E-collar discussion - all opinions welcome!

[EvanG]

Do you think you know everything about e-collars? Love 'em? Hate 'em? Want to know more...or perhaps to know better ways to use them?

Far too much has been wrongly assumed, or just misunderstood about these tools for too long. As someone pointed out earlier, discussions about the e-collar often just turn into sparring matches, instead of a useful exchange of real information. So, here goes!

I began training retrievers in 1976. The first pro I studied under was the late Hall of Fame trainer D.L. Walters (not EVER to be confused with Richard Wolters of "Water Dog" fame). D.L. was a staunch opponent of e-collars for a very long time. He came around very slowly, and never adopted any of Rex Carr's ideas. To him the e-collar became a substitute tool to replace stock prods and bird shot, etc. as corporal correction instruments.

As field trial competition became more and more dominated by dogs trained via Carr methodology I became more interested in learning about it. I went to work for John Hahn, a long time Carr student. As his assistant I learned formal Basics using the old Tri Tronics A1-70 unit: 1 button/all it had, every time! Very different from today's units.

Two years later I traveled to Rex Carr's kennel in Escalon, CA to learn from Rex himself. I spent the whole summer with him, and only wished I could have stayed far longer. One thing that made that summer even better was that TT had just begun to market the first ever variable-at-the-transmitter e-collar; the 100-A. It not only had a 2-button, low-med-hi set up on the transmitter, but also had plugs for the receiver; levels 1 - 5. WOW! That was a great jump. If anyone is interested I'll be happy to share how that came to pass.

But e-collar training methods took a giant leap forward at that point in time! Within a 3 month period I advanced from a competitive FT pro to a somewhat dominant one - at least in junior stakes, like Derby & Qualifying. It cannot be said the the e-collar alone did this. It can only be correctly stated that the tool (e-collar), combined with Mr. Carr's brilliant and innovative methods positively revolutionized retriever training forever.

That's my personal historical learning curve regarding the e-collar. The assertions that the e-collar is itself a training method, or that it, by itself, is regarded as the short route to training success is false on its face.

More to come.

EvanG

[kninebirddog]

E Collars like ANY tool we put in our hands is only as good as the person that is using it.

I have seen people talk about Shock collars and "On a general rule" those that refer to the E collar as a Shock Collar have just that mentality they are set out to SHOCK the dog for what ever it is they are trying to get the dog to do or not to do

So just as the collars evolved so has methods in how they can be used.

key thing does the dog Respond or React ... Might look up the difference between the to as I look for my pups and dogs to respond to me and I look for the same when the E collar needs to be used..Only time I want a reaction is when it has to deal with Aversion Training as in chasing unwanted quarry or Snake avoidance

Sure dogs become trial wise collar wise etc...and yes one may have to resort to another trick up the sleeve to remind the dog that it has a job to do but generally that comes more with more the trialers then the average weekend hunter

[polmaise]

Do you think you know everything about e-collars? Love 'em? Hate 'em? Want to know more...or perhaps to know better ways to use them?


More to come.

EvanG

[DonF]

My first e-collar was a TT AI-70. What a turd! One button is great and if I remember it had switch's to plug into the collar to change the intensity of the shock. That thing had something like a 1 sec. delay before it hit the dog and if you were trying to bump the dog, forget it. Only way to do that was by accident. Next I got a DT Systems mod 300. It had one button and switch's and the battery screwed on at the bottom but, shock was instant no built in delay. You could actually nic wih that collar. Then a client showed up with the 100 A. what a nice collar that was. Didn't have to try to time a nic anymore, you just held down the nic button and it would nic one time and one time only.

I loved those old single button collar's and the 100 A. Todays collar's have to much on them to suit me. If I have a dog down that I know needs a collar, I don't pair it up wih another to see if it will back. Problem for me come's in with the extra dogs on the collar is you have to think about which button to push. I'm sure that there are people on here that have actually used a collar set up for multiple dog's that has hit the wrong dog now and then!

[gonehuntin']

On the early 70 collars, before variable intensity plugs, they hadn't figured what frequencies to use. Sometimes an airplane would fly over and set off the collar. The poor dog would go high tailing it across the prairies screaming like a banshee, or come roaring over to the trainer for protection then bite him when the collar didn't shut off.

At their worst, they were a ton better than hot lines, prods, and #8 shot.

[CDN_Cocker]

I'm currently using my first e-collar on my cocker - a dogtra 300m. He's a soft dog and trains at a low-medium setting, but I usually work him at a medium one when hunting to ensure he feels the pressure when he is on a bird. It has been a godsend for training him. The correction is immediate and not overwhelming to him (like leash corrections were). I have been following a retriever program with the help of board member Krakadawn. I was reluctant to use an e-collar as most spaniel info on the web is from the UK where the e-collar is not widely accepted or used the same way so I didn't think it was a good choice for my breed. Boy was I wrong! It has taken all of his training to the next level and he is very advanced for 9 months - especially for a cocker!

[UplandJim]

Do you think you know everything about e-collars? Love 'em? Hate 'em? Want to know more...or perhaps to know better ways to use them?

never used one so I don't have a real opinion. truth is I don't need one.

[Sharon]

Excellent tool in my opinion;very useful in a variety of situations.

[Nutmeg247]

Definitely want to learn more.

I have found it a great training tool. I have screwed up a few times with it, too, and just finished reading a collection of Martha Greenlee articles that have me rethinking nick versus continuous stim in some situations. But, I have also screwed up with positive reinforcement, too (only time my dog has laid down was when I, in hindsight unfairly, took my reinforcers and went inside when my dog was trying and I didn't get that he was -- he sulked for a good 3 days after that, and has never sulked after a screw-up with his e-Collar). Both the collar and R+ have overall been great.

[aulrich]

One thing I would like to know is the difference between the theories behind training methods that use either form of stimulation. For the most part I have used continuous an this idea behind that seem simple apply pressure with a known command, remove pressure on compliance and eventually the dog learns to avoid the stimulation by complying straight away.

The nick methodology I have seen as example while the dog is sitting, you give the sit command repeatedly and nick at the same time as the command. Do enough repetitions and the dog gets it.

Evan, if I understand correctly at first in your smart fetch at first you start with continuous, making it the equivalent of ear pinch. But later you switch to nick when fetching from a distance. To me this seems to indicate that nick and continuous are compatible but in what context.

[S&J gsp]

I personally like the E-Collar it is very effective tool. But it is also an ever evolving tool we all need to try and learn from all the reaserch that is being done. Not just the collar companies but all the Pro trainers and not just gun dog trainers all trainers. I read every artical that comes out about the E-Collar because the tool is only as good as the user.

[gundogguy]

E-collars of yesteryear not so much! E-collars of today an amazing tool in the tool box! Study of it's application essential. A good foundation in pressure and release, and how to let the dog have a way out is a must! Helps your dog to become successful!
disclaimer
I have attended An Evan Graham Retriever Workshop, if you ever get an opportunity to attend and learn from Evan donot miss out. He is an excellent teacher, and coach!

[EvanG]

Do you think you know everything about e-collars? Love 'em? Hate 'em? Want to know more...or perhaps to know better ways to use them?

never used one so I don't have a real opinion. truth is I don't need one.

Nobody really needs one, Jim. Nobody needs a rope, or a leash, or even a whistle. But any and all of them serve a purpose, and each has its strengths when appropriately used. We'll soon get into appropriate use of e-collars, but I just want to add something about e-collars at this point that I believe is inarguable.

1. We (those who know and understand the tool) do NOT teach dogs with an e-collar. We simply enforce what was previously taught by conventional means.
2. With an e-collar we can enforce our previously taught commands at any practical distance (up to a mile), and do it with instant timing. That is unmatched efficiency.

I've found that the lower a trainer sets his or her performance goals, the easier they are to meet. Conversely, the higher they set them, the greater effort and efficiency will be required.

"Now what are you prepared to do?" Sean Connery/'Untouchables'

EvanG

[Trekmoor]

I think it was about 1967 that I first saw an e-collar in use . The Guide Dogs for the Blind had one back then and I was an apprentice guide dog trainer. The e-collar had just one nic-level and that level would have made a rhino jump. It was used when I saw it to stop a guide dog that had begun to scavenge food as it worked. My job was to lay out food of various kinds in front of the advancing dog and her blind owner while a qualified trainer operated the handset.

It didn't work too well, the dog jumped sky high on the end of the harness and looked like a bucking, twisting bronco. Seeing that put me off e-collars for quite a while. I next saw one which I think was the same model about 13-14 years later. It was on a very tough Labrador male belonging to a farmer who wanted the dog to work as a gundog. The dog did respond to that e-collar, it did not respond well to anything else.
I was just beginning to change my mind about e-collars when a lorry drove by the field we were training on. The dog went berserk , jumping, twisting and yowling. It seems the C.B. radio being used by the lorry driver was emitting a constant "nic" signal for as long as the lorry was in range.

Seeing that put me off e-collars for about 20 years ! I eventually bought a fairly modern type with 12 nic-levels but used it only for stopping sheep chasing dogs. Then I joined this forum to learn more about proper e-collar use . I still don't use my one for gundog training. I don't learn things too well over forums or even by video. Until I see an e-collar being used for gundog training by someone who really knows what they are doing I will probably continue to use my one only for aversive use on sheep chasers.

Britain has no "expert" e-collar trainers or users so it seems likely I will never use my one for what it could be used for.

Bill T.

[birdshot]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

[EvanG]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Me too. I hand test every collar I buy.

EvanG

[rinker]

[I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.*]

The vast majority of my ecollar use is at a level that I can barely feel, it certainly isn't painful.

[UglyD]

[I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.*]

The vast majority of my ecollar use is at a level that I can barely feel, it certainly isn't painful.

Same here- it's on a very low intensity- rarely use anything but the "buzz " feature now- most of the time the dogs know when they have the collar on and know a good time of hunting is going to happen and they already know what they can and should do.'
That shock feature now is probably only going to be used when theres trouble- like a porky or a dirt road they are too close to with a truck coming.

[gonehuntin']

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Same could be said of pinching your own ear, hitting yourself with a whip, or putting a half hitch on your toe.

Ain't the implement, it's the button man.

[polmaise]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Same could be said of pinching your own ear, hitting yourself with a whip, or putting a half hitch on your toe.

Ain't the implement, it's the button man.

Not the best example 'gonehuntin' ,but I get where your coming from.
The person would know what was coming and when ,and when to stop.
Psychologically ,I was led to believe the dog would cheat and prevent it from what it knows is coming .
.............
Evans Thread heading included 'all opinions welcome', perhaps that should have been omitted,as it opens up for the usual and disappointing route of those for or against ,rather than what I personally had hoped was to gain more knowledge about.

[crackerd]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Same could be said of pinching your own ear, hitting yourself with a whip, or putting a half hitch on your toe.

Ain't the implement, it's the button man.

Not the best example 'gonehuntin' ,but I get where your coming from.
The person would know what was coming and when ,and when to stop.
Psychologically ,I was led to believe the dog would cheat and prevent it from what it knows is coming .
.............
Evans Thread heading included 'all opinions welcome', perhaps that should have been omitted,as it opens up for the usual and disappointing route of those for or against ,rather than what I personally had hoped was to gain more knowledge about.

"More knowledge about" is ripe for the picking, Robt., all you need do is study up on "indirect pressure."

Thus this sentence

The person would know what was coming and when ,and when to stop.

could be changed to

The dog would know what was coming and when ,and when to stop.

because the dog's been trained with the e-collar and knows what's coming if it doesn't stop - thus stopping on a dime to beat the pressure (stimulation).

MG

[Fran Seagren]

I love having the e-collar as a training tool. Twenty-five years ago, when I started training my first hunting dog, I was against the use of e-collars. I had heard a couple horror stories and that's all it took. First impressions are significant. But, when I took my first "trained" lab pheasant hunting on opening day, she flushed a hen. Despite my "stop" whistles, she proceeded to chase that hen off into the sunset as I blew whistle after whistle. I was terrified she would run across a road and get hit, or fall in a well - who knows what. She did come back in about 10 minutes or so, but I looked over at my husband and said, "I'm getting a shock collar" (as they were called back then).

I think the problems with the use of e-collars are people don't take the time to learn how to use it, and people lose their temper and use the collar improperly. Even though there is a lot of information available - everywhere - on how to properly train using the e-collar, I think this forum is a great place for these discussions. Trouble is, some people get all riled up if someone disagrees with their opinion. This rarely happens when people are talking face-to-face. With that said, I still like to hear what others have to say. And, what problems or questions and solutions people have on the use of e-collars.

And, for DonF that mentioned the multi-dog collar and accidentally giving a zap to the wrong dog - Yes, I've done that. Of course, it was a "mistake." My dogs are pretty forgiving and they seem to know when I say, ''Oh, I'm sorry!" But, I have a method I use that works pretty good. The e-collar strap colors are different for each collar. I match that color on the transmitters using colored duct tape. When I have all six dogs "collared-up" at the same time, I have two transmitters that hang from a lanyard around my neck. I use the same color/collar on the same dog every time to try and eliminate "mistakes."

My dogs get all excited when I start to put the e-collars on them. Each one can't wait their turn because they know, the fun is about to begin!

[Neil]

Folks, all animals, including humans, perceive and react differently to electricty. It is not a pain threshold issue, some are very sensitive to the stimulations, both in terms of the level and duration.

Testing an e-collar on the calloused fingers of a human tells you nothing about what the dog will recievre, and even less about the dog's sensitivity level.

I learned in a college lab shocking rats, they had a wide range of reaction to the same level. Electricity does strange things. I could explain the neurological reasons for this, but there is no need in this forum.

Other than knowing it is on, don't think using on yourself is important. Some very physically tough dogs have low tolerance, soft ones very high. It is why knowledgeable trainers in e-collar use monitor each dog's reaction.

[birddogger]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Another person who doesn't understand the proper use of the ecollar.

Charlie

[birddogger]

Folks, all animals, including humans, perceive and react differently to electricty. It is not a pain threshold issue, some are very sensitive to the stimulations, both in terms of the level and duration.

Testing an e-collar on the calloused fingers of a human tells you nothing about what the dog will recievre, and even less about the dog's sensitivity level.

I learned in a college lab shocking rats, they had a wide range of reaction to the same level. Electricity does strange things. I could explain the neurological reasons for this, but there is no need in this forum.

Other than knowing it is on, don't think using on yourself is important. Some very physically tough dogs have low tolerance, soft ones very high. It is why knowledgeable trainers in e-collar use monitor each dog's reaction.

+1.

Charlie

[Fran Seagren]

Folks, all animals, including humans, perceive and react differently to electricty. It is not a pain threshold issue, some are very sensitive to the stimulations, both in terms of the level and duration.

Testing an e-collar on the calloused fingers of a human tells you nothing about what the dog will recievre, and even less about the dog's sensitivity level.

I learned in a college lab shocking rats, they had a wide range of reaction to the same level. Electricity does strange things. I could explain the neurological reasons for this, but there is no need in this forum.

Other than knowing it is on, don't think using on yourself is important. Some very physically tough dogs have low tolerance, soft ones very high. It is why knowledgeable trainers in e-collar use monitor each dog's reaction.

Good point. All dogs are not equal - like people. My husband can't take the lowest "stim" on the e-collar. He "thinks" it hurts even if it doesn't. When my granddaughter was about six, she wanted to feel the e-collar. I started with the lowest level and with her request, we worked up level by level of "zap." The more attention and "admiration" she got from us, the less she felt the collar. Then, she said, "Gimme the highest one, Gramma." We all laughed. But I told her I didn't even give the dogs the highest, except for rare occasions.

[birdshot]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Another person who doesn't understand the proper use of the ecollar.

Charlie

My guess is I understand the ecollar more than most on this board. My earlier post was my opinion on, how ecollar manufactures could be more effective at preventing collars being misused. My post was not meant to impugn those who have studied training methods and learned to use collars correctly.

[Trekmoor]

If ,as seems to be the case, the more knowledgeable users of e-collars seldom if ever use a collar at more than a 1/4 or less of it's possible nic level, could a case be made for collars being manufactured that could generate no more than about 1/4 of the power of present collars ? It might make collars more acceptable if they could never actually cause real pain ?
This would probably not work at all well for pure aversion training but would work fine for gundog training .....or not ?

People certainly do feel electricity in different ways for the same level of juice. My own collar has 12 levels of nic. I am barely able to detect level 2 , feel only a tingle at level 3 but find level 4 "a bit of a shock !" My daughter in law wanted to know what the shock felt like and I discovered she is still comfortable at level 4. ....... I assume dogs are the same ?

Bill T.

[Neil]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Another person who doesn't understand the proper use of the ecollar.

Charlie

My guess is I understand the ecollar more than most on this board. My earlier post was my opinion on, how ecollar manufactures could be more effective at preventing collars being misused. My post was not meant to impugn those who have studied training methods and learned to use collars correctly.

I am curious why you did not offer that opinion to the manufactures? Or even state that opinion, unless it was to have two recievers, one for the dog and one for the trainer. I am not buying one.

[birddogger]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Another person who doesn't understand the proper use of the ecollar.

Charlie

My guess is I understand the ecollar more than most on this board. My earlier post was my opinion on, how ecollar manufactures could be more effective at preventing collars being misused. My post was not meant to impugn those who have studied training methods and learned to use collars correctly.

I understand and respect your opinion. I just think it is the user's responsibility to learn how to use it correctly and not the manufacturer to see that they don't. Kind of like blaming guns instead of blaming the people who misuse/abuse them. JMO.

Charlie

[birdshot]

OK this will be my last attempt to explain myself.
If an ecollar came with one for collar for the owner and one collar for the dog, users who abuse the tool, would not be so quick to fry a dog. and an added benefit you would always know when the collar needed to be recharged.

[CDN_Cocker]

LOL. It certainly is hard to gauge. My pup runs between 20 and 40 on his dogtra. To me, I barely feel that. It takes about an 80 for me to be uncomfortable in my hand. Just shows how different they perceive it. I think people should definitely know how it feels before strapping it on. That said, there are those that will use any tool improperly whether it be an e-collar, choke/prong collar or a basic leash.

[gonehuntin']

OK this will be my last attempt to explain myself.
If an ecollar came with one for collar for the owner and one collar for the dog, users who abuse the tool, would not be so quick to fry a dog. and an added benefit you would always know when the collar needed to be recharged.

Come on now; that is really a foolish post. What does anyone care WHAT the dog feels? It's unpleasant and that's all we need to know. Why do you assume that what you feel is what the dog feels? It varies greatly from dog to dog. I once sold a great young lab that finished 8 Qualifyings while still a derby dog. I collar broke that dog with an a-70. On the neck it had no effect, he'd quasi ally cock his head, sit down and scratch his neck. To get a response I had to fold his ear under the prongs of the collar. The next dog you may be able to train on a level 2or3.

What the dog feels is not what a person may feel, nor does it matter. At one time they used ecollar's on autistic patients to stop them from hurting themselves.

Me thinks you worry to much about the dog and not enough about the results you achieve.

[Nutmeg247]

If ,as seems to be the case, the more knowledgeable users of e-collars seldom if ever use a collar at more than a 1/4 or less of it's possible nic level, could a case be made for collars being manufactured that could generate no more than about 1/4 of the power of present collars ? It might make collars more acceptable if they could never actually cause real pain ?
This would probably not work at all well for pure aversion training but would work fine for gundog training .....or not ?

People certainly do feel electricity in different ways for the same level of juice. My own collar has 12 levels of nic. I am barely able to detect level 2 , feel only a tingle at level 3 but find level 4 "a bit of a shock !" My daughter in law wanted to know what the shock felt like and I discovered she is still comfortable at level 4. ....... I assume dogs are the same ?

Bill T.

I only have experience on my current dog. But, for him, depending on how revved up he is, he'll respond, or not, to dramatically different levels on the Dogtra collar. So, I can see how for a dog with a high tolerance who was also excited could require a pretty good range of settings.

For myself, I do realize now that one thing I could have done better so far as a trainer is to arrange training so that my dog doesn't get as excited and so doesn't require higher levels of stim. But, that doesn't address situations where there's a real safety issue, like the dog getting ready to cross a busy road, because of some variable like deer that you can't completely control. so, I can see why with one collar people would want a range of settings.

[aulrich]

1 I would rather have settings I may never need, normal working range for my dog for yard work and most field work is shades of 1 (TT collar) if he gets too excited for field training low/medium 2. But it was nice to have 4 medium when I caught him chasing deer, the next time it only two 2 medium.

[DonF]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Another person who doesn't understand the proper use of the ecollar.

Charlie

My guess is I understand the ecollar more than most on this board. My earlier post was my opinion on, how ecollar manufactures could be more effective at preventing collars being misused. My post was not meant to impugn those who have studied training methods and learned to use collars correctly.

I couldn't remember your post so had to go back and look. Funny thing, I had a client here years ago that he just couldn't get the hang of the e-collar. He'd hit the dog at the wrong time. So to fix the problem I put a collar on his leg and told him every time he screwed up, I was gonna shock him. It's alright to say shock because that's what they were called back then. Anyway the day I did that his folk's and sister were here and nobody believe'd I do i. Probably should have believe'd me! He did learn to pay attention after a few shock's, I mean stimulation's!

[birddogger]

LOL. It certainly is hard to gauge. My pup runs between 20 and 40 on his dogtra. To me, I barely feel that. It takes about an 80 for me to be uncomfortable in my hand. Just shows how different they perceive it. I think people should definitely know how it feels before strapping it on. That said, there are those that will use any tool improperly whether it be an e-collar, choke/prong collar or a basic leash.

+1. Any tool can and will be abused or misused by some.

Charlie

[chevyrulz]

the e-collar has been a life changing tool for my pup (for me to!). My only regret is that I waited so long to get one. Within a few minutes, my pup began to realize commands aren't optional. After a few days, I had a completely different dog. She's happier than ever with her new found freedom and seems to have matured months if not years within a couple weeks. My dog's problem was that she knew what I was telling her to do, but sometimes chose not to do it. The e-collar is (so-far) unmatched in correcting this with my dog.

I strive not to let her see the remote when I'm correcting so she doesn't think to chew up the remote or ignore me when the remote's not in hand. I also put on her e-collar before we leave the house to do anything I think she'll enjoy like going on the boat or to the dog park. Those 2 things I either read somewhere or reasoned on my own, & may well be pointless since I'm a complete rookie.

90% of the time, vibrate is enough to correct her. I was surprised at how much I have to vary the stim level based on the pup's state of mind & the situation. I've had her yelp @ 10-15 out of 100, and she's ignored 25-30 before. Haven't yet felt it necessary to go past the 40s. Even 100 on my palm doesn't seem like much, then again, I'm not dog & my palm is a lot less sensitive than my neck... I'm starting to learn better which setting is necessary @ which time. I'm completely inexperienced with e-collars & dog training in general so I am trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can. My 11 month old GSP is my 1st dog. We started FF recently & I've transitioned her from ear pinch pressure to collar pressure on the table & this week to the ground. She's getting it, but FF definitely takes patience as well as other skills I've yet to master. I have no place to upland hunt, so I'm not working her on those skills. Right now my focus is obedience & intro to duck hunting.

Do you think you know everything about e-collars?

Nope.

Love 'em?

Yep.

Want to know more...or perhaps to know better ways to use them?

Definitely.

More to come.

Can't wait.

[polmaise]

More to come.

Can't wait.

C'mon Evan ?
I've got dogs to train.

[nikegundog]

More to come.

Can't wait.

C'mon Evan ?
I've got dogs to train.

Your continued stocking of Evan comes off as a little creepy.

[polmaise]

Your continued stocking of Evan comes off as a little creepy.

You appear to be more interested in the subject rather than the subject matter?
I for one Challenge Evan on occasion for clarification and knowledge of a subject that I have limited experience of.
He' has far more to give me than your comment or suggestion ! I respect the man for what he knows that I do not!..and I am sure that he respects the same.
Now 'wind yer neck in young sir' and learn
Sit back, enjoy your popcorn and listen to what the man has to say

[EvanG]

Folks, all animals, including humans, perceive and react differently to electricty. It is not a pain threshold issue, some are very sensitive to the stimulations, both in terms of the level and duration.

This is a key consideration. But it is a point that could be made regarding any aversive. Each dog has its own pain threshold, and its own level of sensitivity to virtually any and all aversive stimuli. E-collars are not implements for shocking dogs, and such references demonstrate ignorance of it. Sadly, after several decades of use and development, there are still many who think in those inaccurate and archaic terms. An e-collar is an implement of force (pressure), much as heeling sticks, leashes, and so forth are.

Testing an e-collar on the calloused fingers of a human tells you nothing about what the dog will receive, and even less about the dog's sensitivity level.

One of the lessons taught to me by the late Hall of Fame trainer Rex Carr is a lesson with two distinct but related parts. One is that he hand tested every one of his collars, as do I continue to do. The second part is that we do this, not to "feel what the dog feels", but rather to test the collar's functions. These variable collars are fantastic...when they work properly. I want to know that the stimulus is delivered as it should be, and that the variability features are functioning.

Friends, you can't feel things as a dog does unless you somehow sprout a dense fur coat and a tougher Hyde. Even then, you cannot ignore how differently each one reacts to the very same application of stimulus, electric or otherwise. None of that will make you a better trainer anyway. What will make you a better trainer is learning to read your dog. If you ever hope to be a successful pro you'll need to develop this skill so as to be able to read many dogs. That is much like a psycho therapist has to learn to read, diagnose, and treat many different patients with the same disorder. No two subjects are created exactly equal. How each individual dog reacts - in the moment - is THE vitally important yardstick for e-collar use.

"Train the dog you're training." ~ Evan Graham

Other than knowing it is on, don't think using on yourself is important. Some very physically tough dogs have low tolerance, soft ones very high. It is why knowledgeable trainers in e-collar use monitor each dog's reaction.

That's the difference between checking function, and reading dogs. They are two separate acts, performed for two separate sets of reasons.

EvanG

[crackerd]

C'mon Evan ?
I've got dogs to train.

Your continued stocking of Evan comes off as a little creepy.

What's he stocking Evan with - ideas or thoughts on e-collar use? Can't have that, everybody but retriever trainers knows there's only one way to use the e-collar, that being your own way.

MG

[Neil]

Evan,

Not sure why you quoted me in your rebuttal, I try to not use "shock" inappropriately.

I strongly disagree that an e-collar is like any other tool. Electricty is much different, has nothing to do with pain or pain tolerance. I am sure you have seen this, even working mostly Labs, which have been bred to have a high tolerance to both pain and electrical stimulus.

The reason e-collars are so effective is not just their long range applications, but how mammals react to electricity. Let me say again, it is not pain they are feeling.

And I have never seen a dog react to very low levels of stimulus unless they have experienced much higher levels previouly.

You can effectively use a tool without understanding how and why it works. In fact I don't much care about the why, just the what.

[Neil]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Me too. I hand test every collar I buy.

EvanG

This is just wrong! People and dogs are different, as is each dog.

[EvanG]

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Me too. I hand test every collar I buy.

EvanG

This is just wrong! People and dogs are different, as is each dog.

Neil,

Did you read my last post?

EvanG

[Neil]

Evan,

Yes, I have read all your posts, not sure you have. You misspoke when you agreed about the need to feel what the dog does by testing it on yourself. And you corrected it in your last post.

I thank you for your many valuable contributions, you know your stuff.

[crackerd]

I strongly disagree that an e-collar is like any other tool. Electricty is much different, has nothing to do with pain or pain tolerance. I am sure you have seen this, even working mostly Labs, which have been bred to have a high tolerance to both pain and electrical stimulus.

Neil, how do you breed for AC/DC? - methinks you're going in for more of your buddy Milner's hogwash about how hot and "hardheaded" (and hard to train) American Labs are. The e-collar has been most successful in training - overwhelmingly successful, and no need to give you empirical evidence when I've got first-hand experience - with the softer, more sensitive retrievers. Whether they're Labs, Chessies or some combination thereof (i.e., Boykins).

MG

[EvanG]

Evan,

Yes, I have read all your posts, not sure you have. You misspoke when you agreed about the need to feel what the dog does by testing it on yourself. And you corrected it in your last post.

I thank you for your many valuable contributions, you know your stuff.

Neil,

Do you mean this one?

I have always felt ecollars could be more effective if the operator received the same juice the dog received.

Me too. I hand test every collar I buy.

EvanG

If so, I think perhaps you simply misunderstood. I wasn't agreeing that hand testing was so we could tell what our dogs were feeling, but rather get the same stimulus. Some do it because they believe the human might be more temperate with the stimulus if they felt like the dog. I want to receive "the same juice the dog received" in order to know my collar is working, and working properly. That small interaction with birdshot wasn't enough discourse to get into that. I've been waiting to see if anyone would dig deeper to jump back in. Then I saw your post and responded.

As often happens when e-collars are discussed, we've seen honest posts that had more to do with emotion than with a reasoned discussion of the tool. It's easy to get wrong ideas, and some wrong ideas about collars are decades old. This is important to do now and then. Of course, we all know some folks will believe what they want to believe in spite of the facts, rather than because of them. Your input was vitally important to this thread. I'm glad I waited it out!

EvanG

[Neil]

MG,

Guilty. I am a fan of Milner.

Perhaps Evan will respond to correct the record if I am totally wrong.

But it is my understanding many test pups as young as 8 weeks to establish a base point of e-collar tolerance, those that over react to low levels wash out before training even begins. I do know for a fact FC Labs are tough in every way, and have always thought part of their dominace in trials over goldens and Chessies is resistance to e-collar stimulations, allowing more option for the trainer.

There is no negative judgement in my beliefs, a top Lab is an amazing animal with much to admire.

So maybe they are not breeding for it, but it seems to be there.