Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post Reply
User avatar
gambel
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:56 pm

Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by gambel » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:38 pm

Hi everyone,

I have a very unique situation that I have not had in a long time. I have acquired a nice female shorthair that is just under a year old and has never been on a pigeon or pen-raised bird. She was raised in North Dakota and spent the whole year this last year on wild birds. She went through the sharptail season and about half of the pheasant before she came to me. Usually the predicament is just the opposite. My dilemma now is that the wild bird population where I live is not what it is in North Dakota and I am just throwing this out there as a question. Should I introduce her to pigeons/pen-raised birds to further her training and ultimately get her broke or should I continue to put her on wild birds only and try to break her going that direction? I think the process of breaking her on wild birds is going to stretch out longer because I will be limited on how many bird contacts we will be able to make between now and next Fall but I don't want to screw up a good thing either by going to pigeons or pen-raised. I understand fully the ramifications if she is allowed to catch birds so if she is exposed to pigeons or pen-raised birds it would be using launchers and/or a checkcord or both to avoid any train wrecks in that area. I have just become so used to starting pups on pigeons and pen-raised birds and then transitioning to wild birds for the last several years that this is surpisingly new at this point because I don't think I have had the luxury of having a dog that didn't know what a pen-raised bird is since I was a kid and that's been a long time ago? Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated. :D
Last edited by gambel on Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:52 pm

When wild birds aren't to be found pen raised and pigeons will be far better than no birds! under the circumstances, I'd got right to good flying pen raised birds. The dog may handle them well. Only problem might be matching the pen raised to the wild birds it's used to. Last resort would be pigeons in a remote trap. Then don't cut him any slack, it points right now and holds or the birds is gone.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

rinker
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 am

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by rinker » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:22 am

Go ahead and use pigeons to break the dog. When you go back to hunting wild birds the pup will be way ahead of the curve.

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by gundogguy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:42 am

rinker wrote:Go ahead and use pigeons to break the dog. When you go back to hunting wild birds the pup will be way ahead of the curve.
I'm high volume user of pigeons for teaching, shaping and proofing behaviors. I'll use pen raise birds occasionally, before exposing me dogs in training to wild birds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO__su2_Nn8
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by DonF » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:28 am

Been about 40 yrs since I've seen a springer trained to that level. Magnificent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

User avatar
Firelight
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: ne Kansas or New England

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Firelight » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:09 pm

You should be fine to use good training birds with her. I will give you a heads up though that at first she might be less than impressed with a pigeon/pen bird and may initially have less style or intensity on them or may even not point them at first introduction. They surely smell a whole lot different than wild birds, including contamination by human scent.

Some of our dogs have still never seen a pen bird but when I decided to trial one it was off-season so I started using pen birds. I found that although he is an experienced and skilled wild quail dog, he didn't even point the first couple of pen raised quail.....he reacted to them more as if they were wounded birds. After a few he figured it out. Then when he had pigeons flown for him for the first time he stood looking so confused it was hilarious.

Have fun. Good dogs raised on wild birds can be way ahead on the learning curve.

User avatar
gambel
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:56 pm

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by gambel » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:35 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments and advice. I think I will go ahead with some good strong flying pigeons and see what happens.

Firelight, I think you are absolutely right about what the initial reaction might be. Regardless of the reaction I think with additional exposure she will figure it out. I am really wanting to compete in some NSTRA with this little female as well so she is going to have to figure it out anyway. She is very intelligent and really wants to please so I am fairly confident she will make the transition and still have the ability this Fall to handle wild birds, although that may be another transition for her again to go back but I'm hoping all the exposure she has had already will quicken her ability to switch back and be successful in the real life hunting scenarios.

Thanks again for all your comments!

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by birddogger » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:51 pm

FWIW, I have never had a dog that reacted any different to pen raised birds than they did wild birds and I have never seen any difference in their style. JME.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:54 pm

There are plenty of wild birds in Utah to break a dog, I moved 17 coveys in 2.5 days of hunting two weeks ago. Just takes some boot leather and a little hiking! I personally dont like using pigeons, especially when we have wild birds.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by birddogger » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:18 pm

Elkhunter wrote:There are plenty of wild birds in Utah to break a dog, I moved 17 coveys in 2.5 days of hunting two weeks ago. Just takes some boot leather and a little hiking! I personally dont like using pigeons, especially when we have wild birds.
I would love to have that and used to but those days are long gone here in Illinois.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Meller » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:31 am

birddogger wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:There are plenty of wild birds in Utah to break a dog, I moved 17 coveys in 2.5 days of hunting two weeks ago. Just takes some boot leather and a little hiking! I personally dont like using pigeons, especially when we have wild birds.
I would love to have that and used to but those days are long gone here in Illinois.

Charlie
You can add Missouri to that list!

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by DonF » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:04 am

One problem with pen raised birds is to often they let the dog get to close. next thing to happen sometime's is the dog rush's the bird and catch's it. Once that starts it's only a bit before the dog tries the same thing on a wild bird. Two choices for using pen raised birds or pigeons; check cord or remote traps. You either restrain the dog physically or control the bird until the dog is steady.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:32 pm

I know in some states its not possible, but I am pretty sure that the OP lives in UT. And there are more than enough wild birds to get the job done.

User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Dirtysteve » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:33 pm

Josh
Come on now don't make me do it...

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by birddogger » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:27 pm

DonF wrote:One problem with pen raised birds is to often they let the dog get to close. next thing to happen sometime's is the dog rush's the bird and catch's it. Once that starts it's only a bit before the dog tries the same thing on a wild bird. Two choices for using pen raised birds or pigeons; check cord or remote traps. You either restrain the dog physically or control the bird until the dog is steady.
This is true.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:Josh
Come on now don't make me do it...

I know people do it a lot of different ways, I just have to chime in when I hear "there are not enough birds in UT to break a dog" when I can move 2-4 coveys each time I go out. Woody was about 80 percent broke when I got him back two years ago, hunted him all that year and he was back to chasing birds, then nothing but wild birds that spring and he was ready to roll.

Sadie is close, I will need to use some pigeons to get her STF but she will be ready for Howell!

I am just saying if a guy is willing to walk, there are enough birds in UT to break a dog if he so chooses. Thats all! :)

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by DGFavor » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:11 am

Dirtysteve wrote:Josh
Come on now don't make me do it...

If he does, then I'll have to... :lol:

Image

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Wild Birds vs Pen-Raised Birds and Pigeons

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:04 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I know in some states its not possible, but I am pretty sure that the OP lives in UT. And there are more than enough wild birds to get the job done.

Everyone assumes that a person training a dog has nothing to do but train that dog. That simply isn't true. I can do more in 30 minutes with launchers then in two hours searching for wild birds. You always have to finish a dog on wild birds but you can certainly get 90% of the training done with launchers.

I enjoy other things besides dog training. Once spring comes you'll find me with a fly rod in my hands more than a leash.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Post Reply