Programs

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S&J gsp
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Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:14 am

A lot of new owners ask for a program to follow. Here are my thoughts on this pick a program that you understand and follow that program. There are some good and some that will get you by. Now before I here is that good trainers adapt to the dog you are correct they do but they stick to the program that they use. Until about 10 days ago I understood the program that I'm using but didn't understand it. In talking to two of the best dog people I know now I understand. With that said the folks I talked to or on here and I consider them friends even though I haven't meet them yet.

In mixing programs you will get a confused dog and more training time

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Re: Programs

Post by DonF » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:52 am

Good post! By the time you've done a few dogs sticking strictly to the plan, you'll learn a lot about reading the dog and how to tweak the program to suit yourself. Important to learn one program and stick with it until you really understand it. I use Delmars plan. Lot of things I've changed over the years but the basics are still in there!
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S&J gsp
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Re: Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:49 am

Don I glad you mentioned reading a dog. There is a lot of confusion about that when I read a dog I read the whole dog eyes, ears, posture, the way it moves, how it moves. There is a lot to reading a dog. Also the amount of pressure you put on a dog. I was training with a guy about 3 years ago when I watched him take a nice young pointer and put so much pressure on that dog the next time the dog found a bird it was 2" off the ground almost flat on his stomach that dog to this day still dose that. He miss read the dog.

I was hoping more people would have got in on this.

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Re: Programs

Post by DonF » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:02 am

You would thing more people would be on here. Not much time goes by before someone ask's about what program to use. I though more would post here too.
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Re: Programs

Post by Fun dog » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:49 pm

I was training my first birddog pup last year. I chose the Perfect Start/Finish program by Jon Hahn. We moved through the program step by step and I ended up with a pretty decent birddog. Steady to WSF by the time she was a year old without any undue pressure put on her. The secret is to make sure they are good at step one before moving on to step two. By the time they get to the more complicated things it's almost anticlimactic as the foundation laid leads you into the more difficult items and makes it look easy. Skip a step, or two, and you're toast. If the dog starts to look frustrated, back up a step, before moving on again. It is important to stick with whatever program you chose though. Learning to read your dog is really important as well. They will tell you a lot. At some point as you gain confidence and experience you may incorporate things you've learned from other people or programs. Ask questions of everyone who has even the slightest bit of dog experience. Then weigh over the answer and decide if it is something that will work with you and your dog. One thing I've found is that if I'm working on my dog on anything she becomes better on the things she's already learned, but we are not working on at the time. Stop mentally stimulating the dog and they start to go backwards. Dogs like to be challenged!
Last edited by Fun dog on Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Programs

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:42 pm

I've used PS and PF DVD's as well - I like Jon's method and I have learned a ton from his clinics.

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Re: Programs

Post by ibbowhunting » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:40 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I've used PS and PF DVD's as well - I like Jon's method and I have learned a ton from his clinics.

2x

PS and PF are the most complete set of dvd I have seen yet, and Jon's clinics is the most professional clinic, I've attended and well worth the time and money

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Re: Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:40 am

OK I've already have a program. The post was about mixing and matching and about watching it all come together to where the dog and you have a complete understanding of the program. I'm using training with Mo but when I read the book and followed the program something was missing it is a very good laid out program. Just as all the other ones mentioned along with a few others. I understood what I was doing but in talking to Jonesy it all came together. The point of this was that until you see all the little things that can't be written or showed in a video you truly can't say you understand the program. Like reading a dog or the small steps that most miss in the transtions. I'd say that most of the training mistakes are in transition from check cord to collar, or launchers to lose birds and inconsity in the timing of corrections

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Re: Programs

Post by Maurice » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:38 am

You are right S J, the little things matter the most imo. The method is simple and straight forward but reading the dog and knowing when to move ahead or slow down takes time to come together. I am glad you are giving it a chance. I hope to meet you 1 day soon.

Mo

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Re: Programs

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:32 am

+1, thanks S&J.
Patience, is probably, one of the hardest things in life, to build. We all, have problems with it sometimes!! <BG> Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:35 am

Well guys one of the best things I've done so far is taking a few short videos and looking at my self as well as the dog and having a friend look at and tell me what his thoughts were on them. He also gave me away to move forward and keep making progress

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Re: Programs

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:49 am

I don't really follow anyone's particular program myself. I have taken some portions of several different methods that seem to work for me and the dogs.

I think that following a prescribed program can help the novice, but several posters have mentioned some of the things that REALLY matter.

My thoughts:

First and foremost is gaining the dogs trust and respect. You do this by being firm, fair, consistent, kind and quick to reward correct behavior. if a dog likes you and respects you, there is literally nothing you cannot teach the dog to do for you. If the dog dislikes and mistrusts or fears you, it will hold back... every step of the way. You may get where you want with the dog, but it will be a fight.

Second you need to get your hands on the dog. A firm, but gentle and reassuring touch is by far...the best training tool, especially when coupled with a quiet, calm, reassuring voice.

Knowing when to back off, knowing when to change tactics and especially...knowing when to quit...are things that you have to see and feel from your interactions with the dog. As has been said...learning to read the dog.

For me, when I was a single dog owner...the hardest darn thing was knowing when to quit. The dog would do something just right...and then I would set it up and the dog would do it just right a second time.

Did I quit a winner? NOOOOOOOOO. I just HAD to see it ONE MORE TIME. Duh.

Guess what... the dog screwed up and instead of praise I had to apply a correction. Then I had to do it several more times until I got the same two perfect reps that I had when I started.

Quitting a winner. It is a very hard lesson for the one dog owner to learn. Heck I still screw that one up fairly regularly. :D :D


Several posters mentioned patience. All I will say is that patience is a virtue...that I have never seem to have enough of. Oh well. :(

I think there are many good ways to get from here to there with a dog and a lot of those ways may work better for some people and some dogs, based on their respective temperaments and their physical situations as far as grounds, birds, facilites, available time, etc.

The thing that never changes and that I believe is the foundation of every successful training method...is the trusting, respectful nature of the relationship between the teacher and the student.

RayG

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Re: Programs

Post by aulrich » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:52 am

Even if you are following one program, having knowledge of other programs can be useful if you hang up on a step. All the programs are basically skinning the same cat, but doing it is slightly different ways, so it can be helpful to approach the same step from a different direction.

Another thing is some programs are thin on certain subjects. PS/PF I found thin on e-collar conditioning and it has no force fetch. So I ended up having to use sections from other programs.

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Re: Programs

Post by rinker » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:30 pm

There is a pattern on this board. A person has their first bird dog puppy and they come to this board and ask a basic question, and they are immediately told that they should be following a specific system. They need to buy a book and a tape and a book on tape. I'm sure these programs are fine and this isn't necessarily bad advice. I think there is a better piece of advice, however. Find a mentor. Find some one that has the kind of dogs that you want yours to be and ask them for help. Tell them that in exchange for a little guidance you will come out and help them work dogs. You will put birds in launchers, shovel a little poop, what ever is needed. I have been around experienced trainers on several occasions and I can generally learn more in an hour watching them work than I could if I read all of the books in my public library. I just feel that hands on experience with some one that knows what they are doing to help you is by far the best way to learn about training and working bird dogs. I'm sure that this just isn't an option for every one due to where they live or what ever reason, and the best option left for these folks is to buy a book or a tape or a book on tape.

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Re: Programs

Post by aulrich » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:14 pm

Very true, a good club is well worth the effort. It sure helped this rookie.

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Re: Programs

Post by Maurice » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:59 pm

rinker wrote:There is a pattern on this board. A person has their first bird dog puppy and they come to this board and ask a basic question, and they are immediately told that they should be following a specific system. They need to buy a book and a tape and a book on tape. I'm sure these programs are fine and this isn't necessarily bad advice. I think there is a better piece of advice, however. Find a mentor. Find some one that has the kind of dogs that you want yours to be and ask them for help. Tell them that in exchange for a little guidance you will come out and help them work dogs. You will put birds in launchers, shovel a little poop, what ever is needed. I have been around experienced trainers on several occasions and I can generally learn more in an hour watching them work than I could if I read all of the books in my public library. I just feel that hands on experience with some one that knows what they are doing to help you is by far the best way to learn about training and working bird dogs. I'm sure that this just isn't an option for every one due to where they live or what ever reason, and the best option left for these folks is to buy a book or a tape or a book on tape.
I promise you will not find a post where I am trying to sell a book, tape or seminar.. I will try and help anyone that ask for help if I can. I'm still learning myself. I do think a new trainer should stick with 1 program though. Hands on learning is the best way if you have good local amateurs or pro's around. 35 years and I am still a student of the dog

Mo

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Re: Programs

Post by rinker » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:47 pm

I did not mean to come across as anti program/book. I recently read the 'Grouse Dog Puppy' book by Ryan Frame and I learned a great deal from it. I know that the other programs and books are excellent also. I would recommend that a new comer or a veteran read every thing that they can, even about programs/methods that you do not use. There is always something to be learned.

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Re: Programs

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:11 pm

Every day is a learning day, but there isn't a book been written about my next dog .

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Re: Programs

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:46 pm

DonF wrote:Good post! By the time you've done a few dogs sticking strictly to the plan, you'll learn a lot about reading the dog and how to tweak the program to suit yourself. Important to learn one program and stick with it until you really understand it. I use Delmars plan. Lot of things I've changed over the years but the basics are still in there!
I have seen more confused dogs because of a handler/trainer that doesn't have a solid program and just jumps from one thing to another before the dog has a chance to really learn any one thing enough to become solid in any thing other then confusion

pick a method learn it then as don explained you can begin to learn how to read the dog then you can apply some other little things that may help the dog your are working on as some dogs and handlers do better with one method and the next dog may need something alittle different
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Re: Programs

Post by tailcrackin » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:28 am

Things with dogs, can be very simple, if you let them be. That could possibly go over a lot of heads.

The easiest way imo, to answer the statements made.......
If you don't understand the method, your working with, or using...........the dog wont either.
I think it would be hard to help, or teach ......"this or that" if you don't have an open mind, and learn things..........while you are assisting in the learning process.

Agree Mo, we have never ever pushed a method on anyone, on the boards. I have suggested your book, to a few, that had asked about a good training book to read. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:07 am

Well this post went real bad fast and it was put here to help new people under stand that it is important to pick one way of training and stick to it. I've been around birddogs for about 15 years and I'm still new to them. And until someone took the time to help me understand what I was doing I truly didn't know what I was doing I knew what I was looking at but that was it. I've trained with a few pros and armatures but none took the time to help with aspects of training. Now how about making the post a helpful one hands on is good if the person you are working with will explain what you did right and what you need improvements on. This was not to push any program or method and was not solicited by Maurice or Jonesy for them to books or seminars I'm sure they have enough people that e-mail everyday asking for help or asking for a training spot.

Respectfully
Stan Marchlewski

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Re: Programs

Post by Kmack » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:32 pm

The best way to start a training program for a total beginner is by housebreaking a pup from 8 weeks old. The goal is to reach the point that you can recognize when your dog needs to be let out and once outside, pup goes immediately about its' business then comes back in.

If you find that this is too much work and that you just get frustrated and mad, perhaps dog training is not for you.

If however, you note progress, slow as it might be, then you are well on your way toward learning to read a dog and also you are learning how to let the dog understand what it is you would like it to do.

Those two skills are absolutely necessary to be successful regardless of which program you use.

ALL of the trainers I know and respect the most are constantly working to improve their skill level in these two areas.

Now go pick a program and read/watch and learn how to use the tools specified by that program. Once you recognize these two skills as the key, you will realize that all of the programs are largely similar and it becomes a matter of personal preference.

Have a good day - all

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Re: Programs

Post by S&J gsp » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:45 am

Well it did it again now I wasn't real big on programs when I started it was a lot of hands on and mistakes. Now that I've done it a few times I'm going to admit it is much easier to follow a program than try with out if you have an open mind. If you have someone to mentor you even better but if you pick a program and follow it and watch the dog and learn the program your success rate will increase dramatically.

Thanks
Stan

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Re: Programs

Post by hi-tailyn » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:13 pm

Video. Best learning tool.

Watch and learn from one of the programs,

Then have someone Video YOU training and working your dog. When you see your self, it really brings it home what you are doing wrong and right. How your dog reacts to your body language. How you react and how you read what the dog is trying to tell you.

You can read and learn a program down to the little details, but until you are able to do and pass on that message to your dog, there is a gap between you and your dog.

Get a training friend and video each other and watch what you are doing. You will be your own best critic. Review the video by your self and with friend. You will remember what you were thinking the instant the dog does something right or wrong, and you will get ideas from what you have learned and know when to insert that knowledge into your program.

I have done this with a pro trainer, and we have years of video of dogs, and how they went through training, and you are able to see a pattern with some lines of dogs, or certain dogs themselves.

Video will help you learn and grow as a trainer and owner of our dogs.
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