SHOOTING UNPOINTED BIRDS

[Neil]

Would you all please share where you learned not shoot to birds that are not handled properly? Is it books, tapes, DVDs, word of mouth? Please quote, as best you recall, what they said and who they are.

Thanks in advance, I am really trying to learn.

Neil Mace

[displaced_texan]

I was taught by a couple of friends not to shoot a bird that I didn't want handled the same way again.

[ROTTnBRITT]

I'm not a pro but it makes sence to me in that the if the dog runs in on a bird and flushes it, you shoot the bird and the dog gets the bird in his mouth. The dog is being rewarded for flushing the bird. And thinks flushing equals birds and not the pointing and holding equals birds.
If a bird flushed wild and the dog hasn't scented it and you shoot it, I don't see where that would cause the same problem.

More times than not, if you are hunting with a pointing dog and it rips a bird, your not going to be within shooting distance anyways.

[S&J gsp]

Neil I'm in the same frame of mind you are I've shot unpointed birds and have even let pups and young dogs catch birds on the ground my thoughts were if I bring his prey drive way up if I make a mistake later in training I can go back to birds to help the dog forget about what I did wrong. It may take me longer to break a dog than most people but I don't do it for a living so if it takes me 6 months to have one where I want it no problem for me.

[RoostersMom]

I've always heard it from trainers I work with. However, I do have a pointer that learned to hunt possums because we shot one over her in her early days. It was her first year and a guy I hunted with shot a possum in front of her. She was gone in another fencerow about a half hour later and brought another possum (retrieved it to me). She has retrieved at least one possum per year to me every year since then.

[gonehuntin']

I was actually taught by an old pro in Ca. Not to do it, but even if I had not been, common sense dog training tells me to never reinforce an undesirable behavior. When you continually reinforce an undesirable behavior it takes the dog far longer to learn and fact is, some of the poorly bred ones may never.

Just to reinforce, we're talking about birds the dog roads in on and busts, not incidental flushes.

I never worry about making a dog birds; I make them birds in the yard and reinforce or develop in the field. In the yard the dogs retrieve live birds from 8 weeks on, point live birds from 8 weeks on, but never at the same time. Chasing a bird is a no-no.

To me all dog training is common sense and allowing and reinforcing unwanted behavior in a dog is not common sense. Of course, I don't agree with the guys that don't want a pointing dog to retrieve either, although I do respect their view on that. Training time is shortened considerably when a dog is not allowed to pursue unwanted behavior and taught from the start what the trainer believes desirable behavior is.

[Neil]

With full appreciation for the value of your personal experience and common sence, I was really asking if anyone could quote a noted trainer on the matter. Anecdotal reports certainly have value, but I would like to know if any famous pros have endorced your observations.

I just do not remember reading, seeing, or hearing such a proclamation from a nationally known trainer.

Thanks for your contributions to my education.

Neil

[gonehuntin']

Perhaps you should post a detailed synopsis of why you think shooting upointed birds DOES make training a young dog easier?

I would truly be interested in your thought on this.

[ROTTnBRITT]

Why do you care? You either agree or you don't.
There are different methods to finishing a bird dog. Trainers train the way the makes sence to them and works for them. Just like all the post on here that say find a program you like and stick to it. Well then why not just pick the one with the best name if it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone can prove one is better than the other. Its all personal preference.

[Neil]

Perhaps you should post a detailed synopsis of why you think shooting upointed birds DOES make training a young dog easier?

I would truly be interested in your thought on this.

I am not trying to teach, I want to learn which well known trainers advise against it.

But I won't dodge a question. Once a dog learns he can't readily catch a bird, which takes until about 6 months old, they need birds shot for them to keep their motors reved up. I have heard John Rex Gates, Buddy Smith, Gerald Tracy, Joe Walker, Hoyle Eaton, and other Hall of Fame trainers say the same, plus Randy Anderson, Jim Holman, Robin Gates, and nearly every pro I know that have ran in a national championshilp. Most, like Delmar and Rick Smith, Hitchcox, Heckert, etc, don't say much about it, they just do it.

But I am not arguing, I really want to know which experts promote the never shoot policy, you would think there are hundreds. It would be mentioned in every training book, DVD, and seminar.

So please educate me.

[whatsnext]

If you have something to say just say it and stop trying to bait people just to tell them they are wrong so you can correct them and feel better about your vast knowledge and ability to name drop.

[gonehuntin']

But I won't dodge a question. Once a dog learns he can't readily catch a bird, which takes until about 6 months old, they need birds shot for them to keep their motors reved up.

I agree with that statement, just not how you're stating it's done. You're saying to shoot the bird, pointed or not. I agree they need bird contact, like retrieving clip wings or shot birds when correctly handled, but I don't agree that shooting a bird when a dog blatantly busts it does ANYTHING for the dog but promote bad habits.

But if it works for you, do it. Personally, I don't think you're comprehending what those trainers are saying. Or, you're taking it in the wrong context.

[vartz04]

I'v shot exactly 1 bird that nmy weim found that he flushed. That was only to reward him for finding the bird and to make sure he knew what we were doing out there.

He flushed the next 3 birds he found and I didn't shoot. He then pointed one that I flushed and shot and since then he has pointed every one while hunting. I did nothing with him the whole off season and when I set 4 quail out he flushed the 1st and then pointed the next 3 which I shot. My guess is in 2 weeks when we go hunting he will point his finds.

[slistoe]

Are you talking about a dog that is staunch?

[vartz04]

Me? No. He's not. He's only 1-1/2 and a weim. He's maturing slow. I'm not going to try to get him "perfected' until after this season. He was only 7 months old the first season

[Sharon]

Neil, I enjoy watching you buck some of the traditionally held beliefs . It's what good teachers do to get students to think about what they believe and why.
In another post, you said you don't pick up the dog and take him back to his original spot where he broke. I've been thinking on that, in tandem with not shooting a bird for the dog who broke.
I'm wondering if we sometime attribute human thinking to dogs. Does the dog say to himself,"If I break, he's going to bring me back here? If I screw up he's going to take me back to the truck?" A child would respond to those consequences appropriately , but I'm not sure about a dog.

[slistoe]

Sorry, replying to Neil.

[Neil]

If you have something to say just say it and stop trying to bait people just to tell them they are wrong so you can correct them and feel better about your vast knowledge and ability to name drop.

Thank you for your contribution..

[Neil]

Are you talking about a dog that is staunch?

No, I am talking about the first season, usually 6 - 9 months old. I have been known to carry a full choke with 5's to get it done.

I still think someone can come up with a quote that says never shoot an unpointed bird, just waiting.

GH,

I have toted the gun for some of those guys, kinda hard to take it out of context. Up to about a year and a half they don't much care what a dog does with a bird.

Sharon,

I neither take them back to the point of infraction nor put them on the truck, although seen both done with good results. I just stop them with the e-collar after they are staunch and know to be steady, sometime around 18 to 24 months.

[whatsnext]

If you have something to say just say it and stop trying to bait people just to tell them they are wrong so you can correct them and feel better about your vast knowledge and ability to name drop.

Thank you for your contribution..

My contribution is better than beating the dead horses that you always do while riding on someone else's coattail...

[Nutmeg247]

This is a very good question. I was all set to say I'd read it in a training book or two or three, but am not so sure I have. If I didn't read it in a book, then alternatively I know I had to read it on the internet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=E8ugIR ... ds&f=false this is the only book reference that comes up on the first page of a "Shooting Unpointed birds" Google. Versatile Dogs, Gundog Forum, and a few other internet chat sites come up.

So, my first guess is I read it here or on Versatile Dogs.

In terms of training theory, I guess what the dog is doing when the bird flushes would make a big difference, particularly whether the dog was upwind or downwind? But that's a different question than whether it's something that's commonly agreed and written about widely...hmm, thought-provoking for sure.

[MillerClemsonHD]

For whatever reason I'll take your bait again. There is no way any of the pros are going to take your bait and disagree as they have no need for public pissing matches. Why do you think they all quit posting?

Since the poster in the other thread had started to break their dog I suggested they do their hunting with their blank gun for a bit until hunter and dog gained some confidence. My comments were in the context of the advanced training to break the dog had started. I am far from being in the don't ever let them knock and chase, etc the first year. I also don't break puppies bc I want to develop a dogs full potential not just chase some ribbons. The rules have to change once you start breaking the dog you can't change the rules and shoot anything that flies, and then go to the training field and expect to make progress breaking them.

If it was my dog I wouldn't have started breaking it, It would have been on the praries knocking and chasing this summer, getting hunted and exposure to trials and what not this fall, and then broke next spring summer.

I don't think you will find too many trainers that will take a dog in the middle of being broke and take them out and no matter what they do kill birds over them. I also don't think you will have much luck getting any of them to come on here and argue with you either.

Are you talking about a dog that is staunch?

No, I am talking about the first season, usually 6 - 9 months old. I have been known to carry a full choke with 5's to get it done.

I still think someone can come up with a quote that says never shoot an unpointed bird, just waiting.

GH,

I have toted the gun for some of those guys, kinda hard to take it out of context. Up to about a year and a half they don't much care what a dog does with a bird.

Sharon,

I neither take them back to the point of infraction nor put them on the truck, although seen both done with good results. I just stop them with the e-collar after they are staunch and know to be steady, sometime around 18 to 24 months.

[gonehuntin']

GH,

I have toted the gun for some of those guys, kinda hard to take it out of context. Up to about a year and a half they don't much care what a dog does with a bird.

That would be another major difference@, you're apparently talking trial dog's, I'm talking hunting dogs. By the time my dogs are 18 months they're obedience trained, forced, steady to wsf, steady at a blind, broken in decoys. A very huntable but very inexperienced dog. Then I de-tune them.

I also think many trainers left things unsaid because to us, they're blindingly obvious.

[Neil]

Thank you Nutmeg, for doing my research for me.

I hope everyone reads your link.

I am really trying to avoid a debate on the issue of shooting or not shooting unpointed birds. Whatever you do that gets the results you like is right.

Anyone else have a reference?

Thanks for all the responses,

Neil

[cmc274]

Neil,

I'd like to tap into your vast knowledge and experience. Can you please describe a workout where you carried a gun and shot bumped birds for these AA trainers? I assume you must have been check cording dogs?

[Tanner01]

Don't all trainers preach repetition. If you let your dog repeat undesired behavior, is that not where the problem begins? If the dog flushes and chases which is usually fun for the dog and then you shoot and the dog retrieves, why would it ever point again? Not to say that all bumps are on purpose, how could you tell the difference between an accidental bump verse an intentional bump? I want my dog to point and since she is crazy to retrieve a bird she has learned that a flush is not the desired behavior for her reward, she must be steady on an encounter.

[Neil]

Neil,

I'd like to tap into your vast knowledge and experience. Can you please describe a workout where you carried a gun and shot bumped birds for these AA trainers? I assume you must have been check cording dogs?

Most are using a Buddy Stick and not a check cord, I have been known to carry a full choke with 5's. The whole idea is to build desire, so many times a 6 to 12 month old dog is close enough for a shot, most will point for a bit.

But I keep telling you all this is not a debate about which way is best. Whatever works.

I have no doubt that some dog writers have written about not shooting unpointed bird, perhaps a large number, I just wanted to know who they are.

Instead of references, I have had arguments and a few derisive comments.

Can we please get back to the question?

[gonehuntin']

Alternately Neil, can you quote a traIners book that DOES promote shooting busted birds for a dog in training?

I don't read a lot of books, but I can't remember seeing that in writing.

[gonehuntin']

One of the few books I have is the official training system of the American Hunting dog club, "Training The Sporting Dog"by Smith and Jones, otherwise called "The Orange Book". Many people consider this to be one of the best and most thorough books on dog training ever written.

From page 220: "CAUTION: There is one cardinal rule when working pointing dogs. NO bird is ever shot that has been flushed by the dog until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall." "After the dog is completely steady, you may decide to teach him to flush on command, or shoot birds that he accidentally flushed, provided that he stops to flush and does not chase."

[slistoe]

Are you talking about a dog that is staunch?

No, I am talking about the first season, usually 6 - 9 months old. I have been known to carry a full choke with 5's to get it done.

I usually just hope that I will be somewhere close enough to shoot a bird for them. As long as they are finding birds I could care less what they do with them and for sure will shoot them if I have a chance. I don't believe I have seen anything written by any trainer that would dispute such a practice.
When the dog is in the process of being steadied I will be shoosy in the shots I take.
When the dog is trained I will shoot birds on all encounters. The dog will behave properly - I will see to it.

[slistoe]

One of the few books I have is the official training system of the American Hunting dog club, "Training The Sporting Dog"by Smith and Jones, otherwise called "The Orange Book". Many people consider this to be one of the best and most thorough books on dog training ever written.

From page 220: "CAUTION: There is one cardinal rule when working pointing dogs. NO bird is ever shot that has been flushed by the dog until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall." "After the dog is completely steady, you may decide to teach him to flush on command, or shoot birds that he accidentally flushed, provided that he stops to flush and does not chase."

20 some training books on my shelf, and I don't have that one.

[gonehuntin']

From Dave Walker:" When you're teaching your dog to be steady to wing, never shoot over him."

The Bird Dog Training Manual. Under "steady To Wing.

[gonehuntin']

One of the few books I have is the official training system of the American Hunting dog club, "Training The Sporting Dog"by Smith and Jones, otherwise called "The Orange Book". Many people consider this to be one of the best and most thorough books on dog training ever written.

From page 220: "CAUTION: There is one cardinal rule when working pointing dogs. NO bird is ever shot that has been flushed by the dog until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall." "After the dog is completely steady, you may decide to teach him to flush on command, or shoot birds that he accidentally flushed, provided that he stops to flush and does not chase."

20 some training books on my shelf, and I don't have that one.

It's a good book with modern systems. The official publication of The American Hunting Dog Club. Take a look at it. "Crackered" turned me on to it.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

From Dave Walker:" When you're teaching your dog to be steady to wing, never shoot over him."

The Bird Dog Training Manual. Under "steady To Wing.

Dave's methods are ever changing. One thing he emphasizes is if the dog is souring on you shoot him a bird. No matter what you're teaching them. That's not in any book, it's straight out of Dave's mouth.

Doug

[gonehuntin']

Dave's methods are ever changing. One thing he emphasizes is if the dog is souring on you shoot him a bird. No matter what you're teaching them. That's not in any book, it's straight out of Dave's mouth.

Doug

There's a lot of things trainers do not found in any book or program. All good trainers continuall tweek and modify and don't need a book or dvd to do it.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

That's my point.

Doug

[gonehuntin']

Doug, what the poster asked is where any of us had seen it in writting. I don't have many training books and I only looked in two of them; that's what I found.

And I agree with those statements when breaking a dog.

[ACooper]

Coming up next, discrediting the sources.... Stay tuned.

[displaced_texan]

Coming up next, discrediting the sources.... Stay tuned.

But he's not trying to argue.

He's just arguing.

[Neil]

Alternately Neil, can you quote a traIners book that DOES promote shooting busted birds for a dog in training?

I don't read a lot of books, but I can't remember seeing that in writing.

And how does that answer my question?

If I asked for the time, 10 of you would tell me I didn't need to know, five would suggest I buy a watch, another would say to use my cell phone.

[Neil]

Coming up next, discrediting the sources.... Stay tuned.

But he's not trying to argue.

He's just arguing.

I will discredit no one. I have known Dave since 1972, i respect his accomplishments. You do realize he is talking about when you break the dog to wing, then not to shhot at all, making the dog around 18 months old.

I don't know the Orange Book guys, but it answers my question.

Thanks

[slistoe]

From Dave Walker:" When you're teaching your dog to be steady to wing, never shoot over him."

The Bird Dog Training Manual. Under "steady To Wing.

Does he advocate teaching the dog steady before its first hunting season?

[Sharon]

[quote="Neil
......................If I asked for the time, 10 of you would tell me I didn't need to know, five would suggest I buy a watch, another would say to use my cell phone."[/quote]

ROFLMBO- Hey. It's a forum.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Alternately Neil, can you quote a traIners book that DOES promote shooting busted birds for a dog in training?

I don't read a lot of books, but I can't remember seeing that in writing.

And how does that answer my question?

If I asked for the time, 10 of you would tell me I didn't need to know, five would suggest I buy a watch, another would say to use my cell phone.

The only way you would ask what time it is if you had already decided what time it was and no matter what anyone else said they would be wrong.

[ezzy333]

[quote="Neil
......................If I asked for the time, 10 of you would tell me I didn't need to know, five would suggest I buy a watch, another would say to use my cell phone."

ROFLMBO- Hey. It's a forum.[/quote]

I think you forgot the 14 that thought you could use most any watch while there were two who said you definitely need a Rolex.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Alternately Neil, can you quote a traIners book that DOES promote shooting busted birds for a dog in training?

I don't read a lot of books, but I can't remember seeing that in writing.

And how does that answer my question?

If I asked for the time, 10 of you would tell me I didn't need to know, five would suggest I buy a watch, another would say to use my cell phone.

The only way you would ask what time it is if you had already decided what time it was and no matter what anyone else said they would be wrong.

Would you please quote what I posted in this thread that justified such a comment?

[mask]

I don't know why some are a little hard on Neil but if you are going to shoot birds that are not pointed (properly) why have a pointer? No trainer I know advocates shooting birds that are not pointed. I know five very well and none think shooting birds not pointed, especially for young dogs, is a good idea.

[birddog1968]

I will shoot an unpointed bird or two when or if getting a youngster fired up or an inexperienced dog tuned into a new species that they seem to be a little clueless to.....

[Chukar12]

I have avoided the details in this because it has gone a place i doubt either side is pleased with...however, I did see a reference to a 6-9 month old dog. If I am forced to speak in generalities, i will say this makes little difference in the scheme of things. I personally do not do it, perhaps as much because I don't care top shoot an un-pointed bird as any other reason. Most people are in an extended process of breaking a dog...by this i suggest that we as amateurs want to see progress toward the finished product sooner rather than later, and there is a fair argument to be made that the longer a dog knocks bird that has a well developed prey drive the more severe the breaking. So most pros try to keep amateurs from putting immature dogs in mature situations.

I believe the apropos rule of thumb is when the dog is ready to be broke, break it. Then the chasing has to end. transgressions come with correction and the dog knows why.

[Nutmeg247]

To the original question, I was on a flight yesterday and had time to read Martha Greenlee's collection of articles, What's the Point, as a Kindle E-book. She has an interview there with Maurice Lindley, where he says he'll take a pup hunting before breaking it, and will shoot birds over the pup if it will let him get close before helping him flush. But, he won't shoot birds the pup bumps or runs over.

So, it seems like he wants at least some point even with a pup.

It was also interesting to me, and related if on a tangent, that Greenlee advocates correcting chasing as a way to eliminate creeping. Since I'd been trying to correct creeping as the first link towards bumping and chasing, this was a neat concept.