Puppy Wont Point

WISCO_GSP · Post by **WISCO_GSP** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:24 am

I have been introducing my 3 month old to wings and birds for about a month now. I have been hiding birds wings in bushes that we walk around as well as use a fishing pole and attaching the wing to it to simulate a mobile bird. When she finds the wings or sees them on the pole she doesn't point she just busts into the bush or chases the wing on the pole and hasn't realized yet that the wing will "fly" away if she doesn't point. I know she is still a puppy so I not worried by any means I am more happy that she recognizes the smell and starts to hunt it when we are walking. I do want to make sure that she doesn't develop bad chasing habits if I can. Has anyone had this problem and had ways to correct it? More "Woah" training perhaps? From what I have read is that pointing is a natural response for a GSP.
Thanks

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:32 am

WISCO_GSP wrote:I have been introducing my 3 month old

She is a pup and if she points thats a bonus...let her be a pup and dont worry about pointing...worry about, people exposure, going on walks, kenneling, riding in vehicles, potty training, "here", "no", "leave it", "where did that shoe go?"

WISCO_GSP wrote:she recognizes the smell and starts to hunt it when we are walking

Her nose works, that is all you need for now...pointing will come when they realize they cant catch the bird

WISCO_GSP wrote:doesn't develop bad chasing habits

IMO let her chase some pigeons she cant catch - that may help encourage stopping and pointing.

WISCO_GSP wrote:More "Woah" training perhaps

No, see my first comment above. Sure you can overlap the word whoa with the other commands but I would not be too worried about reinforcing it.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:44 am

At this point you should be walking her out in the fields and just letting her run and get confidence to go out and seek whatever... the pointing will come when it comes, and having her sight point stuff on the end of a pole is not going to help and will probably hinder her progression

WISCO_GSP · Post by **WISCO_GSP** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:53 am

Thank you for your comments. She is great and I let her run free and explore in fields and ponds near my house 4-7 times a week. I have been taking it very slow with all bird/field training and putting majority of the emphasis on obidience/ house training and letting everything progress naturally as puppies should. I more of less just like reaffirm what I have read and see in my training videos from people that may have gone through it as well because every dog trains and develops differently.
Thank you for your help!

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:05 am

She is right on track. And like kids...they ALL develop differently. If she is bred right (where did you get her?), you will have NO problems, a lot of fun and the "joy" of training

Keep telling yourself that most trainers don't even want to see pups until they are older than 6 months, and that is just for a lot of the basic puppy things. I have a 4 month old setter right now that all I can do is keep him from eating his own poop. You think you have problems...

Have fun with her and you will really have a fun fall next year!

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:19 am

If I were you I would stop the "wing on a string". If it serves a purpose other than an amusement for the puppy owner, it is past the stage of being helpful. Your pup needs to chase birds that she can't catch, like homing pigeons or good flying quail. Like the other posters, I think you just need to let her run, chase tweety birds, butterflies, etc. and build her prey drive and make her bird crazy. Get a good training system book / video and read it and stick with it. Perfect Start, Training with Moe, Huntsmith puppy development are just a few good ones that forum members use and can help you with questions.

Have fun

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:47 am

I agree with stopping the wing on a string. You also need to stop hiding the wing for her to find.

WISCO_GSP · Post by **WISCO_GSP** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:00 pm

rinker wrote:I agree with stopping the wing on a string. You also need to stop hiding the wing for her to find.

Just because it wont fly when she closes in on it?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:34 pm

Another thing is do you want to teach your pup to point dead bird parts or live birds
Toss the wings in the garbage as also the wing on a string not done properly and worse over done will only promote sight pointing..Bird dogs need to learn how to use their noses on live birds and it only needs to be done a couple times a months right now as a baby puppy. Make the outings fun.leave them wanting more.quit them before they quit you

Good Luck

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:05 pm

bobman wrote:At this point you should be walking her out in the fields and just letting her run and get confidence to go out and seek whatever... the pointing will come when it comes, and having her sight point stuff on the end of a pole is not going to help and will probably hinder her progression

+1... hard flying pigeons, or wild birds if you are lucky enough to have them, needed soon

What training programme are you planning to use?

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:08 pm

Wing on a string is a great way to ruin a dog. Get the pup out off leash as much as you can, exposure, exposure, exposure. Wing will get him sight pointing and that is not what you want.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:20 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:If I were you I would stop the "wing on a string". If it serves a purpose other than an amusement for the puppy owner, it is past the stage of being helpful

At the risk of being ostrascized, censured, and outright shouted down, I respectfully disagree. The proper equipment used effectively can bring a very young puppy along very quickly. My experience is that 12 weeks old is the perfect time for wing training but let's deal with some of the arguments one at time.
1.

kninebirddog wrote:over done will only promote sight pointing

What's your point? A dog should never sight point? So when we loose wind advantage in the field and your dog spots a big old rooster hunkered in a windbreak he should just ignore it? Give me sight pointing in a pup and I can turn it in to scent pointing in one or two training sessions. Maybe the dog becomes a creeper? Only if you don't teach and enforce "whoa".
2.

bobman wrote:and having her sight point stuff on the end of a pole is not going to help and will probably hinder her progression

How so? My experience is that a wing on a flyrod used properly can be a reward for desired behavior similar to clicker training. It is a tool used by the trainer that, when used effectively, can increase training efficacy. In other words, I can teach a 4 month old pup what "whoa" (there are several other commands as well) means without a checkcord or even touching the dog. And, yes, the training when done consistently sticks.
3.

NLsetter wrote:wing on a string is a great way to ruin a dog

So is an ecollar in the hands of an inexperienced or ignorant trainer. Again, tools are tools. Trainers do the training.
4.

bobman wrote:At this point you should be walking her out in the fields and just letting her run and get confidence to go out and seek whatever... the pointing will come when it comes,

I agree that frequent walks at this age are a great thing if you can keep your mouth shut. But implying that formal training sessions for a 3 month old dog aren't worth the effort is just plaing wrong. At 12 weeks of age you will never have an easier time of it. Just remember to keep your sessions short. My rule of thumb is one minute of work for each month of age. So, your pup, if I were training would get a 3 minute session twice a day with at least an hour between sessions, 4 months would get 4 minutes repeating the pattern up to 10 minutes. The sessions need to be thoughtful and use as little pressure as possible. That's where the wing exels. Its a game that when played properly teaches. I also believe that dog's will try techniques that produced desired results in one situation in other situations. In other words, if pointing a wing gets the dog what it wants it is more likely to point a sitting bird in to get what it wants.

So, what do I think you should do? Read some material on how dogs learn. Understand what it means when you say "I am going to train my own dog". If you are going to stick with wing training (I am not saying it is the only way to go) read Gundog by Richard Wolters as he is the first and perhaps only source on the subject. Find some one who is experienced to help you if you can.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:38 pm

What are you teaching with wing on a string?

I start mine scent pointing live birds very early.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:30 pm

ACooper wrote:What are you teaching with wing on a string?

What I do with the wing is mostly a "play reward" for doing what I am asking the dog to do. For instance, I stop the chase game and give a recall command. The game does not start again until the pup lets me touch it. I work up to solid recall and not leaving until sent over time by timing the resumption of the game. But, there are three specific commands tailor made for wing training, "turn" which is a field control command I use, "kennel" especially in the outdoor run, and "whoa". Whoa and turn are particularly easy and I can turn or stop a 12 week old puppy on a dime with no check/collar/yelling or force of any kind and I can do it on the first try every single time. Repetition and then transferring the command to the field via a lead/checkcord and then ecollar finish up the job nicely. By 6 months pups I train can understand whoa completely without it dampening their style in the least.

I think most people's lack of success with wing training stems from one very basic mistake, they use too short a rod and to long a line. It makes it too hard for the trainer to manipulate the wing in a way that pup can't catch it. A good setup takes at least a 9' rod or crappie stick and no more that 18 inches of line. I took a challenge on this site a year or two ago. I said I could make any dog point. The proof is on youtube and the video is "Turk the improbable pointer". Good (but not great) technique is demonstrated on the clip. By the way, I actually bird hunt with the dog in the clip now, and yes, he does scent point. His retrieving sucks though.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:17 pm

Whoadog point is that a pup that is continually set up for sight pointing eventually will not be happy with just pointing on scent. Sure I believe a dog should sight point but it better stop on scent and not keep roading in till the SEE the bird because that is what the dog had been trained to do as a pup.
And PS I have seen this result on well more then one occasion on a person that thought wing on a string was a fun game with their pups,
There are far better ways to teach a dog to stand/point live birds/walking birds other then playing with dead bird parts

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:33 pm

WISCO_GSP wrote:1. I have been introducing my 3 month old to wings and birds for about a month now.

2. I have been hiding birds wings in bushes that we walk around as well as use a fishing pole and attaching the wing to it to simulate a mobile bird. When she finds the wings or sees them on the pole she doesn't point she just busts into the bush or chases the wing on the pole and hasn't realized yet that the wing will "fly" away if she doesn't point.
Thanks

1. Do you really want a dog that "points dead" (wings) ? Wings certainly don't smell like live birds.
You also say "wings and birds" -------- what kind of birds?

2. Wing on a string is almost totally BS. get that dog on some real birds that it can't catch and that will fly away.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:12 pm

It's just like every other thing on this forum if it's not your way its wrong. It's not my personal choice but have seen many good dogs started on a fishing pole in the back yard with no lasting effects.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:19 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Whoadog point is that a pup that is continually set up for sight pointing eventually will not be happy with just pointing on scent.

Is this your experience talking or someone else's? My experience is that some dogs will "keep roading", I call it creeping, and some will not. A good solid foundation with "whoa" solves that problem. For me, the advantages of wing-training far out-weigh any problems it may or may not create.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:21 pm

Del Lolo wrote:Wing on a string is almost totally BS. get that dog on some real birds that it can't catch and that will fly away.

No, it's not. I have more than a few references if you would like to call them.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:24 pm

If I have to "teach" or verbally command (whoa) a pointing dog to point...I want a different dog.
I would be really shocked if your GSP did not point fairly rapidly with a minimal amount of live bird contact. Any simulation of wild birds poses a risk. A risk that dogs will not respect birds. I see it in throw down dogs at every trial or any trip to a released bird club, they get closer and closer and far too often to the point that they can see the bird. In my opinion it is a disappointing look in a pointing dog, consistently standing and looking down at their quarry.If its possible, you are better served finding a place to keep pigeons and some form of launcher/releaser set up, and get the help of either a professional or use a process found in resources like, "Training With Mo."

In addition, try and remember that there is less risk in going slow and being cautious and consistent, than there is with mature expectations applied too quickly in a young dog. There is a world of difference in 4 months and 14 months, about 10% of a dog's life. Teach the dog to go with you and come to you, while enjoying and generalizing to all the things in the field...the manners around birds can wait 6-8 months, even a year from where you are now.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:40 pm

Wisco,

Just for comparison, my 4, almost 5 month old Pointer is pointing birds. We've had him on pigeons 4 times so far. We've worked him at Perfection Kennel (Perfect Start) on gun intro program and while doing that, had chances to put him on good flying pigeons that he couldn't catch. He didn't point the first or second day - the third day he was pointing the birds well. I've never used a wing on a string because I don't want him sight pointing - I want him using his nose all the time.

He knows "here" and to turn direction on his name - he also knows the gun means a dead bird, and we can shoot over him if we choose to now. Our plan is to hunt him as much as we can in the next two months on wild birds. If we can't get into many, then we'll use launchers and pigeons to keep him from busting in on birds. Whoa will not be introduced until next year, after he's had a season of learning where wild birds hang out and how much pressure he can put on them before making them fly. We will not be putting any additional pressure on him this year - as long as he comes when I call, I don't care if he takes out every covey we get into - I'll work him on whoa next year after he has "fire in his belly" for wild birds.

Good luck with your pup and let the pup be a pup this first year - low pressure on everything.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:58 pm

Chukar12 wrote:If I have to "teach" or verbally command (whoa) a pointing dog to point...

Me too, but I have no problem at all with teaching "whoa" to produce a broke dog. In fact, if you can do it without I'd pay big money to learn it from you.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:22 pm

whoadog wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:If I have to "teach" or verbally command (whoa) a pointing dog to point...
Me too, but I have no problem at all with teaching "whoa" to produce a broke dog. In fact, if you can do it without I'd pay big money to learn it from you.

Well I fear we may be caught up in what whoa means but if you mean the word or any verbal command for whoa you wouldn't need me to show it...Mo, Jonesy, Higgins et al never utter the word. They are better than I and published already.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:34 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Well I fear we may be caught up in what whoa means but if you mean the word or any verbal command for whoa you wouldn't need me to show it...Mo, Jonesy, Higgins et al never utter the word. They are better than I and published already.

I am speaking more about the concept than the actual command. A dog can be encouraged in any number of ways to stand through flush and shot just as it can be encouraged to honor another dog's point. To clarify what I meant, I do not have a problem using a verbal command to help a dog understand that I don't want them to move while the bird is flushing, being shot or falling. I also would venture to say that the concept of "whoa" must be taught to the vast majority of pointing dogs as it is not the natural reaction to a flushing bird.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:59 am

Quailcommando wrote:It's just like every other thing on this forum if it's not your way its wrong. It's not my personal choice but have seen many good dogs started on a fishing pole in the back yard with no lasting effects.

The wing on a string is nothing but entertainment for people it serves no real purpose so why waist time with it ?

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:45 am

Quailcommando wrote:It's just like every other thing on this forum if it's not your way its wrong. It's not my personal choice but have seen many good dogs started on a fishing pole in the back yard with no lasting effects.

As have I. I have also seen lots of dogs taught sit with no ill effects. But.... I have also seen ones that sit was a problem for and ones that wing training was a problem for. Until there is some clear evidence of a positive effect of wing training the risk (a possibility of extra training and less reliability from the dog) is not worth the reward (nothing gained).

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:26 am

whoadog wrote: Me too, but I have no problem at all with teaching "whoa" to produce a broke dog. In fact, if you can do it without I'd pay big money to learn it from you.

Would you like to borrow my "training with mo" book?

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:33 am

whatsnext wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:It's just like every other thing on this forum if it's not your way its wrong. It's not my personal choice but have seen many good dogs started on a fishing pole in the back yard with no lasting effects.
The wing on a string is nothing but entertainment for people it serves no real purpose so why waist time with it ?

That's the point it's not your time being wasted. I don't know why people use a barrel for training makes no sence at all to me but if that's what your comfortable with go for it every thing is about timing and transition if you do it to long it could cause problems same as miss use of a e-collar or a gun.

WISCO_GSP · Post by **WISCO_GSP** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:55 am

Thank you all for your help it is very nice to see it from multiple perspectives. From my view the wings worked well the first couple weeks when I had her home because she became ever more excited to be running/working around fields and ponds. From her through it is time to work her on live birds either being natural or planted by me. I recently read the book "The Ultimate Guide to Bird Dog Training" where they showed an exercise where a pigeon was tied to a 40' string attached to a pole so it could fly away but only within the 40'ft radius. Have any of you tried that? I was thinking about setting up multiple poles in a field to break her from the first one she comes up on.

She has a very good point she uses it when she is playing with my girl friend and I she will slow creep up on us and then point. So I know she has it just has to get her to translate it to birds she smells.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:10 am

Seems some of the bigger name trainers use it like I said before I don't use it but don't mean it's wrong.

http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... _tips.html

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:17 am

My opinion of the wing on a string is that it hurt's nothing and it teach's nothing. I wouldn't even care if the pup caught it a few times. If the wing on the string bother's you, tie on a piece of cloth instead or even a small piece of wood, you'll get the same result's. And I don't worry about sight pointing, that get's taken care of later on, no problem. Sight pointing is created by bad training habits and very poor timing. I do use whoa in the breaking process but never to stop a dog on the bird, only after the bird is flushed and the dog moves.

lot's of different things will work but, they must be timed right to teach the dog something, not to allow it to do as it please's.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:58 pm

bonasa wrote:Would you like to borrow my "training with mo" book?

LOL, clever!

DonF wrote:Sight pointing is created by bad training habits and very poor timing. I do use whoa in the breaking process but never to stop a dog on the bird, only after the bird is flushed and the dog moves. lot's of different things will work but, they must be timed right to teach the dog something, not to allow it to do as it please's.

Thank you! Not outright support but I don't feel quite so alone.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:00 pm

Would you like to borrow my "training with mo" book?

That was good one Bonasa!! Loved it!!

You have to have an open mind, and thoughts, with the book, and the dog work. Thanks Jonesy

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:21 am

whatsnext wrote:The wing on a string is nothing but entertainment for people it serves no real purpose

It is also great entertainment for the dog which can be used just as effectively as food rewards. If you can't achieve results using the method it may be that you have never seen it done effectively. How do dogs learn commands? My understanding is by associating an action with the word you uttered. I said earlier I can get a dog to change direction or stop on a dime with the wing on the first try, every single time without touching the dog. What I did not say is that I can get them to stand where I want and then release when I want with the wing. I simply add the voice command to the action and repeat over and over and over. In a 3 minute session I can practice 3 commands with 10-15 repetitions each (whoa, release, and turn). If I do that twice a day for two weeks I have accomplished a minimum of 840 repetitions! It's physcally not to mention economically impossible to do that many reps in the field using live birds.

slistoe wrote:Until there is some clear evidence of a positive effect of wing training the risk (a possibility of extra training and less reliability from the dog) is not worth the reward (nothing gained).

What kind of evidence do you want? Do you want a video clip? References from clients, to come hunt with me? Apparently my 40 years or so of messing around with hunting dogs of all kinds means little without, what, a national championship or something? How about this: I'll take on any trainer of your choosing. You pick a well-bred litter of either shoot-to-retrieve or hunt-test pointing dogs. The other trainer and I each pick a pup. You set the standard to which the dog is to be trained excluding ground coverage (I'm not losing just because I prefer my dogs to hunt closer than some one else's). We agree on the judge. First one to get the dog to the standard wins. If your guy beats me to it, I'll pay for both dogs plus the cost of the other guy's training. If I win, you take both dogs, tell everybody you meet in the bird field how they were trained, and then you refer them to me. I am that confident in what I do. Are you?

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:04 am

There are better ways to entertain a pups mind than flipping a wing on a string around because someone is too lazy to put more effort into a pup. I could care less about getting a pointing dog to stand where i want, mine will stand where the birds are and that's all i care about. And 84000 repetitions of a wing on a string does nothing compared to a few good encounters with wild birds in wild settings.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:09 am

whatsnext wrote:There are better ways to entertain a pups mind than flipping a wing on a string around because someone is too lazy to put more effort into a pup. I could care less about getting a pointing dog to stand where i want, mine will stand where the birds are and that's all i care about. And 84000 repetitions of a wing on a string does nothing compared to a few good encounters with wild birds in wild settings.

If that's all you care about why call someone lazy because they do something you don't agree with!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:50 am

The point is that some drills are no more difficult,effective or ineffective...you chooses which based on what you want to achieve... than most basic dog obedience exercises. With due respect it does not take much talent to make a dog retrieve and stand birds. Lots of ways to do it. Very similar to sit, stay, fetch the paper. The skill set is in less controlled factors like distances where greater ground coverage is needed and desired, or by the importace placed on how much natural independence and desire is left in a dog after the training as is evidenced in judging how the dog goes about his work. I believe if the original poster keeps up the effort and knowledge seeking they will not have a difficult time making a fine hunting buddy.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:08 am

Quailcommando wrote:
whatsnext wrote:There are better ways to entertain a pups mind than flipping a wing on a string around because someone is too lazy to put more effort into a pup. I could care less about getting a pointing dog to stand where i want, mine will stand where the birds are and that's all i care about. And 84000 repetitions of a wing on a string does nothing compared to a few good encounters with wild birds in wild settings.
If that's all you care about why call someone lazy because they do something you don't agree with!

If someone would rather flip a wing on a string than run a young pup in a field to me that is lazy . And why would anyone care about a pointing dog standing in a field in random places that the handler chooses ?

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:23 am

whatsnext wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:
whatsnext wrote:There are better ways to entertain a pups mind than flipping a wing on a string around because someone is too lazy to put more effort into a pup. I could care less about getting a pointing dog to stand where i want, mine will stand where the birds are and that's all i care about. And 84000 repetitions of a wing on a string does nothing compared to a few good encounters with wild birds in wild settings.
If that's all you care about why call someone lazy because they do something you don't agree with!

If someone would rather flip a wing on a string than run a young pup in a field to me that is lazy .

The OP said nothing too the affect of they rather use a wing then be in in the field that's what you assumed.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:44 am

I do believe you have multiple NAVHDA chapters in your area. Testing is not required to join, membership is pretty inexpensive, some chapters have equipment like launchers or even videos that can be loaned out, members will have resources for pigeons and gamebirds, some members will have land to train on, some members will get together throughout the week to train, and best of all--people with experience can give you hands on help. They're going to see things in your pup and training, that you may not, as a new trainer...and hopefully be able to guide you efficiently towards results. I'd still recommend videos like Perfect Start/Perfect Finish so you are familiar with the process, but IMO nothing beats hands on help from a mentor.

http://www.navhda.us/chapterinfo.aspx

Edit: I am not advocating serious training with this pup at 3 months old. If she were mine, I'd be working on recalls, play fetch, and crating. My priority in regards to being a birddog, would be walks in the field. Nature provides lots of learning experiences, whether it be butterflies and "bleep" birds, learning how to navigate cover, learning old scent from new scent etc. But since you are thinking about future methods of training, I do believe NAVHDA would be an excellent resource for you.

WISCO_GSP · Post by **WISCO_GSP** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:10 am

wems2371 wrote:I do believe you have multiple NAVHDA chapters in your area. Testing is not required to join, membership is pretty inexpensive, some chapters have equipment like launchers or even videos that can be loaned out, members will have resources for pigeons and gamebirds, some members will have land to train on, some members will get together throughout the week to train, and best of all--people with experience can give you hands on help. They're going to see things in your pup and training, that you may not, as a new trainer...and hopefully be able to guide you efficiently towards results. I'd still recommend videos like Perfect Start/Perfect Finish so you are familiar with the process, but IMO nothing beats hands on help from a mentor.

http://www.navhda.us/chapterinfo.aspx

Edit: I am not advocating serious training with this pup at 3 months old. If she were mine, I'd be working on recalls, play fetch, and crating. My priority in regards to being a birddog, would be walks in the field. Nature provides lots of learning experiences, whether it be butterflies and "bleep" birds, learning how to navigate cover, learning old scent from new scent etc. But since you are thinking about future methods of training, I do believe NAVHDA would be an excellent resource for you.

Thank you Wems 2371. That is helpful. I reached out the local chapter to learn more about a membership.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:21 pm

wems2371 wrote: I do believe you have multiple NAVHDA chapters in your area.... but IMO nothing beats hands on help from a mentor.

This is excellent advice and congruent to what try to say with new dog trainers. Learn how your dog learns, understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. If you can reach that point,if you can connect the dots, following just about any proven program will produce great results.

wems2371 wrote:I am not advocating serious training with this pup at 3 months old.

Here's a major difference in philosophy. I believe effective training starts before a puppy is even concieved by the thoughtful selection of a breeding pair, especially the female. I believe puppies begin to learn, at the least, from the moment they are whelped if not during gestation. I believe that our dogs/puppies are constantly learning from every interaction they have with us from the very first one to the very last one. I believe all training is "serious" training. I would venture that many of us, maybe even a majority of us, start teaching recall and housebreaking the day we bring the pup home. I find that these two basic concepts require more pressure than the basic field commands I teach with 3 month old pups. Why would I not teach turn and whoa if I believe this and I have a way to teach that relies on the pup's natural movement and reactions to achieve the desired result. I simply need to manipulate those movements and reactions and overlay the command. There is no collar, no checkcord, no touching the dog at all, no pressure necessary at all, so little if any damage is done to the dog's basic physche. And, the sheer volume of the repetitions compared the short amount of time involved keeps the pup fresh and loving the training as well as producing consistent results sooner when we move to actual bird work.

whatsnext wrote:If someone would rather flip a wing on a string than run a young pup in a field to me that is lazy . And why would anyone care about a pointing dog standing in a field in random places that the handler chooses ?

Wow, really? Did you really just say that the concept of "whoa" if not the outright command has no place in pointing dog training? Really? The lazy part is ok with me. If lazy is being able to accomplish in 3 minutes in my yard what takes you 3 hours to set up in a field, then color me lazy. Pops would have called it efficient. Your implication that I replace birds with the wing though is mistaken. I have two launchers, two pigeon traps with one in place all the time and a net to catch birds at night when I need them. I read somewhere once that it takes on average about 100 bird contacts to make a bird dog. I think I can pull that number down to about 30. I use wing on a string for the initial phase of yard work with very young (as early as 7 weeks old) pups. I finish the dog with bird work in the field. However, by the time I get them to the field I have shaped their behavior in the yard in such a way that the leap to birds is more like a hop and not difficult at all. By the way, I actually live in the corner of a 10 acre hay meadow with about a square mile of property adjacent to mine with several coveys of wild birds on it that I can use any time I want and I still wing train in my yard. I can post a picture from my back deck if you need proof of that. I've read so many times on this site about following a sequential, progressive training program. This is not a new idea. That's exactly what my technique is, although I never had the marketing savvy to call it that, with wing work being the first step.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:23 pm

By the way Wisco, sorry for hijacking your thread. I guess I'm getting crankier as I approach my "senior" status and am less willing to stand shamefully in the shadows in more. Good luck with your dog no matter how you choose to train. There is nothing better in the world than to get invites to excellent bird fields because somebody with contacts trusts you and your dogs. Very gratifying indeed it is.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:47 pm

whoadog wrote:
wems2371 wrote: I do believe you have multiple NAVHDA chapters in your area.... but IMO nothing beats hands on help from a mentor.
This is excellent advice and congruent to what try to say with new dog trainers. Learn how your dog learns, understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. If you can reach that point,if you can connect the dots, following just about any proven program will produce great results.

wems2371 wrote:I am not advocating serious training with this pup at 3 months old.
Here's a major difference in philosophy. I believe effective training starts before a puppy is even concieved by the thoughtful selection of a breeding pair, especially the female. I believe puppies begin to learn, at the least, from the moment they are whelped if not during gestation. I believe that our dogs/puppies are constantly learning from every interaction they have with us from the very first one to the very last one. I believe all training is "serious" training. I would venture that many of us, maybe even a majority of us, start teaching recall and housebreaking the day we bring the pup home. I find that these two basic concepts require more pressure than the basic field commands I teach with 3 month old pups. Why would I not teach turn and whoa if I believe this and I have a way to teach that relies on the pup's natural movement and reactions to achieve the desired result. I simply need to manipulate those movements and reactions and overlay the command. There is no collar, no checkcord, no touching the dog at all, no pressure necessary at all, so little if any damage is done to the dog's basic physche. And, the sheer volume of the repetitions compared the short amount of time involved keeps the pup fresh and loving the training as well as producing consistent results sooner when we move to actual bird work.

whatsnext wrote:If someone would rather flip a wing on a string than run a young pup in a field to me that is lazy . And why would anyone care about a pointing dog standing in a field in random places that the handler chooses ?
Wow, really? Did you really just say that the concept of "whoa" if not the outright command has no place in pointing dog training? Really? The lazy part is ok with me. If lazy is being able to accomplish in 3 minutes in my yard what takes you 3 hours to set up in a field, then color me lazy. Pops would have called it efficient. Your implication that I replace birds with the wing though is mistaken. I have two launchers, two pigeon traps with one in place all the time and a net to catch birds at night when I need them. I read somewhere once that it takes on average about 100 bird contacts to make a bird dog. I think I can pull that number down to about 30. I use wing on a string for the initial phase of yard work with very young (as early as 7 weeks old) pups. I finish the dog with bird work in the field. However, by the time I get them to the field I have shaped their behavior in the yard in such a way that the leap to birds is more like a hop and not difficult at all. By the way, I actually live in the corner of a 10 acre hay meadow with about a square mile of property adjacent to mine with several coveys of wild birds on it that I can use any time I want and I still wing train in my yard. I can post a picture from my back deck if you need proof of that. I've read so many times on this site about following a sequential, progressive training program. This is not a new idea. That's exactly what my technique is, although I never had the marketing savvy to call it that, with wing work being the first step.

I never mentioned the word whoa now did i, and you do not need to teach the whoa command there are other ways that are also proven. There is NO substitute for wild birds and when i say NO i mean none,zilch, and if you believe that a wing on a string does anything to help a dog transition to birds wild, pen raised or pigeons you are being foolish.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:12 pm

DonF wrote:My opinion of the wing on a string is that it hurt's nothing and it teach's nothing. I wouldn't even care if the pup caught it a few times. If the wing on the string bother's you, tie on a piece of cloth instead or even a small piece of wood, you'll get the same result's. And I don't worry about sight pointing, that get's taken care of later on, no problem. Sight pointing is created by bad training habits and very poor timing. I do use whoa in the breaking process but never to stop a dog on the bird, only after the bird is flushed and the dog moves.

lot's of different things will work but, they must be timed right to teach the dog something, not to allow it to do as it please's.

Exactly. Well said.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:29 pm

whoadog wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:Whoadog point is that a pup that is continually set up for sight pointing eventually will not be happy with just pointing on scent.
Is this your experience talking or someone else's? My experience is that some dogs will "keep roading", I call it creeping, and some will not. A good solid foundation with "whoa" solves that problem. For me, the advantages of wing-training far out-weigh any problems it may or may not create.

My experience well golly gees I have been around a dog or two in my days. :roll:

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:14 pm

whatsnext wrote:I never mentioned the word whoa now did i

No, what you said was:

whatsnext wrote: And why would anyone care about a pointing dog standing in a field in random places that the handler chooses ?

We may be mincing words here, but, my concept of whoa is the dog is provided with a stimuli and from that stimuli he understands that he should stop moving his feet and stand where he has planted himself until he is given a release command.
But, just for the sake of answering your argument, how about a dog coming to a point from upwind and that is just out of his sight? I hit my whistle, he stops on a dime, I walk in and shoot the bird from in front of the other dog and everybody happy, happy, happy. Once again, I also never said this was a replacement for wild birds. Never said it!
What I said was, and I will stand behind it 'til the day I die, that wing training properly done is a training tool that can be used to shape behavior in very young puppies. The foundation built during that puppy training can be used quite nicely to enhance training efficacy when the move to live birds is made.

Now you have called me both lazy and foolish. I'll refrain from name calling but I can't help but wonder, whatsnext?

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:03 am

whoadog wrote:
whatsnext wrote:I never mentioned the word whoa now did i
No, what you said was:
whatsnext wrote: And why would anyone care about a pointing dog standing in a field in random places that the handler chooses ?
We may be mincing words here, but, my concept of whoa is the dog is provided with a stimuli and from that stimuli he understands that he should stop moving his feet and stand where he has planted himself until he is given a release command.
But, just for the sake of answering your argument, how about a dog coming to a point from upwind and that is just out of his sight? I hit my whistle, he stops on a dime, I walk in and shoot the bird from in front of the other dog and everybody happy, happy, happy. Once again, I also never said this was a replacement for wild birds. Never said it!
What I said was, and I will stand behind it 'til the day I die, that wing training properly done is a training tool that can be used to shape behavior in very young puppies. The foundation built during that puppy training can be used quite nicely to enhance training efficacy when the move to live birds is made.

Now you have called me both lazy and foolish. I'll refrain from name calling but I can't help but wonder, whatsnext?

I believe i said if "someone is too lazy" not specifically you and i said you are BEING foolish if you believe that a wing on a string does anything to help with transitioning to birds but you can comprehend what i typed however you wish .For your hypothetical situation i would handle it differently, i would let the dog not standing the bird continue working and see what happens next. 1. Does the working dog establish point with out bumping the bird? 2. Does the working dog bump the bird and stop to flush while the standing dog stays standing? 3. Does the standing dog break when the working dog runs in on his point? etc.. etc ..etc..

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:49 pm

whatsnext wrote:For your hypothetical situation i would handle it differently, i would let the dog not standing the bird continue working and see what happens next. 1. Does the working dog establish point with out bumping the bird? 2. Does the working dog bump the bird and stop to flush while the standing dog stays standing? 3. Does the standing dog break when the working dog runs in on his point? etc.. etc ..etc..

That's a very thoughtful reply which can actually lead to a better discussion. My next question would be, what is you definition of "whoa" and how do you apply it, if at all, in training your pointing dogs?

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:57 pm

whoadog wrote: That's a very thoughtful reply which can actually lead to a better discussion. My next question would be, what is you definition of "whoa" and how do you apply it, if at all, in training your pointing dogs?

Whoa is a command for a dog to stop and stand still till told to do something else.
It's only real function specifically applied to pointing dogs is if you want the dog to have reliable manners after the flight of the bird. If you are not trying to teach manners after the flush it has no purpose.
It has been argued that "whoa" is the most important safety command, giving the handler control in the face of an unsafe condition. But that application is not specific to pointing dogs and if that is what you are after a reliable "come", "sit" or "down" will be equally or perhaps more effective for such a use.