Simple Training Method

[labman626]

I am looking for a simple training method for my pointer. Very simple and no extra jargon. Someone told me the "Burnt Creek Method" would be a good one any thought?

[RoostersMom]

I like the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVD set. Simple, easy to understand, with lots of visuals.

[RayGubernat]

I use pieces of the Burnt creek method, but I do not think it is the most straightforward out there. The framework concept and moving from one learned behavior onto the next, to the next until the dog has mastered all the ieces of the puzzle and then p[utting them together is a valuable lesson in and of itself.

It is old, it is dated, but probably the simplest training book to follow is the one by Paul Long. It is, in large part, how I train.

A different approach, but also very straightforward, and very effective and efficient... is the method presented in the book "Training with Mo".

I have heard very good things about the Perfect Start series, but have never seen it myself, so I can't say.

Hope this helps.

RayG

[birddog1968]

Delmar smith.....don't get much simpler.

[DonF]

yep, Delmar Smith!

[gonehuntin']

Delmar is great and so is perfect start. Thing with perfect start is, you need a LOT of birds, but it is a very good system.

[mask]

You might try Dave Walker's book.

[Tika V]

Highly recommend... Training with Mo. How Maurice Lindley trains pointing dogs. Written by Martha Greenlee. Low pressure training that works! Easy to understand for those that are new to gundogs like I was/am. Turned my pup around in no time as I was sort of winging it at first.

[cjhills]

Simple training method :train a absolute solid ,bullet proof whoa and here. introduce guns and birds . Take dog hunting. The more birds the better.
Works every time.
Shoot lots of birds Cj

[ibbowhunting]

perfect start/finish in my opinion has the best Dvd set that I have watched, its a very good system but there are a lot of good systems out there, some only available in a book, also Mo (train with mo) Is on this forum and very helpful if you have questions about his method's. If you add your location there are a lot of helpful people on GDF, you may be surprise who might be will to help you out

[SetterNut]

Take a look at the book "Training with Mo" Simple and effective.

[Neil]

I do not think simple and dog training go together. All the books/systems suggested are good. But if you try to skim and skip to make it easier you will have poor results.

If you do not have the time and energy to learn to do it right, hire a pro.

If you are trying to save money, and do not have the time and energy, find another hoby.

[birddogger]

I do not think simple and dog training go together. All the books/systems suggested are good. But if you try to skim and skip to make it easier you will have poor results.

If you do not have the time and energy to learn to do it right, hire a pro.

If you are trying to save money, and do not have the time and energy, find another hoby.

Tough but true.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

I find training bird dogs pretty simple, especially when compared to high level retriever training. But as with all dog training, reading the dog is the hard part.

Whoa break the dog and go hunting for a season, not much simpler than that.

[Neil]

I find training bird dogs pretty simple, especially when compared to high level retriever training. But as with all dog training, reading the dog is the hard part.

Whoa break the dog and go hunting for a season, not much simpler than that.

How simple do you think it is to win the NC at Ames? There are thousands of retrievesr that have only been taught sit.

High level to high level, I would give the nod to the herding dogs.

And there is nothing simple about properly training whoa.

[crackerd]

I find training bird dogs pretty simple, especially when compared to high level retriever training. But as with all dog training, reading the dog is the hard part.

Whoa break the dog and go hunting for a season, not much simpler than that.

How simple do you think it is to win the NC at Ames? There are thousands of retrievesr that have only been taught sit.

High level to high level, I would give the nod to the herding dogs.

Not even close - or as they say with herding dogs, not even within the same shire, Neil. FT retrievers are in another galaxy with the level of their training.

I've said it before that there's a reason the average age of a dog in the open stakes at retriever trials is 61/2-7 years old - and trust me, it ain't because they're slow learners.

MG

[birddog1968]

The OP isn't looking to win Ames.....he's looking for a simple method to make him self a Gundog....simple stuff. Whoa and or having a dog honest on birds is Very simple.It ain't rocket science.

[Neil]

The OP isn't looking to win Ames.....he's looking for a simple method to make him self a Gundog....simple stuff. Whoa and or having a dog honest on birds is Very simple.It ain't rocket science.

And were he to want a retrieving or flushing gun dog, by your standards, is as simple. Retrievers sit, flushers come.

And which dog event takes the highest level of training is a matter of opinion. I have mine.

And none of it is simple. Not to finished standards.

[birddog1968]

I wouldn't want my gundogs finish broke.....I steady them all the way thru the shot tho, then let them slide back.

I want my gundogs honest, heck i don't even force whoa anymore.....not necessary. In my opinion training thru to STWF is simple,
thats not to say its easy, it takes time and diligence and more time....but that doesn't mean its complicated. Whats important in
broke dog stakes isn't necessarily whats important to someone who just wants a life long hunting partner.

Now if you want to talk retrievers what gets it done in a Retriever field trial is about what you need to get it done waterfowl hunting.
So those two compared together don't quite equal out. I don't need or want a pointing dog standing broke as a winged rooster runs to
the next zip code.

Why don't we let the OP tell us what he's looking to do with the dog, Im guessing hunting partner.

[Neil]

Anyone that thinks traing a pointing dog is simple, has either not trained one, or are simple themselves.

I spend at least 80% of my time developing them to find and handle birds. I agree they will all point, but there is so much more to it than whoa.

Neil

[birddog1968]

Really a shame you think you need to try and backhandedly insult someone because they don't agree with you.....shows what kinda person I am having a discussion with.

Do you think whoa or being dead broke has anything to do with hunting or shooting birds for a dog?
A dog that understands he's hunting for the gun and is cooperative is all thats needed whoa has very little
to do with a dog like this.

This dog has probably more birds shot over him than all the dogs that will be at ames this year combined. he's not really Whoa Broke or
dead broke. What he is , is honest on point, over the hill honest and FF'd, that's it. Thats all a hunter needs, got not a thing in the world to
do with being BROKE or WHOA.

[URL=http://s148.photobucket.com/user/can362 ... e.jpg.html]



BTW this one isn't whoa broke or dead broke either There's more than the field trial road to make a meat dog and its not as complicated as some like to make it. Delmar sure didn't make it complicated.

[birddog1968]

What I'm saying is if someone just wants a good honest dog to be a hunting partner for life they don't need to be put off or confused by all that goes into
making a dog for broke stakes. A hunting dog (meat dog) that works honestly for his handler can be developed easily and simply tho it will take time and
common sense reading the dog.

I can have a dog pointing birds honestly for the handler to flush , stop to flush and ready to go hunting in 8 weeks or less......its doesn't have to be complicated.
That's not to say the training stops there....its just beginning where real meat dog training takes place....working birds in the field.

There is more than one road to China in this case.

They can even win a thing or two if someone has a notion.

[Neil]

Whoa break the dog and go hunting for a season, not much simpler than that.

Are you so simple that you do not remember your own words?

You are right about not being able to have an intelligent conversation.

And unless you are going over the bag limit, I doubt you have killed more birds than I have behind my FC dogs.

There is nothing simple about developing a top notch dog.

I really do not enjoy arguing with those that hide behind an internet name.

[birddog1968]

Your too much.....if someone wants to do it the traditional way then yes whoa break and go hunting is the short answer to start. The Op asked for a method in written form which is why I suggested Delmar, as I learned alot from reading it including thinking for myself.

If someone can't think with an open mind then its the only way. I will agree to disagree.....getting a dog in shape to go hunting for life is simple, and I'll go to my grave saying it, and doing it. Who's arguing? I just stated it doesn't have to be complicated.

BTW that dogs got somewhere in the neighborhood of 14,000 birds shot over him and I rarely shoot.

[Neil]

Your too much.....if someone wants to do it the traditional way then yes whoa break and go hunting is the short answer to start. The Op asked for a method in written form which is why I suggested Delmar, as I learned alot from reading it including thinking for myself.

If someone can't think with an open mind then its the only way. I will agree to disagree.....getting a dog in shape to go hunting for life is simple, and I'll go to my grave saying it, and doing it.

BTW that dogs got somewhere in the neighborhood of 14,000 birds shot over him and I rarely shoot.

Delmar did not write a book. Bill Tarrant did on the Delmar Smith Method, were it as simple as you state, it would not have taken 300 pages.

14,000? Perhaps I should have specified wild birds. So if you are hunting on a preserve, I can understand your have no idea of the complexity of true hunting. There is a lot more than whoa breaking and taking them hunting as you said. You really can't back away from a direct quote and expect to have credibility.

[birddog1968]

Like i said your too much, you can quit arguing now, and slinging backhanded insults.....

I spend 2 months a year on the prairie and grew up with wild quail in abundance, but yes i do guide preserves as well......

BTW that quote is taken out of context, it was obviously applied to another thread another question. Because i personally choose to go another route these days does not mean Im wrong or backing away,or traditional whoa breaking is wrong, they are two ways to a similar end. Your Type A personality and need to prove people wrong is what leads you to think everyone is arguing. I was engaging in a discussion.....

I apprenticed for a well respected pro with many Ch titles on dogs and he said to me one day in the field "if people knew how easy this was they'd never bring me a dog" He was right in his own way and opened my eyes to thinking about dog training in a different way, taking much less out of a dog to get to the same end. What used to take a rope and a post and a barrel and chains and checkcords, i now do with a bag full of pigeons.

A quote from Delmars book (written by Bill Tarrent ) that was thought provoking for me was "he positioned horses so no matter what move they made they trained themselves"...this applies to dogs as well.

[Neil]

Read the 14th post on this thread!..

YOU ARE WRONG.

And doing a real disservice to a new trainer.

[birddog1968]

Oh quit being dramatic, of course I said whoa break the dog and go hunting, I suggested Delmars book for goodness sake.

The rest is food for thought and a discussion about treating a hunting dog like a broke stake dog....which isn't absolutely necessary.

Suggesting Delmar and then giving food for thought is no disservice , being a drama queen might be tho.

[Neil]

Oh quit being dramatic, of course I said whoa break the dog and go hunting, I suggested Delmars book for goodness sake.

The rest is food for thought and a discussion about treating a hunting dog like a broke stake dog....which isn't absolutely necessary.

Suggesting Delmar and then giving food for thought is no disservice , being a drama queen might be tho.

Are you drunk or just have memory problems normally?

You first tell me I took the quote out of context from a different thread, when confronted with facts, it is now it is my fault for not understanding what you really meant to say.

Training a dog properly is dramatic. It is not simple, and suggesting it is, is not food for thought it is just wrong.

[birddog1968]

im done with you Neil, you are obviously just argumentative. Enjoy.


OP don't get down thinking this is rocket science, its not. no matter what this fella says. Read all you can try and sit in with people who can show you and develop your own ideas. It's really not
anything anyone with a good head on their shoulders can't get done. My point (before the truck ran this over) was you don't need a professionals experience or take a dog to the highest levels to
have a good hunting dog. Delmars book is a good place to start.

[Sharon]

Learning to read is complicated too , but you don't tell your Grade 1 student the first year , that he'll have to learn to paraphrase abstracts. Simple is good for beginners ; they'll figure out the complexities sooner or later.

[Neil]

Learning to read is complicated too , but you don't tell your Grade 1 student the first year , that he'll have to learn to paraphrase abstracts. Simple is good for beginners ; they'll figure out the complexities sooner or later.

Sharon,

May I suggest that a more fitting analogy might be the dog as the first grader and the trainer as the teacher. I don't think many would entrust their 6 year olds to a teacher that learned from one simple book without jargon.

[Winchey]

This argument is ridiculous.

Training a bird dog is pretty simple, if your dog is any good you just need to get it on lots of birds and gun break it.

The books are good for certain methods to do things that are relatively simple to do anyways IMO.

Breaking a dog is pretty simple as well if you plan to or not. Just takes time gain the experience to know when the dog is ready to be broke, when to ease off on a dog, when to get on it.

The complicated stuff you are only going to figure out training, hunting and working dogs yourself, watching and talking to people who are really good at it, actually I still learn some by watching people that aren't so good as well.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

A well bred dog will figure out how to hunt given enough opportunities. The training comes with teaching them to hunt for you. Training with Mo is good. The best way to Train your Gun Dog, the Delmar Smith Method by Bill Tarrant is good but is no longer in print. You can buy it used on Amazon but it is a little pricey.

Don't short cut anything whichever method you use. "it takes as long as it takes".

[Sharon]

Learning to read is complicated too , but you don't tell your Grade 1 student the first year , that he'll have to learn to paraphrase abstracts. Simple is good for beginners ; they'll figure out the complexities sooner or later.

Sharon,

May I suggest that a more fitting analogy might be the dog as the first grader and the trainer as the teacher. I don't think many would entrust their 6 year olds to a teacher that learned from one simple book without jargon.

You're a very creative thinker .

[ezzy333]

One of the interesting things that came to light very early in my association with hunting dogs, there are two different routes that people take with them. Most of the dogs back in my early years that I had anything to do with were hunting dogs. They were bought to hunt with and the good puppies needed very little training except for a couple of years of experience along the normal pet training to become pretty darn good companions and birddogs. And this is still true if you get into the country where people have something to hunt.

But then I began to get acquainted with some of the field trial group and found a completely different goal and agenda for getting there. The thing that hit me the hardest is the fact that some in this group have basically changed the whole sport. There sport has become Dog Training. This has become a year round sport that can be enjoyed with very little ground, a minimum of birds and a blank pistol. This new sport has become commercialized to the tenth degree with books, videos, equipment, and even professionals who with a lot of work can eek out a living just training dogs. Some of them tour the country putting on seminars. This is a brand new game where occasionally the dogs are not ever hunted and birds are only a prop and not the goal.

I truly think, training or hunting are both great games, but there is a problem between some of the participants that comes about because they both involve sporting dogs, and to some extent birds, guns, and some of the same people. Both require some training but one it is the means to becoming a dog to hunt with, while the other sport has continued to make the training the life long endeavor to compete against other trainers in a man made sport called Field Trialing.

Like it was stated earlier, both are worthwhile sports that people can and do enjoy. But because of the similarity of the two, many participants have come to think that the one they like best is the better sport and have a hard time to look at the other with an open mind and just can not except that what they like is what everyone should like.

We can use this thread as an example, our original poster asked for a short simple way to train a hunting dog. And we all know that it can be done and has for many years. But then we have the other group that had made training a sport in itself, saying it can't be done. They are right if we are going to switch games to trialing but that isn't the subject at this time. But it is just hard to not let our personal opinions as well as our end game to get caught up in the whole discourse.

For the sake of the OP lets try to keep ourselves from misleading or confusing someone wanting to learn at a basic level and as he gains experience he can make a lot of the decisions on his own.

Ezzy

[polmaise]

One of the interesting things that came to light very early in my association with hunting dogs, there are two different routes that people take with them. Most of the dogs back in my early years that I had anything to do with were hunting dogs. They were bought to hunt with and the good puppies needed very little training except for a couple of years of experience along the normal pet training to become pretty darn good companions and birddogs. And this is still true if you get into the country where people have something to hunt.

But then I began to get acquainted with some of the field trial group and found a completely different goal and agenda for getting there. The thing that hit me the hardest is the fact that some in this group have basically changed the whole sport. There sport has become Dog Training. This has become a year round sport that can be enjoyed with very little ground, a minimum of birds and a blank pistol. This new sport has become commercialized to the tenth degree with books, videos, equipment, and even professionals who with a lot of work can eek out a living just training dogs. Some of them tour the country putting on seminars. This is a brand new game where occasionally the dogs are not ever hunted and birds are only a prop and not the goal.

I truly think, training or hunting are both great games, but there is a problem between some of the participants that comes about because they both involve sporting dogs, and to some extent birds, guns, and some of the same people. Both require some training but one it is the means to becoming a dog to hunt with, while the other sport has continued to make the training the life long endeavor to compete against other trainers in a man made sport called Field Trialing.

Like it was stated earlier, both are worthwhile sports that people can and do enjoy. But because of the similarity of the two, many participants have come to think that the one they like best is the better sport and have a hard time to look at the other with an open mind and just can not except that what they like is what everyone should like.

We can use this thread as an example, our original poster asked for a short simple way to train a hunting dog. And we all know that it can be done and has for many years. But then we have the other group that had made training a sport in itself, saying it can't be done. They are right if we are going to switch games to trialing but that isn't the subject at this time. But it is just hard to not let our personal opinions as well as our end game to get caught up in the whole discourse.

For the sake of the OP lets try to keep ourselves from misleading or confusing someone wanting to learn at a basic level and as he gains experience he can make a lot of the decisions on his own.

Ezzy

now there is a like button?...on the post?

[whatsnext]

I find training bird dogs pretty simple, especially when compared to high level retriever training. But as with all dog training, reading the dog is the hard part.

Whoa break the dog and go hunting for a season, not much simpler than that.

Let me see if i can take this post out of context ....... Ahhhh "bleep" someone beat me to it

[Neil]

I am looking for a simple training method for my pointer. Very simple and no extra jargon. Someone told me the "Burnt Creek Method" would be a good one any thought?

It is with the" VERY SIMPLE" I took issue.

Saying dog training is not very simple is not saying it is impossibly difficult.

[Sharon]

quote="ezzy333"]
One of the interesting things that came to light very early in my association with hunting dogs, there are two different routes that people take with them. Most of the dogs back in my early years that I had anything to do with were hunting dogs. They were bought to hunt with and the good puppies needed very little training except for a couple of years of experience along the normal pet training to become pretty darn good companions and birddogs. And this is still true if you get into the country where people have something to hunt.

But then I began to get acquainted with some of the field trial group and found a completely different goal and agenda for getting there. The thing that hit me the hardest is the fact that some in this group have basically changed the whole sport. There sport has become Dog Training. This has become a year round sport that can be enjoyed with very little ground, a minimum of birds and a blank pistol. This new sport has become commercialized to the tenth degree with books, videos, equipment, and even professionals who with a lot of work can eek out a living just training dogs. Some of them tour the country putting on seminars. This is a brand new game where occasionally the dogs are not ever hunted and birds are only a prop and not the goal.

I truly think, training or hunting are both great games, but there is a problem between some of the participants that comes about because they both involve sporting dogs, and to some extent birds, guns, and some of the same people. Both require some training but one it is the means to becoming a dog to hunt with, while the other sport has continued to make the training the life long endeavor to compete against other trainers in a man made sport called Field Trialing.

Like it was stated earlier, both are worthwhile sports that people can and do enjoy. But because of the similarity of the two, many participants have come to think that the one they like best is the better sport and have a hard time to look at the other with an open mind and just can not except that what they like is what everyone should like.

We can use this thread as an example, our original poster asked for a short simple way to train a hunting dog. And we all know that it can be done and has for many years. But then we have the other group that had made training a sport in itself, saying it can't be done. They are right if we are going to switch games to trialing but that isn't the subject at this time. But it is just hard to not let our personal opinions as well as our end game to get caught up in the whole discourse.

For the sake of the OP lets try to keep ourselves from misleading or confusing someone wanting to learn at a basic level and as he gains experience he can make a lot of the decisions on his own.

Ezzy[/quote]

..................................................


I wondered where you were. WEll said!

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I love to Field Trial and I love to train. Having said that, "Bravo Ezzy". I think you are right.

[birddogger]

Another plus for Ezzy's post. Very nicely worded and accurate post. My only concern was with the OP's need for a method that didn't take a lot of time. I agree it is not complicated to have a seviceable hunting dog, providing you start with a dog that has all the natural instincts. But, for me at least, it takes a lot of time to have one that is a pleasure to hunt with. I guess what I am trying to say is I agree that it is not at all complicated but you do need the time to give the dog oportunities. Given a good dog and time to work with him/her, all you really have to do is not screw him up.

Charlie