Some one who can explain it better than I can....

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whoadog
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Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by whoadog » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:41 am

So often on this site, I see posts about whether or not e-collars are used by those of us visiting the site. It makes me think that a good post on the fundamentals of effective e-collar use might be a good thing. I realize that when I try to explain something I often see it clearly in my own mind but have not explained it well in the written word. Is there anyone out there willing to take the time to write a good post that we can refer others to when they ask the same kind of question?

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:01 am

I'm in favour of that ! :D :D I need it explained in nice simple terms. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Big bloc » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:34 am

I do not own a ecollar but from what I read on here it sounds simple. You are going to build a house. You have all the lumber sitting there. Now you have 2 tools a hand saw and skil saw. Both will cut the would you need. But the hand saw will take longer to get the house built
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:24 am

Yes both the hand saw and the power saw would work but would it not need more care if the power saw was used ?

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:33 am

Bill T
The answer is no...whether you use a handsaw or a power saw wrong the lumber is still cut.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Hoosierdaddy » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:00 am

I like to think of my E-collar as a long distance checkcord.
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by bonasa » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:17 am

Overlay the known commands to the e-collar. Begin with lowest stimulation possible until the dog responds to your reinforcing use of the e-collar to a known command.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:49 am

There are as many different answers to this question as there are trainers.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:14 am

Long distance checkcord sounds about right to me.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:48 am

long distance checkcord does not really tell anybody how to use a e-collar. Trying to learn how on a forum like this will probably have questionable results at best. The best way is for a beginner is to use the manufacturer's instructions or go with a training program.............................Cj

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:36 pm

bonasa wrote:Overlay the known commands to the e-collar. Begin with lowest stimulation possible until the dog responds to your reinforcing use of the e-collar to a known command.
You want simple? That's it. :)
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:55 pm

Sharon wrote:
bonasa wrote:Overlay the known commands to the e-collar. Begin with lowest stimulation possible until the dog responds to your reinforcing use of the e-collar to a known command.
You want simple? That's it. :)
I would Guess ,the OP and many others would require the explanation even more simple than that.
So, the dog 'Sit's. on the command 'Sit' ..100 times out of 100 ! that would be a known command and a 'learned command', Right?
So, Overlay' as suggested would be to command 'Sit' with ''Stimulation'' ,even although the dog knows sit!..Right?
So, the e-collar is now pressure' (at different levels for different dogs) for the known command ..Right?
So, The dog now figures out that it can ''cheat'' the collar (stimulation) by Sitting when told ..Right?
So, Is that overlaying the known command of Sit? :mrgreen:

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Sharon wrote:
bonasa wrote:Overlay the known commands to the e-collar. Begin with lowest stimulation possible until the dog responds to your reinforcing use of the e-collar to a known command.
You want simple? That's it. :)
+2. You just have to wrap your brain around it. The ecollar is NO different than the whip, heeling stick, prod, shotgun, or choke collar. It's simply another training tool that extends your correctable range.

The ecollar is the fastest, most humane, safest, most precise, most efficent and easiest training tool yet invented for dog training.
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:59 pm

The converse could also be true. A dog could be taught that the cue to sit is low level stimulation from the collar. The dog sits 100 times out of 100, when low level stimulation is given from the collar. The word or verbal command 'sit' is then over laid with the stimulation until the dog responds to the verbal command only.

'Sitting' may not be commonly taught this way, I don't know as I do not teach my dogs to sit. I do teach whoa, or stand still with low level stimulation around the flank. The dog is first taught to stand still with a rope that tightens around the flank, also known as a whoa post. Low level stimulation from an ecollar worn around the flank is then over laid with the tightening rope. Later the word 'whoa' is over laid with the stimulation.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by whoadog » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:34 pm

:P :P :P Not what I was expecting but infinitely more entertaining. I've been feeling a bit crotchety lately when I've visited this site. I may keep coming back after all.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:39 pm

whoadog wrote::P :P :P Not what I was expecting but infinitely more entertaining. I've been feeling a bit crotchety lately when I've visited this site. I may keep coming back after all.
Me Too!..just to get your response :lol:

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:02 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: The ecollar is the fastest, most humane, safest, most precise, most efficent and easiest training tool yet invented for dog training.
This is the best, simplest statement about e-collar use. There is no way that is as efficient at timing or more humane than an e-collar. I think people that have not used one have an incorrect view and think that it hurts the dog. Properly conditioned to the dog, the collar should never be so hot as to even make the dog flinch (and certainly not vocalize). It is the easiest way to let the dog know IMMEDIATELY what it did incorrectly, which is the ultimate key to training. It can make a dog progress and learn exponentially faster as the dog can more easily connect the improper action with your correction. For a dog to learn something from a correction it has to be done within 1-3 seconds of the improper action... Even if you're Usain Bolt, you probably can't run your dog down that quickly. And it is certainly a softer correction than a scruffing or anything of that nature.
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:08 pm

Including a 'Clicker' ! ??? ...WOW!

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:09 am

rinker wrote:The converse could also be true. A dog could be taught that the cue to sit is low level stimulation from the collar. The dog sits 100 times out of 100, when low level stimulation is given from the collar. The word or verbal command 'sit' is then over laid with the stimulation until the dog responds to the verbal command.
Actually, this would be a totally incorrect use of the collar. To learn correctly with the ecollar, the dog has to be able to BEAT the issued command. If you don't train in this manner, the dog will never be happy working with an ecollar.

Think of it in terms of yourself. If you were walking in a field or woods, and never knew when you were going to get stimulated, would you be happy about it?

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by birddogger » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:31 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Sharon wrote:
bonasa wrote:Overlay the known commands to the e-collar. Begin with lowest stimulation possible until the dog responds to your reinforcing use of the e-collar to a known command.
You want simple? That's it. :)
+2. You just have to wrap your brain around it. The ecollar is NO different than the whip, heeling stick, prod, shotgun, or choke collar. It's simply another training tool that extends your correctable range.

The ecollar is the fastest, most humane, safest, most precise, most efficent and easiest training tool yet invented for dog training.
U
Can't say it much better than this.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:35 am

gonehuntin' wrote: Actually, this would be a totally incorrect use of the collar. To learn correctly with the ecollar, the dog has to be able to BEAT the issued command. If you don't train in this manner, the dog will never be happy working with an ecollar.

Think of it in terms of yourself. If you were walking in a field or woods, and never knew when you were going to get stimulated, would you be happy about it?

q
+ 1000...........
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:46 am

rinker wrote:
The converse could also be true. A dog could be taught that the cue to sit is low level stimulation from the collar. The dog sits 100 times out of 100, when low level stimulation is given from the collar. The word or verbal command 'sit' is then over laid with the stimulation until the dog responds to the verbal command.

Actually, this would be a totally incorrect use of the collar. To learn correctly with the ecollar, the dog has to be able to BEAT the issued command. If you don't train in this manner, the dog will never be happy working with an ecollar.

Think of it in terms of yourself. If you were walking in a field or woods, and never knew when you were going to get stimulated, would you be happy about it?

q
LIF

As I said in my post, sitting could be a bad example. I don't know because I do not teach my dogs to sit. I went on to give a very brief explanation of training whoa with a whoa post and then over laying the ecollar on the flank, and later over laying the verbal command. I did not learn this from Delmar Smith, or his books/videos, but I think this is pretty close to how he teaches it.

My young dogs learn that a low level momentary stimulation on the neck means 'come', with or without a verbal command. They learn that a low level continuous stimulation on the flank means 'whoa', with or without the verbal command 'whoa'. Later I do away with the flank collar and they learn that a low level continuous stimulation on the neck means 'whoa', with or without the verbal command 'whoa'.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:55 am

rinker wrote:
As I said in my post, sitting could be a bad example. I don't know because I do not teach my dogs to sit. I went on to give a very brief explanation of training whoa with a whoa post and then over laying the ecollar on the flank, and later over laying the verbal command. I did not learn this from Delmar Smith, or his books/videos, but I think this is pretty close to how he teaches it.

My young dogs learn that a low level momentary stimulation on the neck means 'come', with or without a verbal command. They learn that a low level continuous stimulation on the flank means 'whoa', with or without the verbal command 'whoa'. Later I do away with the flank collar and they learn that a low level continuous stimulation on the neck means 'whoa', with or without the verbal command 'whoa'.
You still have kinda-sorta the same problem. When you transition to the neck, how does the dog know to come or whoa with no command being issued? You are now asking the dog to differentiate between momentary and continuous on his own with no verbal cue.

I can understand how it could work for you since you are apparently are only using it for two commands. For those of us that enforce ALL commands by ecollar, it would result in a very insecure and tentative pooch.
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:18 am

[When you transition to the neck, how does the dog know to come or whoa with no command being issued? *]

He already knows to 'come' on a low level momentary stimulation to the neck. This one isn't changing so it usually isn't a problem. If the dog did get confused with this I would go back to how I taught him in the beginning, with a rope. I would overlay the momentary stimulation with pulling him to me with a rope.

The 'whoa' cue is what is being transitioned and is more likely to get confusing. I deal with this the same way that I would deal with any other command. I would overlay it with what he already knows. I would overlay a low level continuous stimulation on the neck, with a low level continuous stimulation on the flank.

The low level stimulation is not punishment or correction, it is a cue. It is a cue that is absolutely consistent. It is exactly the same at ten feet away, or 100 yards, or half a mile. It is the same if the wind is howling, or if it is perfectly still. My voice varies greatly in these situations. It is a cue that can be escalated. If the dog ignores the cue at level one, I can go to level two, etc...

I do not claim to be a horse trainer, but I have a couple of horses. My understanding of physical cues became much better when I thought of it in terms of horse training. Pulling on the right rein is a cue to the horse to turn right, or at least turn his head to the right. If the horse ignores me when I pull on his right rein, I can escalate the cue, pull harder. As a horses training progresses a verbal command can be over layed with pulling on the rein, eventually the horse will start to turn when I just shift my weight in the saddle.

I am not writing this to convince any one that I am right, and every one else is wrong. I took the OP's original question as 'tell me methods for using an ecollar'. I was trying to let him know that there is more than one way.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:24 am

I do a similar thing with "come". I use the vibrate function if he is in thick cover and can't hear through those big spaniel ears. However, when teaching him that the vibration (not sure why you would use a stimulation, it is unnecessary if they dog is not blatantly disobeying) means comes, I would say "here"- vibrate - here or whistle - vibrate - whistle until he associated the vibration with the command. Now I can just hit vibrate and he comes running as he understands it the same as "Here" or "pip-pip-pip". Regardless, the dog needs to know the voice/whistle command before the collar can be overlayed for that command. That being said, if its working for you - carry on.
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:49 am

I think too, the more highly trained a dog is, the more he needs verbal association. My current dog is a versatile dog. She points, retrieves, runs blinds, takes hand signals, lays steady at a blind, is steady to wing, if force broken, and totally obedience trained.

If you take a dog to that level you absolutely NEED verbal association with each command or you'll end up with a mighty neurotic dog. :D
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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:18 am

[If you take a dog to that level you absolutely NEED verbal association with each command or you'll end up with a mighty neurotic dog. :D*]

You may very well be correct. I never suggested that there is only one correct way to train a bird dog. I have a method that works for me. I have several American Field type field trial wins, and hunting dogs that suit me. The original poster asked 'tell me how you use an ecollar?'. I told him how I use an ecollar. He, and any one else that reads my post is free to conclude that is the craziest thing they have ever heard, and not use any of it. The only reason that I responded to your post is because you asked questions, and I tried to answer them.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by whoadog » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:17 pm

This thread has been a hoot! Thanks to all who contributed. But, after reading, I am going to do my best to stay directly on task when I post on a thread. Amazing how these threads take on a life of their own. :P

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Kmack » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:12 pm

I don't like to think in terms of commands, corrections, verbal, silent, etc. I like to think in terms of Queues to which you want the dog to respond in a certain manner and Stimulation you use to teach and remind the dog what you want.

The Queues most important to me are:
1. The direction and speed at which I am moving.
2. Bird Scent
3. Bird in flight
4. Another dog on point.

The responses I seek are 1. The dog to stay to the front or come to me, 2. Dog on point, 3. Whoa, and 4. Whoa.

I use voice, check-cord, and e-collar identically as stimulation to teach or remind the dog to respond in the manner listed above appropriate for the given queue. I find the e-collar to be the most effective most of the time because is is felt by the dog and can be used at longer distance than the check-cord. I get better results from those two than I do from verbal stimulation until the dog is pretty well broke. I think it is because of the physical stimulation being harder to ignore than the verbal.

These are just my thoughts and not intended to be taken too seriously.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by rinker » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:36 pm

I knew I couldn't be the only one using stimulation as a cue/queue.

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Re: Some one who can explain it better than I can....

Post by Maurice » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:46 pm

rinker wrote:I knew I couldn't be the only one using stimulation as a cue/queue.
Plus 2.

Mo

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