Dog not working out in front

[dandrus1022]

I have a 2 year old yellow lab Ive been training him for the past year for pheasant hunting. He knows all his commands and hes got a good nose on him. I keep him inside while i got out and drag the dummy covered in scent around the tall grass and into the woods a ways and hide it, i go and let him out make him heel and sit then release him to go find the bird. He finds the dummy with no problem every time. I need some tips on getting him to work out in front of me in the field when hunting. Ive brought him out 3 times so far this year (season started Oct 2nd) and he just follows me around. when he gets on a scent he'll go right after it and flush the bird but when hes not on scent he just walks behind me. i use the command hunt em up for him to go find birds, ill say the command and he'll run in front for a couple feet then come back? Ive tried repeating the command numerous times but i get the same result. When we go through tall grass or thick cover he gets behind me so i blaze a trail. How can i get him to work out in front of me and stay out in front to find birds?

[slistoe]

There is a saying - "That dog won't hunt."
Take your dog to the field where there are birds. Sit down and have a coffee and a sandwich. Wait for the dog to get bored of sitting around and go hunting. You may not be able to have the dog unlearn 2 years worth of training.

[ezzy333]

There is a saying - "That dog won't hunt."
Take your dog to the field where there are birds. Sit down and have a coffee and a sandwich. Wait for the dog to get bored of sitting around and go hunting. You may not be able to have the dog unlearn 2 years worth of training.

+1 and forget the scent and dummy. At this point he has no idea what you want since all he has done is look for a track in the yard and go get the scented dummy. Scent doesn't fool the dog into thinking it is a bird. And you can walk very slowly while hoping you can walk by a bird or plant a few for him but he has to find a few before he know what you want and where to find them.

You will need patience.

Ezzy

[dandrus1022]

Okay thanks ill try that. He knows how to find birds its just getting him to be in front of me. opening day he had about 8 flushes and i shot 2 birds and my buddy's shot 4 over him

[shags]

Give up the dummy.

Take him hunting someplace where you don't have to blaze a trail.

Then, quit encouraging him. Be quiet. All the talk only encourages him to stay close. Do like Slistoe says.

You could try planting a bird in light cover about 100 feet from where you turn him loose. Let him find it even if it means you lead him to it. Then put him up. Next time plant the bird in the same place. Turn him loose and be quiet. See if he goes to the bird on his own. If it works repeat in different areas at whatever distances you want him to hunt for you. Hopefully he'll get the idea.

[dandrus1022]

Thanks for the tips guys! Ill try those approaches

[UplandJim]

plant a few clipped wing pigeons for him. Don't be in a hurry, let him find them.

[Sharon]

How was his behaviour as a pup? Was he confident/independent.? IF not, it just may be his way of going - not what you want I know. NOT saying you have been too hard on him , but sometimes a dog will hang around you because he is afraid of making a mistake/lost his bravado. Again NOT saying this is the case, but perhaps something to think about.

[dandrus1022]

As a puppy he was very confident

[dandrus1022]

plant a few clipped wing pigeons for him. Don't be in a hurry, let him find them.

Should i drag them into brush or just throw em in and them let find find them?

[shags]

Hounds = groundscent.

Gundogs = airscent.

[UplandJim]

Hounds = groundscent.

Gundogs = airscent.

+1

[dandrus1022]

Give up the dummy.

Take him hunting someplace where you don't have to blaze a trail.

Then, quit encouraging him. Be quiet. All the talk only encourages him to stay close. Do like Slistoe says.

You could try planting a bird in light cover about 100 feet from where you turn him loose. Let him find it even if it means you lead him to it. Then put him up. Next time plant the bird in the same place. Turn him loose and be quiet. See if he goes to the bird on his own. If it works repeat in different areas at whatever distances you want him to hunt for you. Hopefully he'll get the idea.

Do you mean put the bird up or put the dog up like praise him for finding the bird?

[rinker]

I am no expert on labs, or on any thing for that matter. I would run him with another dog that hunts out a little. He may get excited and go with them. It would be very beneficial if birds were found while doing this.

[slistoe]

Give up the dummy.

Take him hunting someplace where you don't have to blaze a trail.

Then, quit encouraging him. Be quiet. All the talk only encourages him to stay close. Do like Slistoe says.

You could try planting a bird in light cover about 100 feet from where you turn him loose. Let him find it even if it means you lead him to it. Then put him up. Next time plant the bird in the same place. Turn him loose and be quiet. See if he goes to the bird on his own. If it works repeat in different areas at whatever distances you want him to hunt for you. Hopefully he'll get the idea.

Do you mean put the bird up or put the dog up like praise him for finding the bird?

Put the dog up. Leave him wanting more.

[gonehuntin']

First realize that there are some labs that just don't like to quarter. They track and retrieve, just don't like to quarter. Best think I have found is to let them work with another dog and until they stay out and range confidently, never recall him to heel. Once he's quartering and confident, then you can reinforce heel.

Salt a field with birds so he ALWAYS has success when he quarters for a bird.

[dandrus1022]

I dont know where id get birds from to throw out? could i take a pheasant wing and put it on a bumper and use that for a bird?

[rinker]

You are going to struggle making a bird dog without birds. A wing or retrieving dummy is not a substitute, in fact, there is no substitute. It sounds like what you need more than any thing is a mentor. Someone that has the type of bird dog that you want to develop that knows what they are doing that could help you get started.

[dandrus1022]

Okay thanks. I know real birds is what i need i just dont know where to get them or what to get? The dog finds birds fine he just walks behind me i just want him out in front.

[vartz04]

Search craigslist for pigeons you may not get great prices but you're bound to find some

[dandrus1022]

Okay ill search around and see if i can find some. Should i clip the wings so the bird cant fly or let the bird fly when he flushes them?

[dandrus1022]

Is there sites you guys know of that sell pigeons? im having trouble finding where i can buy them from

[Sharon]

Okay ill search around and see if i can find some. Should i clip the wings so the bird cant fly or let the bird fly when he flushes them?

Some clip some don't. I don't. I want the dog to see that bird fly off to Never Never land and not fall down a couple yards out. For $2.50 a bird it is cheap training. Tip: -which I learned the hard way - I live in the city and keep pigeons in a dog cage , in the garage for a week or less. Any longer and they won't fly hard. If you don't have a coop where they can fly, only buy a couple a week.

I use small town markets from which to get birds.For your purposes, don't get tumblers or rollers.

[cmc274]

http://providence.craigslist.org/grd/4085571441.html

[slistoe]

Okay ill search around and see if i can find some. Should i clip the wings so the bird cant fly or let the bird fly when he flushes them?

Some clip some don't. I don't. I want the dog to see that bird fly off to Never Never land and not fall down a couple yards out. For $2.50 a bird it is cheap training. Tip: -which I learned the hard way - I live in the city and keep pigeons in a dog cage , in the garage for a week or less. Any longer and they won't fly hard. If you don't have a coop where they can fly, only buy a couple a week.

I use small town markets from which to get birds.For your purposes, don't get tumblers or rollers.

He is training la flushing dog - clip wings will help build drive and do no harm at this point.

[Neil]

Listen to the advice you have been given, it has been good.

And know he is not finding birds if he is behind you, you are finding them.

[Trekmoor]

This idea may not work with your dog but it might be worth thinking about. ....It doesn't really matter too much what a dog hunts as long as it hunts and as long as it is not expected to point its' finds. If you were to let your dog see you throw half a dozen bucks out in front would it go to look for them as retrieves ? If this was done while using a definite hunt command the dog would almost certainly enjoy looking for the bucks. If you stuck canes or similar into the ground and threw bucks out to fall near those canes the dog should, if he likes retrieving, hunt for them to your hunt command. This would also give you a chance to train a bit of turn whistle and arm direction since you could see the canes.

Dogs over here often do what we call "sweeping" .... looking for multiple shot pheasants , partridge etc. at the end of drives at driven shoots. O.K. the birds have already been shot but the dogs do hunt very hard for them. I am well aware that bucks and previously shot birds don't flush or fly but if a dog enjoys looking for either of those things then it is still hunting. About the worst that could happen is that the dog won't look for bucks or if it does begin to really enjoy this game it will expect to grab everything it finds...... but unshot birds wouldn't be easily grabbed. They'd flush and the dog would come to enjoy the shot and the retrieve that followed the flush. It would then begin to hunt in earnest for unshot birds.

This is a wee bit like the way many spaniels are taught to hunt here. I taught mines' in a somewhat similar way using tennis balls instead of bucks and I can assure you they hunt like stink for game now, it was a very easy transition for the dogs to make.

Just a thought......

Bill T.

[Garrison]

I have a lab that was a rescue, showed up at work one day along with a box of kittens. When I first got him he had no interest in anything other than a food bowl. Retrieving desire was non existent much less looking for anything in a field. After a few live bird encounters he saw the light. Then with a little time on the chain watching other dogs go and get bumpers that he thought he should get the drive went through the roof. Pretty sure he would run through broken glass and hot coals to get after a bird now. This may not be the case in your situation but giving them something worth getting excited about can change the game.

[dandrus1022]

Thanks for the advice guys!

[dandrus1022]

This idea may not work with your dog but it might be worth thinking about. ....It doesn't really matter too much what a dog hunts as long as it hunts and as long as it is not expected to point its' finds. If you were to let your dog see you throw half a dozen bucks out in front would it go to look for them as retrieves ? If this was done while using a definite hunt command the dog would almost certainly enjoy looking for the bucks. If you stuck canes or similar into the ground and threw bucks out to fall near those canes the dog should, if he likes retrieving, hunt for them to your hunt command. This would also give you a chance to train a bit of turn whistle and arm direction since you could see the canes.

Dogs over here often do what we call "sweeping" .... looking for multiple shot pheasants , partridge etc. at the end of drives at driven shoots. O.K. the birds have already been shot but the dogs do hunt very hard for them. I am well aware that bucks and previously shot birds don't flush or fly but if a dog enjoys looking for either of those things then it is still hunting. About the worst that could happen is that the dog won't look for bucks or if it does begin to really enjoy this game it will expect to grab everything it finds...... but unshot birds wouldn't be easily grabbed. They'd flush and the dog would come to enjoy the shot and the retrieve that followed the flush. It would then begin to hunt in earnest for unshot birds.

This is a wee bit like the way many spaniels are taught to hunt here. I taught mines' in a somewhat similar way using tennis balls instead of bucks and I can assure you they hunt like stink for game now, it was a very easy transition for the dogs to make.

Just a thought......

Bill T.

Yes if i threw bucks or tennis balls he would go nuts and find them all.

[Trekmoor]

...... So-o-o-o- your dog will already hunt for marked retrieves with great enthusiasm. In that case throw out 2 marked retrieves , one in front and maybe 20 yards left, one in front but maybe 20 yards right. Before doing that however, plant bucks the dog has not seen out beyond those two marks and keep the spacings not too far from each other ....try to form a sort of retrieve lane bounded by bucks on the lane's edges. I use tennis balls for this because if any are not found they cost very little and I don't mind losing a tennis ball or two per hunt session.

I hunt the dog for the balls as I walk forward , moving myself in a zig-zag pattern to encourage the dog to hunt in that way. I do not direct the dog directly to the ball , I like it to make one or two no-find casts between each ball. If the dog does not almost at once find any one of those balls, I don't keep making it go over and over the same area. I move on towards the other balls keeping the flow or continuity of the dogs hunting going.

With a pup or young dog I am likely to be pretty vocal as I hunt it. I can easily shut my gob later when the pup begins to really "go" all by itself. You will need a very definite hunt command and I also like to have a sort of "gee-up" command too for use when a dog begins to slow it's pace or look hesitant. The gee-up command is given very excitedly as an encouragement more than an order.

If you try this be careful, since you have a flushing dog and not a pointer, to always make your bumper or ball placings or throws at about half the distance you would ever want your dog to hunt out to from you. The dog should begin to think it can find things within 20 yards from you so it does not need to run out to beyond easy shotgun range. I am aware that in America you let your dogs hunt out further than we do .......if I had been giving this advice to a British trainer I'd have said "Keep all the tennis balls within ten yards of you."

Don't stand still as your dog hunts for bumpers, keep behind the dog but keep moving forward. Zig-zag your walk just as much as you need to, later on you will not have to do this. As soon as the dog brings you a ball or a bumper just say "good boy" as you take it from him then at once cast him off with vocal command and hand signal to hunt on for the next one.
You should be able to cease to let him see you throw out the two marked retrieves well within one week and if the dog begins to love this game you should be able to either cut down on the number of bumpers out there to be found.......or you should be able to space them further apart to form a longer "lane." Once your dog will hunt like the clappers for a hundred yards or so try to take him where there definetely is game very nearby and hunt him on that game using the previously taught commands to start the hunt and to keep him hunting. The dog will almost certainly take it's general hunt direction from you for up until now every find it has had has been fairly close to you.
It would maybe be nice if you could shoot a couple of birds he flushed but even if you cannot shoot them praise him vocally whenever he flushes a bird.

If a dog really likes retrieving then it will almost certainly hunt too.

Sorry for the long rather rambling post folks.

Bill T.

[dandrus1022]

Thanks for the advice man ill definitely try that!

[Sharon]

Okay ill search around and see if i can find some. Should i clip the wings so the bird cant fly or let the bird fly when he flushes them?

Some clip some don't. I don't. I want the dog to see that bird fly off to Never Never land and not fall down a couple yards out. For $2.50 a bird it is cheap training. Tip: -which I learned the hard way - I live in the city and keep pigeons in a dog cage , in the garage for a week or less. Any longer and they won't fly hard. If you don't have a coop where they can fly, only buy a couple a week.

I use small town markets from which to get birds.For your purposes, don't get tumblers or rollers.

He is training la flushing dog - clip wings will help build drive and do no harm at this point.

Exactly - Forgot it was a flusher. - old age