A misunderstanding maybe ?

[Trekmoor]

There is a current thread about increasing the range of a pointing breed pup. I didn't want to interfere with that thread hence this post. The advice given seems to be to plant a bird at one end of a field then to enter the field at the other end and walk the pup to the bird. Done a few times I fully understand that a pup would be likely to run straight up the field to reach the bird.

I'm assuming this is done by walking, as near as possible, straight into the wind ? If so isn't that pup being trained to bore into the wind in a straight line instead of quartering ? I agree that if a dog hunted directly into the wind for far enough and for long enough it would eventually encounter a bird or a covey but what about all the unhunted ground out to either side ? A regiment of birds could be off to the sides and the dog would be running straight past them.

Is it the hope of the dog trainer that having learned to run 1 or 2 hundreds of yards in a straight line directly in front of the trainer the dog would then teach itself to quarter the wind to either side out to those same distances ? Or is the planted bird placed out in such a way that the pup would be running on a cheek wind ?

Bill T.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Depending on what part of the country / world you are in dictates how you want your dog to handle. Some areas the dogs must run hedge rows or edges and other areas they run objectives. In most cases in Field Trials, judges want to see bigger running dogs (both GD & AA). I think you are assuming the wind direction is the only factor. I train in many different scenarios depending on what the weather allows and what the dog needs. I want my dogs to understand that the birds are "out there", not 25 yards in front of me. Whether the dog hunts in a 10 to 2 pattern is inconsequential to me as long as he does not hunt from behind. I think once the dog realizes that he can "reach" to find the birds and you plant the birds in likely areas that birds will be, he can "connect the dots" and use the wind and objectives along with his God given instincts to find the birds.

FWIW

[Garrison]

My understanding is it to be more of an exercise in confidence, letting the dog know that birds can be found out at distances of more than 50 feet from the owner. Range does not mean the dog is going to miss the birds within 25, 50, 1000 + feet, it means they are going to go look for them if they are not there.

[Neil]

What many fail to understand, there are always objectives, places more likely to hold birds. Ever watch a fox or coyote hunt? no quartering, they go from objective to objective, using the wind, even in seemingly monolithic cover they know where to hunt as they do it for a living.

A quartering pointing dog is giving up his biggest asset as compared to a flushing dog, finding birds you would be unlikely to find without them. To think, you as a human, know better where birds might be, is to deny evolution. Dogs passed on the most important predatory traits, finding birds.

Neil

[slistoe]

The wind is immaterial, so long as the pup gets to the bird. This exercise has nothing to do with learning to use the wind and everything to do with heading to an objective. Once the goal is accomplished the drill is dropped. (the goal is not accomplished till the pup has been conditioned in other places/objectives than the original one such that the pup generalizes the concept to all locations.)
There are other drills which will help a pup learn to understand the wind is his friend. (if you get a dumb one that won't learn this on it's own, which may be likely if you have one that won't learn to range on it's own.)
If you really think that your pointing dog needs are best met by a strictly quartering dog then drills for ranging to objectives are rather pointless.

[whatsnext]

What i mostly hunt are fence rows and ditch's so i want my dogs to take them and GO! i don't care if they take a wide sweep out into a field if they are working the wind or if we are crossing fields i will handle them accordingly , But most of the time we find birds on the edges of some objective point. I have one dog that will quarter and works between 40 and 100 yards and i will tell you he finds more birds the less he quarters and the more he runs some kind of edge and i only hunt wild birds.I pick my other pup up from the trainer this week and we will see how he does and how big his motor is.I don't mind my dogs quartering in big crp or crop fields but they better be quartering to something and some kind of forward movement because i hate bumping birds because a dog is messing around.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

How many of you have heard that 10% of the cover holds 90% of the Game? For those who have heard it & believe it which I do,would you want a quartering dog or a line running dog that runs a line to objectives?

[duckn66]

How many of you have heard that 10% of the cover holds 90% of the Game? For those who have heard it & believe it which I do,would you want a quartering dog or a line running dog that runs a line to objectives?

Depends on what type of cover you are hunting and the game you are after.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

No matter what kind of cover your hunting or the game they prefer a certain type & that's where you will find the biggest percentage of the game.Holds true on land or water.

[duckn66]

I guess what I was trying to say is I don't want a dog that while hunting early chickens in the Flint Hills that runs right down to the draws and hunts. I want that dog on the hill tops where the chickens are and would prefer it to be quartering. Not all game inhabits the same type of cover.

[Neil]

How many of you have heard that 10% of the cover holds 90% of the Game? For those who have heard it & believe it which I do,would you want a quartering dog or a line running dog that runs a line to objectives?

Depends on what type of cover you are hunting and the game you are after.

Not in North America....

[slistoe]

I guess what I was trying to say is I don't want a dog that while hunting early chickens in the Flint Hills that runs right down to the draws and hunts. I want that dog on the hill tops where the chickens are and would prefer it to be quartering. Not all game inhabits the same type of cover.

A draw is not an objective.
The dogs learn by experience what types of cover they should be looking for/in. If they are allowed to learn....
When I hunt the late evening the birds have moved from resting cover to feeding areas - stubble fields. The dogs would quarter the wind across the monolithic cover - except for some that seemed to have a knack for knowing where the birds were and getting them pointed. Inspection of finds over time showed that even a stubble field contained objectives that were more likely to hold feeding birds.

[Sharon]

Just because a dog may look like he's missing spots doesn't mean he is. That nose is picking up scent from all around.

[gonehuntin']

It is impossible for a grouse and woodcock dog to run to an objective. Much of the time, all of the cover is the same. For a dog like this, a great quartering pattern is a huge asset.

[slistoe]

I hunted ruffed grouse for many years without a dog. I quickly learned that grouse are not found randomly at any place in a forest.

[gonehuntin']

I hunted ruffed grouse for many years without a dog. I quickly learned that grouse are not found randomly at any place in a forest.

They are when you're hunting dog hair aspen or tag alder. Or, where they are differs so subtlety that no dog in the world could ever tell the difference.

[h&t]

trekmoor, that's one of them 'continental' differences
AFAIK in America dogs are not trained to quarter neither it's evaluated in testing and trialing
in any case, it's not giving nearly as much attention as in (most of) Europe.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

trekmoor, that's one of them 'continental' differences
AFAIK in America dogs are not trained to quarter neither it's evaluated in testing and trialing
in any case, it's not giving nearly as much attention as in (most of) Europe.

Good to see someone still on the topic. I will say it is still part of the curriculum with the Huntsmith Silent Command system. They call it check cord work.

[Ruffshooter]

What are the objectives in the jack firs, alders, poplar/aspen, apple orchard etc. There are too many so a dog that cuts the grove and cuts it again and uses its nose will find the objective. THe Ruffy. The objectives that are obvious in the fields are not as defined in the woods or too large to be a finite objective.

When I have had to stretch a dog out. I put the birds at the end of the field then I will randomly put birds in other locations and come from other sides. I also put birds out in a windshiled washer pattern as well. Works for me.

[Neil]

I hunted ruffed grouse for many years without a dog. I quickly learned that grouse are not found randomly at any place in a forest.

They are when you're hunting dog hair aspen or tag alder. Or, where they are differs so subtlety that no dog in the world could ever tell the difference.

But my point is you can't tell where the birds are likely to be, but a great dog can. Please don't tell us you have not seen dogs that always seem to find birds, when others go birdless. What we see as all the same, they instinctively no where the birds ought to be, and they are right.

I spend 90% of my training time developing that ability, they will all point and can be trained to be steady, but only the good ones will find wild birds when they are scarse.

A quartering dog is hunting at least half of the time unproductively, not only is the wind wrong, but they are avoiding the likely places for birds.

I don't even make my spaniels quarter, they know where the birds are. The conceit of humans that think they know better than the dog, the ttue predator, is questionable. Trust the dog, they have 40,000+ years in their favor. Those that direct their dogs to likely cove

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I hunted ruffed grouse for many years without a dog. I quickly learned that grouse are not found randomly at any place in a forest.

They are when you're hunting dog hair aspen or tag alder. Or, where they are differs so subtlety that no dog in the world could ever tell the difference.

But my point is you can't tell where the birds are likely to be, but a great dog can. Please don't tell us you have not seen dogs that always seem to find birds, when others go birdless. What we see as all the same, they instinctively no where the birds ought to be, and they are right.

I spend 90% of my training time developing that ability, they will all point and can be trained to be steady, but only the good ones will find wild birds when they are scarse.

A quartering dog is hunting at least half of the time unproductively, not only is the wind wrong, but they are avoiding the likely places for birds.




I don't even make my spaniels quarter, they know where the birds are. The conceit of humans that think they know better than the dog, the ttue predator, is questionable. Trust the dog, they have 40,000+ years in their favor. Those that direct their dogs to likely cove

got to agree with that Just teach the dog to hunt for you. He already know how to hunt.

[Neil]

I don't need them to hunt for me, I just turn them loose, try to keep them to the front, and hope to find them on point.

Though not exactly germain, I couldn't go North this year, but just got a call from my son, my retired 13 year old retired FC and his daughter just accounted for a couple of limits of pheasants by being allowed to hunt. It is a good part breeding, and a lot of development. It still works.

[gonehuntin']

So, you don't think that in a grouse woods the experienced instinctively quarters to find birds? I have never seen a great grouse and woodcock dog that didn't quarter for birds. On the prairie they may run to objectives but in a grouse woods, they quarter. If they don't they find precious few birds.

[Trekmoor]

Does it then, all boil down to the kind of ground you do most of your hunting on ? I know experienced dogs will run to "objectives." My dogs will do this if they are being hunted over ground that is almost devoid of cover. They will head for the nearest hedge, ditch or woodlands. My "problem" would come if I were hunting a heather moor or similar. If a dog just ran "out in front" in that situation it definitely would miss birds. I don't require a windscreen wiper regularity of pattern but I do require a pattern.

For sure ,a dog that ran fast and far out in front would find birds but it would miss birds too ..... I've seen it happen often enough !

Bill T.

[slistoe]

Does it then, all boil down to the kind of ground you do most of your hunting on ?

That, and the intelligence of the dog (some just never seem to "get it" and would be best served by handling in a quartering pattern with the handler making the "decisions"), and the time/characteristics of the bird you are pursuing. If we had hunting season in the spring when the Huns are spread out in mating pairs throughout the emerging hay/cropland then picking a field and "wiping" it would be a useful strategy.

[Neil]

So, you don't think that in a grouse woods the experienced instinctively quarters to find birds? I have never seen a great grouse and woodcock dog that didn't quarter for birds. On the prairie they may run to objectives but in a grouse woods, they quarter. If they don't they find precious few birds.

Have you ever been to a cover dog trial? They don't quarter, and they find birds by going at a rapid pace from likely place to place. If you have a quartering dog that is steered through the woods and fields you will find some birds, but so will the guy with a dog that walks behind him.

It is about which is the most efficient and productive.

I have never found birds evenly distributed throughout any ground, no matter how monolithic it may look to us. Good dogs know, great dogs know better.

[bhulisa]

It seems that in several posts the assumption is made that a "quartering" dog is being steered or handled throughout to go where the handler directs him/her to go. Why?

A dog can quarter (and I use this term rather loosely), meaning it can hunt in a systematic manner, using the wind and terrain or cover, without being handled to do so. Quartering pattern can be extremely wide or extremely close, depending on dog and cover, but it does not necessarily mean that the handler is doing anything other than acting as a point of reference for the dog.

I think perhaps there is misunderstanding between the continents and the terms we use!

[gonehuntin']

I think perhaps there is misunderstanding between the continents and the terms we use!

That must be it since most dogs quarter naturally. When I'm hunting a skidder trail, the dog is working both sides of that road bout 80 yards in each direction. If we get into an edge, she'll hunt the edge. People credit dog's with too much intelligence. Where they learn to find birds is where, many times, we have taught them to find birds. In the prairies, they'll head for the fence rows, cattail, ditches, etc. A dog in the grouse woods doesn't have that advantage. It is all the same, much of the time.

In a cattail marsh or grouse woods, there is, in my opinion, no more effective pattern than a quartering pattern.

[Neil]

I am one of the few dog lovers that freely admit, they are dunb. But the good ones have instinct to find birds, the good ones find birds when others fail. Añd the great ones never quarter, they know where birds are likely to be. They don't quarter to where they are not.

Let me say again. A quartering dog is spending at least half the time with the wind wrong, and a good bit of the time in unproductive areas.

It really is that simple, good dogs find birds others miss.

Thry don't find every bird, but, they find morr in a shorter time if they don't quarter.

Anyone that has hunted more than one dog, knows some find more birds. They just seem to know where the birds are.

To argue otherwise is to admit inexperience or just be argumentative.

[gonehuntin']

To argue otherwise is to admit inexperience or just be argumentative.

And that says it all. :roll:

[polmaise]

They just seem to know where the birds are.

To argue otherwise is to admit inexperience or just be argumentative.

I am truly not being argumentative!
Can you expand on this ?
I will admit to inexperience!

[41magsnub]

Forgive my noobishness into a thread that has a lot of very strong opinions in it...

It is not an either/or thing in my limited experience. Take the example of the land I mostly hunt. It is flatland CRP with a several hot spots around irrigation ditches and fences. Those spots are either where the pheasants like to be or a terrain change that forces them to flush when pressured there. There are birds scattered everywhere, but the concentrations are in the hot spots. We make the dogs quarter when transiting between hot spots and it produces birds for us that we would likely have missed had they been straight lining to the next hot spot. Sometimes the birds hold for us, sometimes they get up wild, other times we are pushing them towards one of the hot spots. If the dog acts birdy we let them work it in transit unless it is clear they are after a runner going in the same direction we are. When we get close to the hot spots we let the dogs drive the bus.

[gonehuntin']

Forgive my noobishness into a thread that has a lot of very strong opinions in it...

It is not an either/or thing in my limited experience. Take the example of the land I mostly hunt. It is flatland CRP with a several hot spots around irrigation ditches and fences. Those spots are either where the pheasants like to be or a terrain change that forces them to flush when pressured there. There are birds scattered everywhere, but the concentrations are in the hot spots. We make the dogs quarter when transiting between hot spots and it produces birds for us that we would likely have missed had they been straight lining to the next hot spot. Sometimes the birds hold for us, sometimes they get up wild, other times we are pushing them towards one of the hot spots. If the dog acts birdy we let them work it in transit unless it is clear they are after a runner going in the same direction we are. When we get close to the hot spots we let the dogs drive the bus.

That's what I see as well. The woods then are a whole different ball game. A dog that does not naturally quarter in the woods will produce precious few birds.

[Neil]

Forgive my noobishness into a thread that has a lot of very strong opinions in it...

It is not an either/or thing in my limited experience. Take the example of the land I mostly hunt. It is flatland CRP with a several hot spots around irrigation ditches and fences. Those spots are either where the pheasants like to be or a terrain change that forces them to flush when pressured there. There are birds scattered everywhere, but the concentrations are in the hot spots. We make the dogs quarter when transiting between hot spots and it produces birds for us that we would likely have missed had they been straight lining to the next hot spot. Sometimes the birds hold for us, sometimes they get up wild, other times we are pushing them towards one of the hot spots. If the dog acts birdy we let them work it in transit unless it is clear they are after a runner going in the same direction we are. When we get close to the hot spots we let the dogs drive the bus.

That's what I see as well. The woods then are a whole different ball game. A dog that does not naturally quarter in the woods will produce precious few birds.

That has not been my experience, nor that of the top cover dogs. To truly quarter, they would have to run through a tree.

[Winchey]

So, you don't think that in a grouse woods the experienced instinctively quarters to find birds? I have never seen a great grouse and woodcock dog that didn't quarter for birds. On the prairie they may run to objectives but in a grouse woods, they quarter. If they don't they find precious few birds.

None of the coverdog guys teach their dogs to quarter.

[polmaise]

Anybody on this thread actually hunt and shoot over their dog (s) ?
:roll:

[gonehuntin']

Anybody on this thread actually hunt and shoot over their dog (s) ?
:roll:

I wonder the same thing. Seems not. '

[birddog1968]

If i had to teach a dog to hunt any type of cover he'd be posted in the dogs for sale section here

[Winchey]

Yes, probably 4 or 5 days a week during the season and train on wild birds 2 to 4 days a week March and April and July and August.

[Neil]

Anybody on this thread actually hunt and shoot over their dog (s) ?
:roll:

Yes, I hunt all my trial dogs, or more accurately trial my hunting dogs.

And this quartering nonsence proves those proponents of it do not hunt very efficiently.

Only on the Internet are all opinions equal.

I said earlier I have two horseback All-age dogs succesfully hunting pheasant, sharptail, and Huns right now.

[41magsnub]

Anybody on this thread actually hunt and shoot over their dog (s) ?
:roll:

Extensively. You might tone down the arrogance a few notches if you actually have a point to make. All this "bleep" waving accomplishes nothing.

[gonehuntin']

I like your taste in dogs 41mag.

[gonehuntin']

There's some things I don't understand in some of the arguments here:

How can a grouse dog run to an objective when they can't see more than 20 yards int the cover they're in?

How does a dog that is quartering use the wind less effectively than a dog running to objectives?

How does a dog that quarters run into trees?

WhAt, by your definition, is quartering?

How is a quartering dog spending half his time in unproductive areas when in a piece of dense cover neither man nor dog knows where the birds are?

I'm not talking prairie dogs here, that is a whole different style of hunting. For the moment, let's stick to grouse and woodcock and their covers.

[Neil]

There's some things I don't understand in some of the arguments here:

How can a grouse dog run to an objective when they can't see more than 20 yards int the cover they're in? They skirt the cover and use their nose.

How does a dog that is quartering use the wind less effectively than a dog running to objectives? Because when quartering. Half the time the wind is blowing up their butts.

How does a dog that quarters run into trees? Because they are in the way

WhAt, by your definition, is quartering? Think a windshield wipper.

How is a quartering dog spending half his time in unproductive areas when in a piece of dense cover neither man nor dog knows where the birds are? The dog's nose and instinct tells him. You and I can't, without tools man is a very poor predator, the dog is a tool.

I'm not talking prairie dogs here, that is a whole different style of hunting. For the moment, let's stick to grouse and woodcock and their covers.

[slistoe]

Given that if I simply go for a walk through a grouse covert I will find and flush some birds, making the argument that any particular dog with a certain style is effective because some birds were found when we went hunting with it does not really make a basis for that conclusion.
Unless you have experienced the type of dogs being mentioned in this thread you will not have any basis for comparison to know which is any more effective or not. A thought exercise will not yield any practical answers to this since the thoughts will have zero basis for relevance to reality. Pondering such things as "How can a grouse dog run to an objective?" is a totally fruitless exercise. I don't know. I am not a dog. Dogs can't talk. All I know is the some dogs will do it with a regular consistency. I simply have to accept the fact that I know it happens and I will never know how or why because it is outside the realm of human experience and ability. Knowing that it happens however allows me to be critical in my observations of dogs and to seek out those who have the ability and strengthen the presence of it in the gene pool as a benefit to all hunters who want the most effectiveness from their dogs.
In my experience there are almost zero hunter only folks who will own a dog that operates in the manner being referred to because they will never allow the dog to learn his craft in such a manner. For those few who do allow the dog the opportunity to develop such skills there comes to play the variability in the dogs themselves - not every dog is capable of learning such "craft" of the hunt. This further reduces the opportunity to be witness to the display of hunting ability. So, it is small wonder that there is reserve amongst many that dogs of such abilities exist. For all I know, there may not be a single specimen of the Griffon breed that does operate in such a manner. I can attest though, that such dogs do exist in the gene pool of Pointers, Setters, Brittanys, GSP's and GWP's to varying degrees as I have seen them.

[slistoe]

A dog that does not naturally quarter in the woods will produce precious few birds.

Pretty definitive statement for someone that simply doesn't know what they don't know.

[Neil]

One of the top woodcock hunters I have ever known or heard about, hunted dogless. Back when the limit was 5, he was rarely in the woods more than hour. I took him out with my pointing dogs a couple times, we made him very nervious, he kept wondering off to find his own birds. So I put a brace of Boykins down and let him lead us to productive cover. A better match and he now has Labs. He keeps them within 15 yards, and that makes me nervious.

As good as he is at finding birds, and he is very good, he is no match for a good pointing dog. But did prove we were bypassing more birds than I thought.

So there are many ways to enjoy the fields and woods.

BTW - He says he can tell just by walking on the ground where birds will be, tried to teach me, but I am a slow learner.

If someone will please explain why foxes and coyotes do not quarter, I will let this go before tempers flare.

[Winchey]

Woodcock and grouse cover will vary from one part of the country to the next. We have a lot of different cover up here, from fairly open river bottoms and swamps, to cut overs and alder runs as thick as they come. Most of the cover is not consistent, but I agree some covers can be. The most consistent we have up here is probably large regrown fields full of alders, and a good dog will shorten up, but there are still apple and other fruit trees, or maybe a fur tree in the mix that they will check out a little more thouroughly. Someone that I have a lot of respect for, and who kills as many grouse and woodcock as anyone over coverdog champion pointers, some with HB Ch's as well said something not long ago, he said the dogs don't just smell birds, they smell areas or types of ground that they have often found birds. Covers transition into different types.

I do want a dog staying in the pocket, but the only time I want him quartering is when you get into a really likely spot, even then it is a loose quarter and I just want them covering it very thouroughly.

When I hunt logging roads I like to send them out to one side of the road and to work the whole side, I don't want them on the edge of the road, don't need a dog for those birds and I don't want them crossing the road, I will send him on the other side on the way back instead of hitting the same ground twice.

I was also talking to a friend of mine recently who guides over his coverdogs. He started with springers then ran shorthairs now he has landed with pointers. He litterally moves close to 1000 birds each fall, give or take. Anyways, I am not sure why I asked, but I asked something about his springers and quartering, and he said he stopped teaching it even to the springers as he found it to be over rated.

[Trekmoor]

At present I hunt a vizsla and a Brittany. I take them to do what is called "dogging in " here. This consists mainly of "herding" straying pheasants back towards the centre of the shooting estate. The birds usually leak out mainly along the hedges, ditches and fence lines and the vizsla did some dogging-in last year so she thinks she knows all about finding those birds . She is only partially correct. As we cross stubble fields to hunt the birds back down a hedge or ditch she heads straight for her objective , the hedge or ditch. In doing so she is almost certainly failing to find the partridges that could be sitting on the stubbles to either side of her.

The Brittany is 12 months old today and she is inexperienced at dogging-in and she also likes to cover a lot more ground than the vizsla usually does. She hunts/quarters the stubbles instead of going straight to the objective. She would be the more likely of the two dogs to find any partridges out on the stubbles. In a field trial in Britain the vizsla would at least be downmarked for going straight to the objective. If any game of any kind were to be seen behind her or on the stubbles to either side of her route to the "objective" she had in mind, she would at once be eliminated from the trial.

I think the pointer/setter folk here have expected and required their dogs to quarter their ground for at least 200 years ? When field trials for those breeds got started any dog that did not quarter effectively was quickly eliminated. Were all of those people, over so many human and dog generations wrong in requiring dogs to quarter ? I.M.O. they were not wrong ........but if I lived in America where it reads as if there is no game at all between the "objectives," then I might be much happier with a dog that ran to objectives.

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

If someone will please explain why foxes and coyotes do not quarter, I will let this go before tempers flare.

Actually they do. I still trap for t hem. What you find is that they walk a straight line to and from an objective then if they are hunting, they cover the whole piece of cover. You'll see it in a cedar swamp all of the time, they'll take a direct line to that swamp, then hunt in a sort of quartering pattern, inspecting a downed tree here, a pile of brush there.

Same when they're mousing Ina field; they kind of meander searching for scent. They hunt a cattail marsh in the same manor.

As trappers, we take advantage more of the routes they travel to these areas rather than the area. At least I do. Let's me set less traps and patrol more country.