I.M.O. the cockers would better suit your needs. The cocker is a terrific little hunting breed and every one of the cockers I've owned has also been a very keen retriever needing very little training done on the retrieving. I'm not trying to knock the Brittany breed by saying this , they are terrific little dogs too but I do think the cocker better suits your needs.

Must admit to being surprised cockers cost so much over there. Probably that is because there are fewer good lines of working cockers in America ? The breed is very, very popular in Britain .....one of the shoots I go to has more cockers working there than springers or Labradors.

I don't know how you feel about "cuddly" dogs but there is a saying over here that goes ....." You don't have a cocker, you wear it !" The breed does like to get really close to you .....like up on top of you whenever it is not working ! My demon cocker "Charlie" will, if permitted , even climb up onto my shoulders in order to mark down fallen birds better when I sit down during picking-up at shoots. Be aware of this cocker trait , it is pretty common . Cockers are full of character and it ain't all good as Keith Erlandson wrote about 50 years ago !

Bill T.

For you history buffs and spanieliers here is a link to a nifty article about field trials from Sports Illustrated 1955.
Points out the differences between Spaniels and Pointing dog triala very nicely!

https://www.si.com/vault/1955/11/14/597 ... and-people

Now isn't that an interesting read. Thanks:)

Great article

Good to see some of the "old" spaniel kennel names in that article such as "Ludlovian" and "Saighton."

Bill T.