When to go for Master tests

[mountaindogs]

After finishing a Senior title would you as a trainer prefer to move on to master quickly with minimal hunting (knowing that some slipping will occur when hunting and be "gotten away with" or would you hunt for a year or two for the things only experience can teach then tune up your dog back to the steadiness? Given that other people be they spouses, or other family will be handling and not holding the same steadiness expectations. I mean IDEALLY you would just keep all the same in hunting and training, but given that that will not be entirely the case which way would you go?

[Fun dog]

I think you could go either way, but I'm also pretty sure that the dogs know the difference between hunting and testing and the rules that go with each. At least my sleddogs knew the difference between training and racing even when we used the same trails. Testing is so controlled where there is nothing controlled about hunting.

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Depends on the dog. Was it performing at a Master level at the end of the Senior runs or not quite there. If already there, move up. If not, get the dog ready to perform at Master level then go for it. Provided you did some tune up before test weekend, you could probably do both.

I agree the dogs learn the difference between testing and hunting situations.

[EvanG]

After finishing a Senior title would you as a trainer prefer to move on to master quickly with minimal hunting (knowing that some slipping will occur when hunting and be "gotten away with" or would you hunt for a year or two for the things only experience can teach then tune up your dog back to the steadiness? Given that other people be they spouses, or other family will be handling and not holding the same steadiness expectations. I mean IDEALLY you would just keep all the same in hunting and training, but given that that will not be entirely the case which way would you go?

Usually it's more a matter of my read of the dog, rather than the fact he's finished Senior. How long as he been working successfully during training at the Master level and beyond? Is he reliable? Is he smoking the Master stuff on a regular basis? If not, keep training. If so, have at it.

I'm sure you've already seen the effects of tests...getting him worked up and degrading line manners, etc. Why risk that, and waste entry fees and travel $ when he isn't ready and reliable?

EvanG

[crackerd]

I'm sure you've already seen the effects of tests...getting him worked up and degrading line manners, etc. Why risk that, and waste entry fees and travel $ when he isn't ready and reliable?

Got a hunch, Evan, this ain't about training for retriever tests, but I'd sure like to know about degrading line manners in a pointing dog test.

MG

[EvanG]

I'm sure you've already seen the effects of tests...getting him worked up and degrading line manners, etc. Why risk that, and waste entry fees and travel $ when he isn't ready and reliable?

Got a hunch, Evan, this ain't about training for retriever tests, but I'd sure like to know about degrading line manners in a pointing dog test.

MG

Really the same mechanism. What would degrade is fundamentals, and in a pointer it would be staunchness on point. Other aspects of obedience also tend to degrade when testing outweighs training. I view all training as obedience. Exposure is one thing, and should augment training. But trained skills & tasks are obedience issues. That is all I'm referencing.

Moving ahead too far too fast is rarely a formula for success.

EvanG

[gundogguy]

Moving ahead too far too fast is rarely a formula for success.

EvanG[/quote]

Evan taught me this, and I use it every day I train and read dogs.
"is the dog overwhelmed or underwhelmed by the work" adjust accordingly
Can the dog challenge the test or does the test challenge the dog!

[mountaindogs]

I have some understanding of the retriever games and can infer the meanings. It is essentially the same since his issues are at or after the shot. "Line manners" applies fairly well, except I am flushing the birds so my distance from the dog could degrade his honesty a bit.
In this specific case, the dog is about 95% Master level work on all but one area**(see below) in training. He degrades when testing and hunting wanting to break at fall. (when he sees the feather poof and only when the bird is real and actually shot) He otherwise held it together fairly well at the tests. His other owner and I have been working together on this and he is doing well, but I expect the standards will fall to breaking at shot when there is not a second set of hands/eyes to keep the dog honest. He cannot be stopped with e-collar on this break at this point. The pressure level required is TOO high. I had to go back to stepping on a drag line, with ecollar also. (keeping in mind when training this seems to not be a big issue - even when the bird is shot) The dog is very smart and could fairly easily learn to be honest for the right people in the right situations. Not really any creeping issues or breaking in. Needs practice with another dog.

My gut is he needs more experience, but I worry his experience will be the wrong kind. He can be somewhat situationally adaptable but not really the maleable kind of dog that holds style well with different standards. He works best on lots of pratice and confidence.

**He has one area (Honoring through the other dog's retrieve) that we need more training work. He will honor a short water retrieve but I have not applied it to the upland work. His hunting with his other owner will not affect this as he will hunt alone.

THANKS all for the thoughts.

[cjhills]

Better whoa and steady to fall work.. We don't do junior and senior on the dogs we plan to master. Dogs learn they can do things in a test situation that are not allowed in training very quickly. This is with pointing dogs not retrievers........................Cj

[BellaSpinone]

Of course it will vary with judges.. In MH you should not expect to be able to whoa your dog. If the dog breaks before being sent, "thank you handler for your $35 & collar your dog". This can be a real problem if several birds are missed or safety blanks or your dog has multiple honors. On the honor typically you will be 4 ft behind your dog and 4 ft off to the side. So you are not in a position to help them. And your dog should retrieve to hand with one command without taking a step.

I finished 3 MH this spring. Based on what you described, the dog is not ready. If it were my dog and my goal was MH I would not hunt a green MH test dog. I reserve hunting for the dogs that have earned MH titles, spayed bitches or retired dogs. It is a tough call if you only have one dog. The obedience needed for MH is much more than in a hunting dog. Makes for a pleasant hunt, though...

Good luck. Send me a pm and I will share my mistakes, maybe save you an entry fee along the way. They say you learn from your mistakes, mine cost $35 plus travel..

Like the time my judge said one minute, and instead of staying in "Dodge" I headed towards the other handler and ended up up in an ugly situation resulting in "thank you handler" never a good thing to hear with time remaining..

[cjhills]

Of course it will vary with judges.. In MH you should not expect to be able to whoa your dog. If the dog breaks before being sent, "thank you handler for your $35 & collar your dog". This can be a real problem if several birds are missed or safety blanks or your dog has multiple honors. On the honor typically you will be 4 ft behind your dog and 4 ft off to the side. So you are not in a position to help them. And your dog should retrieve to hand with one command without taking a step.

I finished 3 MH this spring. Based on what you described, the dog is not ready. If it were my dog and my goal was MH I would not hunt a green MH test dog. I reserve hunting for the dogs that have earned MH titles, spayed bitches or retired dogs. It is a tough call if you only have one dog. The obedience needed for MH is much more than in a hunting dog. Makes for a pleasant hunt, though...

Good luck. Send me a pm and I will share my mistakes, maybe save you an entry fee along the way. They say you learn from your mistakes, mine cost $35 plus travel..

Like the time my judge said one minute, and instead of staying in "Dodge" I headed towards the other handler and ended up up in an ugly situation resulting in "thank you handler" never a good thing to hear with time remaining..

Pointing dog Hunt test rules " quietly cautioning your dog on point is acceptable". We hunt all of our hunt test dogs from 6 months old on they quickly learn the difference. Almost all our DQs come from the dog not being steady. a absolute whoa will go a long ways toward passing master tests. A honest dog is a plus. If he moves at a little distance from you he is cheating...........................Cj