Who doesn't use an e-collar?

Lander · Post by **Lander** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:34 am

Anyone out there not using an e-collar to train/hunt with? How is it working for you? What programs/methods have you been using?

natel24 · Post by **natel24** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:13 pm

i still use an e-collar out of habit and for those "just in case" moments, the most i have to do now is just use the tone button to get my dogs attention. I do highly recommend them for younger dogs though.

Hoosierdaddy · Post by **Hoosierdaddy** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:09 pm

Lander wrote:Anyone out there not using an e-collar to train/hunt with? How is it working for you? What programs/methods have you been using?

I am an old school guy who at one time would never have even considered an e-collar on any of my dogs over the years.However i now use one on both my dogs and the dogs like them more than i do. I get the collars out and they know we are heading out for some great times!
Probably the best single training tool i have used.

I will say this i read and read and read some more before i strapped an e-collar to either of my dogs.You can certainly train a dog without one,but it will take considerably more time.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:06 pm

I do not "train with" an ecollar although I hang one every pup's neck that comes through the kennel from the very first session. I guess I am old school and my training program is done mostly in the yard utilizing leads and checkcords as well as other tools besides the collar. I actually use an old "dead" collar I have for yard training so the dogs never feel any stimulation for weeks or even months. What I use the collar for is polishing behavior in the field that was taught in my training sessions in the yard. I literally go through hundreds of repetitions in the yard before I ever try a command given in the field. I am absolutely certain I have taught the command completely before I ever give a correction for not following it. How does it work? It is still just part-time for me but I do get paid on a regular basis so I must be doing something right.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:13 am

I don't use one for any other purpose than to sort out sheep chasing dogs. It's probably time I did begin to train for other things with a collar on my dogs for I can't move fast enough to catch them any more !

I think any reasonably fit person can train perfectly good dogs without ever using an e-collar or even a check cord. It just requires a bit more thought and a bit more time and effort.

Bill T.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:11 am

requires a bit more thought and a bit more time and effort.

Correct, and that is one reason we use it.

Charlie

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:06 am

Your reasons are good and I'm not arguing about them . It isn't the only way to get what you want from a dog though , that is often the impression given to newbie gundog trainers who come onto the forum. Just about the first thing they get told is to get onto a good programme .... an e-collar based programme. All I am saying is that the same ends can be achieved by other means.....unless you maybe want to win in your retriever trials ?

Bill T.

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:35 am

I have used them in the past, but haven't used them with the last two dogs. They are certainly a useful tool and if I ever feel like I need one I wouldn't hesitate to go back to using one.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:31 pm

Trekmoor wrote: Your reasons are good and I'm not arguing about them . It isn't the only way to get what you want from a dog though , that is often the impression given to newbie gundog trainers who come onto the forum. Just about the first thing they get told is to get onto a good programme .... an e-collar based programme. All I am saying is that the same ends can be achieved by other means.....unless you maybe want to win in your retriever trials?

Er, Bill, that's for retriever training, as in get onto a good sequential step-by program. Wouldn't make any difference if you were training for the national retriever championship, or to pick a couple of ducks out of your local mudhole or stock pond - the skills brought on via a retriever program are one and same. And should be equally valued by field trialers and duck hunters, one and same, too. Not really any programs for spaniels or pointing dogs, so for those folk "first thing they get told" is sort of non sequitur and nonstarter...

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:34 pm

crackerd wrote: Not really any programs for spaniels or pointing dogs, so I guess "first thing they get told" is sort of non sequitur and nonstarter...

MG

Thought , Cass and his mentor was setting the world a blaze with a nonslip program and a Cocker?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:50 pm

'Fraid that would be a misconception, Robt. - Cass' mentor is one of the most recognized amateur retriever trainers in North America, but, no, he didn't produce a program for spaniels that I'm aware of. Nor did I - just happen to follow what's out there for retrievers - and for retrieving spaniels - to train them nonslip and for, er, meatier water work than what spaniels ordinarily get into.

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:29 pm

Just thought for a while the book was being written?

crackerd wrote: Interesting to see if this happens with Jake, since he's getting trained nonslip by Cass (with Kraka's guidance) via a retriever program, and that kind of rebelliousness does not happen with retrievers even though they have their fun at much greater distances. Nonslip training augmented with the e-collar doesn't mask or hide anything, it's integral to that training program, and in my experience, it's also very good for a flushing spaniel because it's also obedience-based.

A questing or quartering pattern inevitably falls under the heading of obedience, and the pip-pip on your Acme 210.5 is a come about command just like the single blast means to stop for gundogs and three blasts commands them to come in. Any spaniel can come unsteady and most certainly any can also "learn" if it gets by with punching out, there's a wide, wide world out there to explore (and have fun in so doing). Good obedience changes all that. Retrievers don't have "sophomore slumps" or "the terrible twos," and spaniels getting the kind of training Jake's lucked into needn't be overcome by that sort of thing either.

MG

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:51 pm

Thinking you know better than that, besides that book's already been written over here and I don't necessarily agree with its contents. But you might. And as an old football coach used to admonish, I didn't make much money "thinking" the past year anyhow.

And we might also get Cass to tell us how far he went with a retriever program before we ascribe to him or his dog any wood that's been set afire.

Know any UK spaniels that have been trained on the swim-by, Robt., or the wagon wheel drill with 16 bumpers, or pray tell, that handle (crisply) on a water blind? Maybe that book awaits your writing it over there...

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Haven't mastered the 'swim- by' without collar on retrievers ,let alone 'Spaniels' MG !
But then again, ain't mastered a spaniel on non slip retrieving 400 yards on land either !
:roll:

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:40 pm

Lander wrote:Anyone out there not using an e-collar to train/hunt with? How is it working for you? What programs/methods have you been using?

In all honesty, I do not use an e-collar when training a pointing dog...for quite a while anyway.

A good deal of my early training is hands-on, in the yard with the aid of a check cord or two and a pigging string. Early forays into the field are done with the student dragging a check cord. All initial steadiness birdwork is done with a checkcord, prong collar and remote trap.

I recently learned how to correctly use the e-collar on the flank for steadiness work, so I may do it that way on my next pup, but thus far, ALL of my initial work is done without the e-collar. My pups typically do not see an e-collar until they are nearly a year old.

I do hunt my dogs with an e-collar on...just in case it is needed... and ALL of my advanced bird training and patterning is done with an e-collar in place...again...just in case.

RayG

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:04 pm

Leaving aside the possible use of an e-collar on a dog that is pointing, in what ways does e-collar usage differ between the pointing and flushing breeds and the retrieving only breeds ? I confess that I am at a loss to understand the difference between training a pointer to stop/sit or to recall and training a lab to stop/sit or to recall. Aren't exactly the same methods used ?
I know I use the same methods without an e-collar for training those exercises to any breed , just wondered what difference, if any, an e-collar makes to the training ?

Bill T.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:34 am

The original question was "Who doesn't" -- and most posts are about why people do :roll: :roll:

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:38 pm

I don't use a collar in the initial phase of my training program and, with some dogs find it unnecessary. I do, however, condition every dog I train because it is such a wonderful tool for extending control. My philosophy is start young and make them think what you want is what they want. To this day, even though I have about $1200 worth of collars, my primary means of physically controlling the dog is through the checkcord but the only command force train is recall. IMHO, the best way to train without the collar is by understanding that control starts at point blank range and gradually extends out over distance (which is what I used to do exclusively). It takes repetition after repetition in the yard and never allowing the dog to realize you can't reach down and grab the cord. That meant for me, pre-ecollar, that I had to learn not to consistently give commands that were beyond my capability of enforcing. I sometimes had to keep my mouth shut and let the dog run amuck. It also meant setting up "hunting situations" where the dog would fail so I could correct followed by another setup where the dog would succeed so I could reward.

All this being said, there was once a breeder near my home whose specialty was Brittanies. He ruthlessly, and I mean ruthlessly, culled dogs without the exact characteristics he was looking for. His theory was that he was breeding a dog that you could hunt behind successfully with no more control than a solid recall. I hunted behind several dogs he had bred but never had the cash to buy one and I shot a bunch of birds over them.

Firelight · Post by **Firelight** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:38 pm

Lander wrote:Anyone out there not using an e-collar to train/hunt with? How is it working for you? What programs/methods have you been using?

My partner and I don't use one, don't own one. Have had pointing dogs for 40+ years, hunt 100+ days/yr. We don't follow any particular method or program, just basic obedience, daily handling within our little pack to know who is the boss and that they need to pay attention to us, and then we take them hunting for wild birds. Lots of wild birds who teach them more than we ever could. Our expectations for our dogs is that they will staunchly point until we flush/shoot, for our purposes we feel no need or desire to have them steady through the shot/fall. Pups are usually meeting our expectations by the end of their first season, in fact right now we have 2 that were 7 months on opening day and we are very pleased with them. We are not against e-collars and trust me, there are moments that we can see their utility, heck, we're talking about dogs here so they can mess up nearly as often as I do. But we give our verbal corrections (to the dogs, self and each other) and move on. So yeah, there are folks out there not using e-collars and yeah, it's working well for us.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:31 pm

I teach everything on a CC. Didn't use a e-collar for a long time, but they are a handy tool, basically a super long CC.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Del Lolo wrote:The original question was "Who doesn't" -- and most posts are about why people do :roll: :roll:

I understand completely. I recently posted asking for questions from those who force fetch. I posted it on several forums, and roughly 1/3 of those who responded were those who "didn't".

EvanG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:42 am

crackerd wrote: And we might also get Cass to tell us how far he went with a retriever program before we ascribe to him or his dog any wood that's been set afire.

I have kind of taken a hiatus with the non slip stuff. I finished pile work and started into baseball/T work. A cocker is a little trickier but they certainly can do the work and he has came in leaps and bounds. The only reason I have put a hold on it as I have now shifted my sights on tests, and spaniel tests differ greatly from retriever tests. Therefore I have sought out players in that game to get my feet wet. HOWEVER, I have full intentions of going further with with the nonslip training as that level of training completely amazes me and I believe it is excellent for a spaniel. I am confident that I could enter my guy into the SH level and completely skip the JH title because of the solid foundation he has with the retriever training. But I think he (and moreso I) need the experience of being at tests so the JH is something I look forward to.

As far as the e-collar I think it is a valuable tool and is 100x more effective than traditional means of training. It is especially effective for soft dogs. I'm going to go back to the retriever training here, but I think the retriever folks have got it right as far as how it should be used and how to introduce it. I know pointing dog people use e-collars differently - maybe because pointing breeds tend to be harder/more independent, I'm not sure as I have never trained one or been around them. But the "nick" function is so quick that the dog doesn't see it as a nasty correction... It's more like the trainer giving the dog a tap on the shoulder like "Hey, I just gave you a command. Remember?" I think the best thing about the e-collar is it gives the trainer virtually immediate reaction time - which in turns allows to know exactly what it did incorrectly. I've done the whole chase the dog down and return it to the spot thing - by the time of the correction I'm sure the dog is confused about what is going on. The e-collar is at the moment of the infraction, and a much softer correction than can be given with a leash or hands. This allows the dog to progress much faster as it makes the connection sooner. Can it be done without an e-collar? Certainly! It has for centuries! However, it will be a longer road to your destination - kinda like taking the scenic route, not a bad thing, but you have to have lots of time to do it.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:57 am

I don't train with an e-collar.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:33 am

crackerd wrote:Thinking you know better than that, besides that book's already been written over here and I don't necessarily agree with its contents. But you might.
Know any UK spaniels that have been trained on the swim-by, Robt., or the wagon wheel drill with 16 bumpers, or pray tell, that handle (crisply) on a water blind? Maybe that book awaits your writing it over there...

MG

Not to my 'Knowledge',that's why I was 'SO' Interested in following the 'Non-slip' progress with a cocker and Krackadawn's guidance

However,Lander asked?
"Anyone out there not using an e-collar to train/hunt with? How is it working for you?
What programs/methods have you been using?"
It works for me pretty well to the point every one else before me has achieved and with an extra bit of luck now and then it appears to get better.
As far as 'programs' ,well mine are all the same but different depending on the dog in front of me! That's getting on for over a hundred and so far I've been 'Lucky'.
Method's ?, well ...I'm actually going the opposite way of our friend 'with the Cocker' !

Darwin.jpg

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:48 am

So now you go and post a pic of farmboy's friend Phil Robertson in the guise of Chas. Darwin to expound on your training philosophy?

Personally, I prefer Grandpa Erasmus Darwin and his buddies in the Lunar Society for changing direction - especially Joseph Priestley for, you know, his pioneering work with electricity. Lot of "response" to change - and to charge - there, aye?

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:40 am

You boys sure are hard to follow sometimes

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:42 am

crackerd wrote:So now you go and post a pic of farmboy's friend Phil Robertson in the guise of Chas. Darwin to expound on your training philosophy?

Personally, I prefer Grandpa Erasmus Darwin and his buddies in the Lunar Society for changing direction - especially Joseph Priestley for, you know, his pioneering work with electricity. Lot of "response" to change - and to charge - there, aye?

MG

You have a graceful way of making sarcasm into an art form!

EvanG

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:48 am

No saracasm aimed at Polmaise - both he and Phil Robertson can be saluted as right-thinking Cajun-Arcadians and fiercely unapologetic about what they have to say. And, err, no matter how they say it.

MG

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:03 am

We said, and I still think it was artistic.

EvanG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:15 pm

crackerd wrote:No saracasm aimed at Polmaise - both he and Phil Robertson can be saluted as right-thinking Cajun-Arcadians and fiercely unapologetic about what they have to say. And, err, no matter how they say it.

MG

Why thank you Sir'

Farmboy is far too polite and rightly so!..Too many reading books and post's on internet rather than reading dogs

..I just make ''them think'' ?..in between training

...........
If the OP Is asking 'Who' doesn't?.You have to get those 'who Do' !?..Them that don't and them that do ,should not be either side of a line. Try crossing from each side of that line?...I never knew how hot the fire was until I got 'burnt' !....'Yer man' that sells his wares is a salesman ! fine one too!

...
.........
Like ever so much the quote from the 'Cocker Man'...Best dog I ever had!

Wildirishman64 · Post by **Wildirishman64** » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:29 pm

I don't use one either although I have given it some thought. I start mine on clicker training in the yard at home, she is a Germans short hair Pointer, wants to please alot so its relatively speaking. Hope this helps, in the field I use hand motion and whitsle

TonyS · Post by **TonyS** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:33 pm

I won't use a shock collar EVER. Training my dog was more important that 'instant' results. But then I bought a llewellin from proven hunting stock.

Oh, NO TRAINER either. He ranges better than 'trained' shock collar dogs, points and whoas, and now has started circling running birds.

Did I 'teach' him those things - nope. Like I said -llewellin.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:44 pm

TonyS wrote:I won't use a shock collar EVER. Training my dog was more important that 'instant' results. But then I bought a llewellin from proven hunting stock.

Oh, NO TRAINER either. He ranges better than 'trained' shock collar dogs, points and whoas, and now has started circling running birds.

Did I 'teach' him those things - nope. Like I said -llewellin.

The fact that you refer to an E-Collar as a shock collar just devalued any point you were trying to make. Whether it is a lack of understand of how they work and are used to train, or you have never seen one property used on a dog, you clearly haven't been shown their real benefit.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:47 pm

I will stay away from this thread I 'm too arrogant already!!

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:28 am

Ahh. Heck. I wanted to be able to give you trouble again.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:12 am

Wildirishman64 wrote:I don't use one either although I have given it some thought. I start mine on clicker training in the yard at home, she is a Germans short hair Pointer, wants to please alot so its relatively speaking. Hope this helps, in the field I use hand motion and whitsle

Since you're using a clicker already, you might consider looking into George Hickox's collar methods using a very low level "notification" followed by the correction at a more traditional stimulation level. This "notification" serves the same function as a "click", which marks the behavior and follows up with the reward, or in the case of the e-collar, the correction. The ying and yang or reward and correction mirrors. He trained my pointer this way with a clicker and the "notify and correct" methods and she takes corrections very well. If you go this way, keep in mind that most e-collars can't give a low stim followed by a higher stimulation without fumbling with dials. Only a DT SYSTEMS SPT 2400 series and possibly their 1850 will allow you to assign two separate buttons any level for the low and high stimulation independently. The TT Pro series has low-med-hi buttons but they can't be adjusted independently without turning dials.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:17 am

Sharon you have never given me trouble really no one has but I tell it like I see it & several others don't like it!! I guess that makes me arrogant.

TonyS · Post by **TonyS** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:34 am

Bluesky,

and you don't have the thrill of watching a dog you worked with do what it is supposed to do without artificial nonsense. Train the dog. But I know some are just not trainable....................SHOCK!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:27 pm

An e-collar is the greatest of many tools such as leash, collar, check cord, and whatever else you find useful. Like we used to use the shot gun, whip, 2x4, or whatever.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:01 pm

I'm not being pedantic ,or even individual,or personal.
If you think the e-collar is a fantastic tool such as the leash or the check chord ,shot gun or whip!....In my mind...You haven't got the 'Dog's mind'!

It play's with their head'!..Not their body

Who doesn't use an e-collar?...The Question of the thread.
Who uses the e-collar as a positive ?
Just as loaded as the first :roll:

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:10 pm

TonyS wrote:Bluesky,

and you don't have the thrill of watching a dog you worked with do what it is supposed to do without artificial nonsense. Train the dog. But I know some are just not trainable....................SHOCK!!!

You're right. Why use any aversive to guide the dog to the desired response? Why use force fetch when a dog already retrieves?

It's about control. It's another tool to extend the range of your influence. Is an e collar often over used by people who don't fully understand it, yes. But is it any different than a check cord or a heeling stick at 200 yards? No. It provides instant corrections at a distance. Apparently correcting improper behavior isnt training.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:15 pm

TonyS wrote:I won't use a shock collar EVER. Training my dog was more important that 'instant' results. But then I bought a llewellin from proven hunting stock.

Oh, NO TRAINER either. He ranges better than 'trained' shock collar dogs, points and whoas, and now has started circling running birds.

Did I 'teach' him those things - nope. Like I said -llewellin.

TonyS -

I have come to realize that NEVER and ALWAYS are words that should be used sparingly...unless you enjoy chewing on them.

I have also come to realize that others may have very significant differences in the type and gauge of gun the bird hunt with, the species of gamebird they consider the highest challenge and are generally very particular about the breed and type of dog they prefer to share the uplands with.

There are even some who would look down upon anoother's choice of canine bird hunting companion or their methods of training and consider their choice to be superior and the choices of others who do not choose the same... to be uninformed and inferior. Imagine that!!

I mean... I just do not see how any remotely intelligent person who bird hunts, could possibly prefer any other dog to the field trial bred pointer. The pointer is, and always has been the very best of the best in the upland and the field trial bred pointer is the pinnacle of the breed. Everyone knows that.

RayG

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:01 pm

I agree with that last statement of Ray's.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:31 am

I don't think E-collars are 100x more effective than traditional means as some have suggested, you know who you are. I tend to be in the camp of Tonys S others Polmaise. Been using them, but getting away from them and enjoying my dogs more. They seem to respect me and not the Collar, Pretty Cool. If you don't think this translates to all dogs then you don't know dogs, my hound work apples in this regard to all dogs. I don't have much respect for some of you so may be tough to get your dogs respect as well, you could beat him into submission though.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:45 am

Frankug wrote:I don't think E-collars are 100x more effective than traditional means as some have suggested, you know who you are. I tend to be in the camp of Tonys S others Polmaise. Been using them, but getting away from them and enjoying my dogs more. They seem to respect me and not the Collar, Pretty Cool. If you don't think this translates to all dogs then you don't know dogs, my hound work apples in this regard to all dogs. I don't have much respect for some of you so may be tough to get your dogs respect as well, you could beat him into submission though.

I have had dogs trained with and without e collars and i have seen NO difference in there disposition and i notice no change in my pups after they are collar conditioned.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:34 am

Nice Whatsnext, We're in agreement. Seen great dogs both ways too. My choice has just led me away for financial reasons and dog #s. My personal preference thats all and not pushing it on anyone. Thanks.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:11 am

....and peace once again returned to the land...

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:48 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:....and peace once again returned to the land...

It's good to know we can all get a good nights rest.

Nate