Training a pointer to hunt difficult terrain

Nozzer · Post by **Nozzer** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:46 pm

My Brittany is my first gun dog I've ever trained and this has been my first year hunting over him. He's 1.5 years old and very birdy. I hunt in central Oregon which often means either steep hills or marshy terrain in cattails taller than I am. The difficulty is that this terrain is often not conducive to my dog remaining staunch on point especially when hunting pheasant or chukkar. I can't tell if he's on point in the cattails and often he's just happening on birds on incredibly steep hills. Do you care much for form when hunting a pointing breed in this terrain or have any exercise recommendations to make my dog a better hunter in such situations? Thanks!

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:51 pm

I would take him for walks in the cover you will be hunting to condition him for the steep terrain.

gregm · Post by **gregm** » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:34 pm

I hunt the same kind of areas and have found that a gps unit is a must have. I use the Garmin Alpha and wouldn't hunt without it. I hunt some bad areas also and with the alpha I can find her even in the thickest cover.
As far as form go's that will come with lot's of exposer with wild birds. This has been a tuff year so far for chukars with a lot of birds flushing wild. I try to always hunt into the wind when possible to give her a chance to scent birds before she runs over them.
Keep after em!!!
Greg

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:16 am

Nozzer wrote:My Brittany is my first gun dog I've ever trained and this has been my first year hunting over him. He's 1.5 years old and very birdy. I hunt in central Oregon which often means either steep hills or marshy terrain in cattails taller than I am. The difficulty is that this terrain is often not conducive to my dog remaining staunch on point especially when hunting pheasant or chukkar. I can't tell if he's on point in the cattails and often he's just happening on birds on incredibly steep hills. Do you care much for form when hunting a pointing breed in this terrain or have any exercise recommendations to make my dog a better hunter in such situations? Thanks!

I was hoping someone would ask the questions you are asking because I have the same issues with my Britt who just turned 3. I also hunt thick cover because that's where the birds are, especially when the pressure is on. Sometimes I cant tell if he is on point or just taking his time following a sent. When he spends too much time in a thicket I have learned to get ready for a shot. That's why I tell everyone he is a pointer in the open and a flusher in the thickets. I also hear some experienced dog hunters say lose the bell. I never had one but can still hear a little jingle from his collar. It kills me not knowing what's going on in the thick stuff but that's where the most action is to be had. So how about some tips from the experience? How do we hunt heavy cover with a pointer, cover so thick that the dog can crawl through but limits the ability to walk through or see what he is doing in there. Briars over my head with thick brush in between to thick to see the dog. Is it acceptable to send a pointer in there and order him to get those birds? Or am I making a mistake with my pointer?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:50 pm

:lol:Seriously Walkos you expect us old more experienced guys to give you an answer when you told us in another thread our experience means nothing!! Your joking right? :roll:

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:53 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote::lol:Seriously Walkos you expect us old more experienced guys to give you an answer when you told us in another thread our experience means nothing!! Your joking right? :roll:

Yeah, but are you really older because I thought you were like 13......

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:03 am

There's actually some experienced hunters on here that have respect for science and research who realize that sometimes the good old ways weren't always the best ways. To some 12 years is old for a dog, to others 20 is so I'll stick with science and 20 Mr. experience....

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:24 am

Hunting a pointing dog in Cattails is really not an ideal situation. You really should be going in there and flushing the bird, rather than a pointing dog flushing it. I don't hunt my dogs in that type of cover, but I have lots of other areas to hunt.
But I have had times where I have had a dog on point under a big plum thicket, and I had to leave my gun outside the thicket, so I could crawl in and flush the bird.

But as far as training a dog to hunt other cover, at least with mine, they learn how to handle the cover. Mix a smart bird dog and ground with birds in it, and the dog will figure out how to hunt the birds.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:43 am

gregm wrote:I hunt the same kind of areas and have found that a gps unit is a must have. I use the Garmin Alpha and wouldn't hunt without it. I hunt some bad areas also and with the alpha I can find her even in the thickest cover.
As far as form go's that will come with lot's of exposer with wild birds. This has been a tuff year so far for chukars with a lot of birds flushing wild. I try to always hunt into the wind when possible to give her a chance to scent birds before she runs over them.
Keep after em!!!
Greg

I have also heard guys say that are quite helpful, never used one but did look into them a while back. I would imagine hunting in Oregon would make them kind of a must have. I also let my dog use the wind, sometimes I'll even let him get behind me so he can go back over ground he already covered especially if he holds interest in a particular area. The lower ground cover I hunt is so thick that the birds have been holding really tight, but the cock birds sometimes run like rabbits even through that thick cover when the dog gets too close and then he is forced to pursue them sometimes busting them. I noticed you fish for steelhead. I have done it a few times and had a blast fishing some streams up in Oswego NY near lake Ontario.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:49 am

If your dog is consistently flushing birds in thick cover or not, IMO it is most likely one of two things an inexperienced dog that is still trying to figure out how to handle wild birds or a training issue that needs to be addressed in a controlled situation.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:24 am

ACooper wrote:If your dog is consistently flushing birds in thick cover or not, IMO it is most likely one of two things an inexperienced dog that is still trying to figure out how to handle wild birds or a training issue that needs to be addressed in a controlled situation.

The thing is when he is in lower cover, finds a bird and I can see him he will hold point especially if I tell him to hold. The problem is the areas I hunt get lots of hunting pressure and some of the hunters use dogs also. After a few days of pressure those birds get into the thickest cover they can find and some of it is nearly impossible to walk through so I am thinking that he is on point sometimes in that thick cover but gets impatient or decides I'm not coming at all and decides to make things happen on his own. So my question is will hunting with him this way discourage him from what he was meant to do, point?

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:32 am

walkos5 wrote:
ACooper wrote:If your dog is consistently flushing birds in thick cover or not, IMO it is most likely one of two things an inexperienced dog that is still trying to figure out how to handle wild birds or a training issue that needs to be addressed in a controlled situation.
The thing is when he is in lower cover, finds a bird and I can see him he will hold point especially if I tell him to hold. The problem is the areas I hunt get lots of hunting pressure and some of the hunters use dogs also. After a few days of pressure those birds get into the thickest cover they can find and some of it is nearly impossible to walk through so I am thinking that he is on point sometimes in that thick cover but gets impatient or decides I'm not coming at all and decides to make things happen on his own. So my question is will hunting with him this way discourage him from what he was meant to do, point?

If the cover is to thick to use a pointing dog than hunt different cover or get a flusher it is that simple, from the sounds of how you are handling the pup you are just going to create problems. You should never have to talk to a dog to get him/her to handle a bird correctly an honest steady dog is just that no matter where you are or how far away you are from the pup.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:42 am

put a beeper on him. works great in frozen cattails and the deer trails are like highways. dogs will quickly learn to honor beepers.........................Cj

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:03 am

There is an old saying "Broke over the hill" from the sounds of it your dog is not "Broke over the hill". In this case there isn't a hill. But you get the idea. Get a Garmin, a beeper, a bell etc. The dog finding birds and you not able to find him is reinforcing the behavior.

One of my first bird dogs was a pointer bitch that ran really big (actually the dog I killed my first quail over), in OK in the late 80s and 90s the quail numbers were still pretty good so we could find birds, however she would find birds way out. Many times we would not know where she was until you saw or heard the covey flush. We started her with a bell and then moved to a beeper, being able to find her on point and reinforce the behavior she learned what was expected. This was an on going problem for 4-5 years until we were able to keep better track of her.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:18 pm

ACooper wrote:There is an old saying "Broke over the hill" from the sounds of it your dog is not "Broke over the hill". In this case there isn't a hill. But you get the idea. Get a Garmin, a beeper, a bell etc. The dog finding birds and you not able to find him is reinforcing the behavior.

One of my first bird dogs was a pointer bitch that ran really big (actually the dog I killed my first quail over), in OK in the late 80s and 90s the quail numbers were still pretty good so we could find birds, however she would find birds way out. Many times we would not know where she was until you saw or heard the covey flush. We started her with a bell and then moved to a beeper, being able to find her on point and reinforce the behavior she learned what was expected. This was an on going problem for 4-5 years until we were able to keep better track of her.

The bell sounds a lot cheaper so I'll go that rout first, as far as range goes he does range a bit far but has been has been getting better at staying within a more reasonable range. The birds I hunt are put and take and the hens seem to hold tight but the cock birds are always trying to run and its hard to reinforce a dog to hold point with these birds. Most of the time when he holds his point its usually a hen that flushes.

Whatsnext, I'm not getting your point. Almost every place I hunt here in PA is nothing but thick cover its not like the bean field or cut corn field hunts I see on TV. Those birds use that thick cover and are rarely out in the knee high grass. How do I reinforce holding point without communication or my voice?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:29 pm

my problem with a bell is you can't hear it when the dog is standing................................Cj

mlittle · Post by **mlittle** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:45 pm

You need to get he dog to understand it is supposed to stand still when on birds. You will flush the bird for him. Having to whoa the dog to get it to stand is not ideal. Especially not ideal when you are in a situation that you cant see the dog.

I personally think that from what I read, that you need to take some time and take the dog back to some basic training. Working on standing still, working on holding point without you having to stop him. Working on standing while you flush. How whoa broke is he? Can you stop him in a field when he is running? You have gotta take out some chase, and get him to hunt for you, and not for himself.

I have had those issues myself. I am sure that most all of us have. It seems you probably have skipped some steps in the training, trying to get into the field with the dog. It is very common, and hard not to let yourself do it. I have certainly been guilty of it!

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:48 pm

mlittle wrote:You need to get he dog to understand it is supposed to stand still when on birds. You will flush the bird for him. Having to whoa the dog to get it to stand is not ideal. Especially not ideal when you are in a situation that you cant see the dog.

I personally think that from what I read, that you need to take some time and take the dog back to some basic training. Working on standing still, working on holding point without you having to stop him. Working on standing while you flush. How whoa broke is he? Can you stop him in a field when he is running? You have gotta take out some chase, and get him to hunt for you, and not for himself.

I have had those issues myself. I am sure that most all of us have. It seems you probably have skipped some steps in the training, trying to get into the field with the dog. It is very common, and hard not to let yourself do it. I have certainly been guilty of it!

I hate to admit it but I think you are correct in that he does seem to hunt more for himself then me and his whoa broke is less then ideal but I think I may also have the most head strong stubborn dog alive with a top notch nose though. I can't stop him while running but he does turn on command when getting too far out and work his way back to me. I have a cheap e-collar and I do use it sparingly . I will say though he does often look to me and follows my hand signals well as to where I want him to hunt next, meaning direction. He also seems to be in charge of the pace at which we hunt and that is sometimes a problem too. I wish I could slow him down some. He is always in such a hurry to hunt and find some birds, and sometimes leaves me out of breath.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:56 pm

walkos5 wrote:
I can't stop him while running but he does turn on command when getting too far out and work his way back to me.

If you can't stop the dog when it's running then dog isn't whoa broke.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:55 pm

Also if you are shooting the birds he pushes out of the cattails you might be causing some of the problem. If you are shooting birds that he kicks up, you are rewarding him for kicking them up. If you limit yourself to just shooting birds he lets YOU kick up, he will start to get the idea that the only way he will get a bird in his mouth is if You kick them up. After hunting season is over, I'd get some pigeons and work him in shorter grass where you can see him and know what he is doing. If he can't catch them and you don't shoot them unless he holds point and lets you kick them up--- you will be on a good start towards next hunting season.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:32 am

Nozzer wrote:My Brittany is my first gun dog I've ever trained and this has been my first year hunting over him. He's 1.5 years old and very birdy. I hunt in central Oregon which often means either steep hills or marshy terrain in cattails taller than I am. The difficulty is that this terrain is often not conducive to my dog remaining staunch on point especially when hunting pheasant or chukkar. I can't tell if he's on point in the cattails and often he's just happening on birds on incredibly steep hills. Do you care much for form when hunting a pointing breed in this terrain or have any exercise recommendations to make my dog a better hunter in such situations? Thanks!

Yes, "form" is indicative, to me, of a positive event that can allow the opportunity for continual reenforcement of control.
I prefer to be the one to flush the bird or release the dog as having a dog hold until released is a good thing well past any single event with a bird.
Steady to flush or bang would be for others as well....for me, less so.

But, is that making the dog a better hunter...doubtful as that comes more with experience with birds or genetics developed and realized.
Or, does that factor into hunting the so-called heavy cover...doubtful again.
A pointer though, to me, should never flush a bird as that can soon become fun...nor should a hunter shoot a bird mishandled in whatever degree he defines mishandled.
I held off shooting two pheasants on Sat. because I was unsure how a 10 month old setter of a friend acted after his initial point.
Training or shooting?...always a choice....always carrying a tradeoff.

In very heavy cover, how the bird feels re safety tells the tale best....they may move about, which can always be tough for young dogs, until they reach whatever in the cover gives them a sense of security or warrants a need to flush.
To a large degree, we will never know what makes the bird act.
Knowing whether a dog is in point or finding a dog on point in heavy cover is a different deal entire then "staunch" and one made easier, a bit, with the new electronics available.
That is a choice involving practicality and the pocketbook.
I several years ago chose a Tracker and then an Astro, not for any point indication, but for simple peace of mind....there lies the greatest value of those particular electronics and not in the identification of a dog pointing.

Sounds to me like you actually have a couple of different questions but I doubt that the cover is feeding into whether your dog stays "staunch"..more likely it is the birds and, especially, the training the pup receives.
I would advise a good trainer and cease to fret over thick cover.
Plus, one does not need to kill 'em all and some situations will exist where perfect is unachievable....move on in that case and enjoy the important parts of the day.

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