walking fetch to throwing marks?

[chevyrulz]

any tips on transitioning my pup from walking fetch to throwing marks?

I've only done one day (two 10 minute sessions) of throwing marks, but it wasn't as successful as I'd hoped. I plan to repeat, & back up to more walking fetch if necessary. Mostly, I'm curious if there's anything I can do to help her get it more easily? Specifically, is there anything I can watch for in her behavior to guide my training drills toward success. I'm moving forward from having her pickup bumpers on the ground (walking fetch), to actually tossing them & having her go get them (throwing marks). I'm eager for advice & criticism, and willing to provide more info upon request. Maybe I skipped a step, moved to quickly, or am using an inferior FF method (I doubt this). I attribute the difficulty to my lack of training experience (this is my 1st dog). Basically, I'm asking is FF over yet? Thanks y'all

[EvanG]

Have you forced on birds prior to going to the field? There is a simple process that will prepare your dog well, but it is dependent upon how well you did your force work.

EvanG

[chevyrulz]

I haven't forced on birds. During walking fetch, she's noticeably more willing to pickup the dowel that I used to teach hold versus the bumpers.

[EvanG]

I haven't forced on birds. During walking fetch, she's noticeably more willing to pickup the dowel that I used to teach hold versus the bumpers.

What force fetch program are you following?



EvanG

[DonF]

What is a walking fetch? What is throwing marks?

I've gotten away from FF, I don't have the patience for it any more and I don't compete anymore. I start off with a pup in a hallway and later move outside with a cc.

[EvanG]

What is a walking fetch?

Walking Fetch works on a standard principle of dog behavior that movement tends to disrupt a dog's concentration on a task. When a trainer has progressed through "Hold", and then to "Fetch" (either toe hitch or ear pinch) thoroughly, we then proceed to the next step, which is Walking Fetch. This proofs how well your dog is understanding 'fetch', as well as the pressure conditioning aspect of FF. Expect them to quickly spit the fetch object early in the walking portion of this. Your response is to quickly force them on the object, and to keep following that routine until the dog clearly understands that letting go of the object is not an option, even if they are distracted by movement. That begins solidifying fetch & hold. But there are more steps. If you have not fully completed a modern sequential course in force fetch you're missing a great deal. FF is NOT merely about a hand-delivery.

What is throwing marks?

A "Mark" is a fallen bird or bumper that the dog visually 'marks' as he sees it go down. They instinctively calculate how far away it is, and in what direction so they can locate it accurately, even if it's a great distance away. As it is very enjoyable for most dogs to retrieve, throwing marks during this period is therapeutic for them - keeping the dog's attitude up.

I've gotten away from FF, I don't have the patience for it any more and I don't compete anymore. I start off with a pup in a hallway and later move outside with a cc.

From that statement I dare say you have never really taken a dog through a modern, sequential FF program. It's worth learning.



EvanG

[chevyrulz]

Don, walking fetch is laying out 3 or 4 items in a line, walking past the items, & having her pickup each one as we pass it.

after she did a few days of reliable walking fetch, I started throwing marks @ about 10 yds in mowed grass. Initially, she was all about it, but after a couple successful tosses (I should have stopped here...), I started having to guide her to them, & use more pressure than I feel like a more experienced trainer would have had to use. Perhaps, I'm wrong & need to give her a chance to practice a couple days. We did more walking fetch today & no throwing marks. She did great, so I'm headed home from work now to start with 1 or 2 walking fetches & then a few marks, and plan to throw marks tomorrow before & after work.

Evan, I'm using the program outlined in Chris Aiken's video "Duck Dog Basics". I probably have not done enough walking fetch, & threw the marks too far.

[chevyrulz]

I've come to the conclusion that I was being too soft on her. She was deciding not to sit, laying down instead of sitting, sitting in front of me instead of at heel, laying down when I told her to fetch. I turned up the pressure by becoming more of a perfection nazi so to speak, & she did great this morning. She tore out after each mark with the drive I've been hoping for. Wish me luck that this progress continues!

[Del Lolo]

Don, walking fetch is laying out 3 or 4 items in a line, walking past the items, & having her pickup each one as we pass it.

You can lay out 6 to 8 bumpers and incorporate "Fetch -- No Fetch".

[EvanG]

Don, walking fetch is laying out 3 or 4 items in a line, walking past the items, & having her pickup each one as we pass it.

It should be understood that Walking Fetch is not just having the dog pick up a few bumpers. If you haven't forced on those bumpers you've missed a great deal.

after she did a few days of reliable walking fetch, I started throwing marks @ about 10 yds in mowed grass. Initially, she was all about it, but after a couple successful tosses (I should have stopped here...), I started having to guide her to them, & use more pressure than I feel like a more experienced trainer would have had to use.

You had to "guide her" to marks only 10 yards away? Is that right?

Evan, I'm using the program outlined in Chris Aiken's video "Duck Dog Basics". I probably have not done enough walking fetch, & threw the marks too far.

I suspect you're right, except for the distance issue. How far have you thrown marks?

EvanG

[DonF]

I don't know much at all anymore about working with retriever's, never did know a lot other than when you say fetch, the dog needs to fetch. I do with my pointing dogs the same as I did with my Labs. I start them in a mowed flat field with short fetch's and multiple fetch's. When they think they're pretty good there, I start throwing farther and into heavy cover as I go. Just do one at a time and work back up to three. But never farther than I can throw a dead or frozen bird. I've never shot a triple but I do throw the third in practice, I throw three to work on the dog marking and taking a lead off my hand for what direction to go for the next retrieve. Works pretty well but they will never win a retriever contest. Hey, they're setters! I suspect that a retriever trainer, a good retriever trainer could make them a whole lot better.

[chevyrulz]

If you haven't forced on those bumpers you've missed a great deal

I forced on the bumpers. We had 4 or 5 sessions of basically flawless walking fetch before I threw the 1st mark. Initially, she preferred the dowel over the bumpers on walking fetch, but I have gotten her past that & she now doesn't care what item we're fetching.

You had to "guide her" to marks only 10 yards away? Is that right?

Correct.

I suspect you're right, except for the distance issue. How far have you thrown marks?

20 or 30 yards with success, but she's not reliable on the longer ones yet.

"Fetch -- No Fetch".

Please elaborate

[chevyrulz]

still curious about the "fetch - no fetch", i assume you mean line up a bunch of bumpers & make sure she knows only to fetch on command by skipping a bumper or 2 during walking fetch. i seem to be stuck in a rut on throwing marks. i'm not sure whether repetition is good for laying the foundation, or if i'm hurting her drive. she's fine throwing to 1st, 2nd, 3rd base, but if i throw marks in a new location it's like she has no clue what i'm asking her. any tips on getting her to focus on the bumper more? i think her problem is she's not watching the bumper as attentively as she should

[Fun dog]

I'm no expert, but when I was trying to get my dog to do long pile drives I had to back up and start really close. Maybe 10 feet. Any more than 30 feet and she was totally confused so back to 10 feet. Finally things started to click and now she is running 100 yards and enjoying it. Actually I started back at the beginning of Force Fetch even though she'd been through it. I would take her out 3 times a day for short sessions. Repetition, repetition, repetition! Relax, enjoy the time with the dog, don't skip any steps, and don't be in a hurry. Keep the sessions short and try to end on a positive note. And don't forget the fun bumpers.

[Del Lolo]

1. still curious about the "fetch - no fetch", i assume you mean line up a bunch of bumpers & make sure she knows only to fetch on command by skipping a bumper or 2 during walking fetch.

2. i seem to be stuck in a rut on throwing marks. i'm not sure whether repetition is good for laying the foundation, or if i'm hurting her drive. she's fine throwing to 1st, 2nd, 3rd base, but if i throw marks in a new location it's like she has no clue what i'm asking her. any tips on getting her to focus on the bumper more? i think her problem is she's not watching the bumper as attentively as she should

1. Correct -- you can also add in "leave it" for the bumpers that are not to be picked up
2. You need a helper -- out in the field to get the dog's attention and then throw the bumper.
If ONLY you throw the bumpers, the dog will become accostomed to that distance and won't Mark / retrieve well in a different situation / location.
Or shoot a blank and then throw.
Using real birds will help as well.

[EvanG]

If you haven't forced on those bumpers you've missed a great deal

I forced on the bumpers. We had 4 or 5 sessions of basically flawless walking fetch before I threw the 1st mark. Initially, she preferred the dowel over the bumpers on walking fetch, but I have gotten her past that & she now doesn't care what item we're fetching.

How old is this dog? Did you start throwing any kind of marks early, as in 7-8 weeks?

You had to "guide her" to marks only 10 yards away? Is that right?

Correct.

What breed of dog?

I suspect you're right, except for the distance issue. How far have you thrown marks?

20 or 30 yards with success, but she's not reliable on the longer ones yet.

Does this pup charge hard to retrieve, or just trot, etc?

"Fetch -- No Fetch".

Please elaborate

"Fetch-no-fetch" is a step in the FF process that follows Walking Fetch. Most often when a dog has reached this point in FF they're maniacal to fetch anything. That's good. But you need to drive the bus, so to speak. You're the coach on this team, and you call the shots. That includes 'when' the dog fetches, not just THAT he fetches. So, just like Walking Fetch, the dog is on leash or check cord, and a line of bumpers are laid out in a row - at least 6 feet apart. You begin walking fetch as usual, fetching each bumper as you come to it; "Heel", "Fetch", "Sit" (or "Whoa" depending on type of dog), "Drop" (release the bumper as commanded), and continue to heel toward the next bumper.

The drill converts to 'fetch-no-fetch' at your discretion. You'll simply heel the dog as usual, but no allow him to fetch unless commanded. I'm explaining this in brief here. Please understand that detailed instruction is immensely helpful. This is only one of many reasons why I wrote a whole book about force fetch, so anyone can do it on their own. Augmenting that is a 2-disk DVD set by the same name; SmartFetch. I don't suggest diving into FF without solid coursework as a guide, whether it's my material or not.

EvanG

[Sharon]

Chevy: You just got a $1000. worth of free advice.

[chevyrulz]

Evan, thank you for all the info you've shared.

How old is this dog?

1 year as of 10/31/13

Did you start throwing any kind of marks early, as in 7-8 weeks?

Yes, around 9 weeks old

What breed of dog?

German Shorthaired Pointer (female)

Does this pup charge hard to retrieve, or just trot, etc?

Sometimes she charges hard, but sometimes she seems to trot...

1. Correct -- you can also add in "leave it" for the bumpers that are not to be picked up

She's very familiar with "leave it" so I'll go back & do some fetch-no fetch before we continue throwing more marks

2. You need a helper -- out in the field to get the dog's attention and then throw the bumper.
If ONLY you throw the bumpers, the dog will become accostomed to that distance and won't Mark / retrieve well in a different situation / location.
Or shoot a blank and then throw.
Using real birds will help as well.

Great info, thank you

Relax, enjoy the time with the dog, don't skip any steps, and don't be in a hurry. Keep the sessions short and try to end on a positive note. And don't forget the fun bumpers.

definitely

Chevy: You just got a $1000. worth of free advice.

Indeed, and I am grateful!

[EvanG]

It does not require a helper to do 'fetch-no-fetch' per SmartFetch. I'm not sure what Id do with one. But I'm also not sure this dog would benefit from the exercise unless she's a lot "fetch-ier" that she sounds. Sounds more like she needs to move on to pile work, and plenty of it. Throw marks for now at close range in zero cover; putting green type grass. You want to nurture success.

EvanG

[Georgia Boy]

Evan, I am not sure what you recommend in your program but I usually go from the table, to walking fetch, then to the pile before moving on to anything else. I am not sure what the OP expects for a finished product but he should keep in mind that he is working with a GSP. All these marks and memory stuff is a lab game and what the field trial dogs are bred for, not saying a GSP or another breed cant do some of the basic stuff but I honestly don't think most will ever perform to the level of top retrievers.

[chevyrulz]

Thanks for your input GeorgiaBoy, I do understand my GSP is wired differently than a true retriever breed like a lab, and this is why I've started the discussion to seek the advice of those experienced with FF'ing different breeds. The FF method I'm using is based on Labrador Retrievers, but as I understand FF, the basic idea of it has nothing to do with the breed, although it very well may be easier with certain breeds. I have no expectation of perfection, nor do I plan to trail her. I am, however, hoping to be able to burn up some of her seemingly endless energy playing fetch, and I'd like her to join me in the dove field or the duck blind. She actually did very well on her 1st dove hunt, she sat still obeying commands, I did have to lead her to the 1st bird, and coax her to pick it up, but once in her mouth, she followed me back my seat carrying the bird softly, & sat by me until I took it from her. The 2nd bird, I just gave her a general direction, & she took over from there. My buddy had also brought his pointer on his 1st hunt this day, his was well mannered, but chewed up the 1st bird, so I'm counting my blessings there!

It does not require a helper to do 'fetch-no-fetch' per SmartFetch. I'm not sure what Id do with one.

Indeed

I'm also not sure this dog would benefit from the exercise unless she's a lot "fetch-ier" that she sounds.

Interesting, with this in mind, she trotted pretty slow this morning to & from the marks, even seemed hesitant to come/heel for me to toss the 1st one, but then she kicked it in high gear for some fun bumpers, once I did 2 of those & she seemed looking forward to the 3rd, I stopped the session praising her for a job well done.

One thing occurred to me, could my "ending the training on a positive note" by letting her play with another dog or run free for a bit after a training session be causing her apprehension to train? I worried that's the case, & so this morning after I praised her interest in the fun bumpers, we stopped, & went back inside, no play time to run free or play with another dog. I've been gentle, positive, and kept sessions short, ending on success/praise but I'm starting to feel like she's got this "o no, not this again" look when I take her out to toss marks.