Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

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EmLove
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Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by EmLove » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:25 pm

We have a 10 month old Vizsla and are looking for ways to practice pointing.

Currently we work with a dummy that has pheasant wings zip tied to it as well as a Dokken pheasant dummy and pheasant scent. We have one person go where the dog can't see them and throw/hide the dummy. We then bring the dog to the area and have him find it. When we practice that way, our Vizsla knows that it's not a real bird so when he gets the scent he treats it like a dead bird and just retrieves them.

Our ultimate goal is to get him more experience scenting in all types of conditions but also to work on his point. My question is, is it possible to practice a dogs pointing skills without a live bird? If so, how? A dead bird perhaps? Or do we just need to go to the local trainer and buy/rent a few live birds to practice with on the weekends?

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Grousehunter123
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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:41 pm

Yes, use live birds. If your breeder is available as a resource for you I would get back in contact with them. You're also on the right track looking to local trainers for help. You would do yourself a lot of help if you purchased and stuck with a DVD such as The Perfect Start, George Hickcox Great Beginings or one like it. Good luck.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:44 pm

EmLove wrote: My question is, is it possible to practice a dogs pointing skills without a live bird? If so, how? A dead bird perhaps? Or do we just need to go to the local trainer and buy/rent a few live birds to practice with on the weekends?
If you find out ,let me know?..
All them wing on a string stuff may hypnotise you ,but I'm willing to learn from those that know?
Sounds like the local trainer may be the right choice.

smittty
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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by smittty » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:51 pm

welp I am no expert but I will give you my answer to your question NO ... also I see no good coming from that training your doing with that fake bird thing :(

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:27 pm

EmLove wrote: My question is, is it possible to practice a dogs pointing skills without a live bird? If so, how? A dead bird perhaps? Or do we just need to go to the local trainer and buy/rent a few live birds to practice with on the weekends?
Go to your local pro, rent homers.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by DonF » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:22 pm

The best I would think is that your dog learn's to hunt dead. Likely he'll still point if taught to. Thing is he's not catching live birds, he's simply finding part's. Doubtful it will hurt or help his pointing.
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Sharon
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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:44 pm

As has been said a million times, "It takes birds to make a bird dog."

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:05 pm

Get the Perfect Start DVD or another training method and start following it. You don't teach a dog to point - he's wired to do that and it will come with lots of bird exposure. You can teach a dog "whoa" which means to stop, but usually, that comes after a season of hunting wild birds (not always, some don't follow that plan). With a Vizsla, you'll want to get him on as many birds as possible. Wild is best but good flying homers are o.k. Bird parts are no substitute for real birds...get the real birds, get good flyers and get your pup on them as much as you can.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by campgsp » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:00 pm

EmLove wrote: My question is, is it possible to practice a dogs pointing skills without a live bird? If so, how? A dead bird perhaps? Or do we just need to go to the local trainer and buy/rent a few live birds to practice with on the weekends?
If you want the dog hunting and pointing dead birds I would think Your on the right path.
If you want him hunting and pointing live birds take the alternative route. Get live birds. Pigeons are cheep, easy to keep, reuseable and effective.

It's really what you want from the dog in the end that matters. Dead or live birds found...

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by whoadog » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:15 am

Oh no no no no, I'm not bitin' on this one! :D

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:24 am

I think you need some help from a trainer, not just to get some live birds in front of your dog but to tell you how to work the dog onto them.

Most of a retrievers training can be done using dummies (bumpers) and cold game but pointing dogs need live birds and probably quite a lot of finds on them to develop their skills.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:54 am

I wholeheartedly agree with what the others have said.

If you want to do retrieve work...do retrieve work. A dummy works fine for that... so does a Nylabone or tennis ball or stick. If you want to do dead bird work...do dead bird work. A small handful of puppy treats works great for that. A dead bird or a dummy with scent on it work salso, but honestly, if I wanted to teach a dog to hunt dead, I'd wait 'till they were hungry, hide some puppy treats in short grass and take them to the area and command "Hunt dead". You would be amazed at how fast they pick up on that one and how thoroughly they search for every last morsel. Yes it transfers to birds in the field pretty seamlessly when the time comes.

If you want to work on steadiness and style on point...do heel/whoa drills in the yard, do barrel or bench or whoa post work in the yard. That all works just fine.

If you want the dog to get experience with real birds...get real birds. One or two birds, every two or three days is PLENTY for most young dogs. Birdwork is one of those things where less can indeed be more. You always want to quit on a positive note and you always want to quit when the dog is wanting more.

Pigeons in launchers are awesome. You are fortunate to have a helper so you don't even need expensive remote launchers.

Remember...One pigeon, done right is better than a coop full done, so- so. Learn to quit a winner. If the dog does a good job on its first bird. QUIT. Praise the dog, put them up and plan your next outing. Your dog will be better for it. Promise.

RayG

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by birddogger » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:01 pm

If you want to do retrieve work...do retrieve work. A dummy works fine for that... so does a Nylabone or tennis ball or stick. If you want to do dead bird work...do dead bird work. A small handful of puppy treats works great for that. A dead bird or a dummy with scent on it work salso, but honestly, if I wanted to teach a dog to hunt dead, I'd wait 'till they were hungry, hide some puppy treats in short grass and take them to the area and command "Hunt dead". You would be amazed at how fast they pick up on that one and how thoroughly they search for every last morsel. Yes it transfers to birds in the field pretty seamlessly when the time comes.
Ray, this is an excellent, simple and quick way for teaching to hunt dead. It is what I do and it works without fail.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by aulrich » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:41 am

This sounds like a perfect spot to give a plug for you local NAVHDA club you could get benefits like
Hanging out with like minded folks
Mentor ship
Training partners

But also if they are like the one I go to they have contacts to get training birds. Really useful especially the hard to get (around here) live ducks.

Also if you’re stuck in a city, there may be birds hiding under your nose, I have some in an un-fenced designated off-leash area. You would never guess at first glance but pet dogs only walk the top or the bottom and the birds are in the middle. But one cation recall needs to be rock solid.

But if you have the space the a pigeon koop is the way to go.

Google "carding pigeons", you don't even need homers just a cage big enough to keep the birds.

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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:09 am

aulrich wrote:This sounds like a perfect spot to give a plug for you local NAVHDA club you could get benefits like
Hanging out with like minded folks
Mentor ship
Training partners

But also if they are like the one I go to they have contacts to get training birds. Really useful especially the hard to get (around here) live ducks.

Also if you’re stuck in a city, there may be birds hiding under your nose, I have some in an un-fenced designated off-leash area. You would never guess at first glance but pet dogs only walk the top or the bottom and the birds are in the middle. But one cation recall needs to be rock solid.

But if you have the space the a pigeon koop is the way to go.

Google "carding pigeons", you don't even need homers just a cage big enough to keep the birds.
You don't need homer's? It has been a mistaken belief for a long time that you need homer's, nothing farther from the truth. I've had a few ferals that came home from from close to 100 miles. Getting them to home from 50 miles is no trick. After getting homer's I have discovered that ferals actually make a better starting bird. They leave the ground much better than the homer's. A lot of my homer's come out of a trap, kick type, and just walk around a few moment's. Ferals to start and homer's after the point is steady. With pigeons of either type, no hose or card and string is required. Flush them and they go home ready to use tomorrow.
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Sharon
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Re: Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:27 pm

DonF wrote:
You don't need homer's? It has been a mistaken belief for a long time that you need homer's, nothing farther from the truth. I've had a few ferals that came home from from close to 100 miles. Getting them to home from 50 miles is no trick. After getting homer's I have discovered that ferals actually make a better starting bird. They leave the ground much better than the homer's. A lot of my homer's come out of a trap, kick type, and just walk around a few moment's. Ferals to start and homer's after the point is steady. With pigeons of either type, no hose or card and string is required. Flush them and they go home ready to use tomorrow.
I agree. Ferals are great- hard to get them off the roof when they return sometimes though. :)
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Practice Pointing without Live Birds?

Post by will-kelly » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:10 am

Yes you can train a dog without birds but you results will be limited and the time will be much longer with a greater chance of failure.

With that said nothing will work faster or more effectively than wild birds, followed by good flying pen raised birds.

The Dooken dummie probably cost you close to $30. The wings if you didn't harvest them yourself were probably $10. A half a dozen wild pigeons in my area cost about $20. The $20 will be much better spent on the pigeons. You can put a card on the pigeons for training and keep them around in a pen for a few weeks with basic feed and plenty of water. Using them multiple times for training.

Make sure you take the time to properly introduce the pup to the pigeons.

+1 for the NAVHDA recommendation. There are three chapters in Minnesota. http://www.navhda.us/chapterinfo.aspx

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