something new.....

[whoadog]

This is not a request for advice, but more of a back fence discussion starter. So, I'm working with an 18 month old English Setter for a client and I've run across a behavior I have never noticed in another dog. I am using a couple of pigeon launchers to staunch him up a bit. If I place the first launcher in exactly the same spot as I have during another training session (even if it was a day or two ago), he will lock down tight for that bird and every bird that follows. If I put the launcher in a brand new spot, he will almost always crowd to the point I nick the bird out and let it go. However, after the first one flies off and he doesn't get to retrieve, he is reliable on every bird after that. I am fairly certain he does not trust his nose enough yet to forego crowding that first bird, but, I'd be interested in hearing other opinions.

[cjhills]

He is probably more sight pointing and is not quite getting the scent thing. dogs have a very good memory and are place oriented. If you put out a ribbon to mark a launcher some dogs will learn very soon to point the ribbon. I have a female we use for pointing demos in seminars, she will point the spot where the launcher was the year before. First time that happened I was amazed. Sometimes this happens from wing on a string or other sight pointing training as a puppy.........................Cj

[DonF]

If he's getting to close to all after the first, you're popping the birds way to slow. Pop them as soon as he hit's them. Keep that up and he'll point the bird faster than you can pop it and you know where the bird is! Don't pop it when he beats you, just if he moves anything after that.

[Grousehunter123]

Some dogs have/develop obsessive-compulsive routines which they need to satisfy before getting down to business. He knows what to do. It just appears like he has developed a new environment bird quirk and once he gets through his crowding /busting itch...he settles down. Who knows???

[slistoe]

Why does he get an opportunity to crowd?

[mountaindogs]

I agree I think he wants to see it. Confidence, or lack of, in a bird actually there. Drill spots he knows are likely because he did that before. New spot he wants to see it or smell it more strongly. Were it I, I'd try putting some feathers on the ground outside the launcher or rubbing the bird around on the grass before loading the launcher. Down wind of the launcher. Make the smell a little stronger, set the dog up for success, but be prepared to pop the bird anyway. I think this will help tell you whether the dog is just unsure or whether he wants to see it anyway. I have only a little setter experience but they have all been "SIGHT" oriented dogs. Prone to puppy sight pointing everything that flutters so maybe that's a clue. or not.

[whoadog]

Why does he get an opportunity to crowd?

He doesn't. As soon as he makes solid scent and does not stop, the bird gets popped. But, the only time he does not stop is on that first bird that is placed in a new spot.

Sometimes this happens from wing on a string or other sight pointing training as a puppy

Another trainer started this dog and was unsuccessful, wing on a string has not been used with this dog.

If you put out a ribbon to mark a launcher some dogs will learn very soon to point the ribbon

I've had a similar experience with my old manual launcher. I added 150' of light nylon line so I could launch sooner when I needed too. I had some that would point the end of the line.

Drill spots he knows are likely because he did that before. New spot he wants to see it or smell it more strongly.

That's my thinking too. But, it is really interesting to me that every bird after the first one of the session he points immediately and staunchly.

[gonehuntin']

DonF, as usual, nailed it. Mr. Launcher.

[slistoe]

Why does he get an opportunity to crowd?

He doesn't. As soon as he makes solid scent and does not stop, the bird gets popped. But, the only time he does not stop is on that first bird that is placed in a new spot.

Yes he does. What is this "solid scent" thing? He indicates scent, hit the button. Heck, hit the button on him before he makes scent a few times if you are really worried that he is not cautious enough.

[slistoe]

Does the dog actually have an issue? What does he do on wild birds? Does he take out the first bird and get solid for the rest of the hunt or does he point them solid?

[whoadog]

ctually have an issue? What does he do on wild birds? Does he take out the first bird and get solid for the rest of the hunt or does he point them solid?

There is no real issue in my book. Like a said in the beginning, it's more of a back fence discussion. If I plant the first bird of the day in a location that I have not used in previous sessions, he takes it out and, after that, is solid on every bird after that. If I plant the first bird of the day in a location that I have used in a previous session, even one from several days before, he is solid on that one too, as well as all of those that follow. It is a curiosity to me as I have never had one like this before. I was mostly just wondering if anyone else had noticed anything like it with their dogs.

Yes he does. What is this "solid scent" thing? He indicates scent, hit the button. Heck, hit the button on him before he makes scent a few times if you are really worried that he is not cautious enough.

What I call solid scent is when the dog obviously recognizes a bird is nearby. It sounds like you call it "indicating scent." It's just a little different terminology. From the sound of it, everyone involved in the conversation to this point can recognize when the dog has "made" the bird. When I see the dog knows the bird is there, if he doesn't stop, I pop the bird. I use feral pigeons that I catch in traps so I've got maybe 5 cents per bird. I don't mind watching them fly off. Again, this is just something I never noticed with another dog that he so consistently bumps only the first bird in a new location but is always solid on the first bird in plant where I have planted one before.

[mountaindogs]

I wonder what would happen if you picked him up everytime after he knocked a bird?

[slistoe]

So if you didn't pop the bird the dog just continues on in and grabs the launcher? He is ripping the bird? He rips the wild ones as well?

[whoadog]

So if you didn't pop the bird the dog just continues on in and grabs the launcher? He is ripping the bird? He rips the wild ones as well?

I think he would continue to the launcher if I did not pop the bird. He has never grabbed the launcher because the bird has always been long gone before he got that close. Would he grab it? I don't think so but I could be wrong. I'm not quite sure I know what you are asking with ripping the bird. If you mean pushing it out without pointing, weekend before last he did. But, that was the first weekend I had him and I wanted to see what he would do. He put up three pheasants but did flash point a covey of quail. We are headed out this weekend to see if we have made any progress with the training. I'm expecting to see a difference. He went from bulling right in a week and a half ago to a beautiful slam on the brakes 25 yard point this morning as he came into the scent cone.

I wonder what would happen if you picked him up everytime after he knocked a bird?

I think with this dog he might actually fold up on me a little. I can control him with just my voice and no ecollar at all. He is really soft in that regard and does not react well to any kind of real pressure. He does love birds in his mouth though. Like I said, after he bumps the first one and there is no shot he is solid from then on. I just find it curious that he is solid on the very first bird when it is planted in a spot I have used before in the past few days and not when it is in a new location.

[slistoe]

I just find it curious that he is solid on the very first bird when it is planted in a spot I have used before in the past few days and not when it is in a new location.

That is simply a memory thing. I have had dogs that would lock up on a willow brush that they had found sharptail in a week earlier. Of course there were none there that time, but they were pointing a memory out of a desire to "do the right thing".

[slistoe]

So the dog is ripping birds and taking them for a ride. And he continues to want to do so. He tries it until you establish that you are in control and he has to mind. Which he does - but when presented with a new situation he will give it a try again. He does not believe that the requirement to point his birds applies in all places and at all times.
Taking him out on birds to "see what he will do" runs a big risk in further ingraining that behaviors are specific to place and time and that the progress you have made in the yard does not apply there. Wild birds do not offer the trainer any control over the situation.

[Moulders Farm]

I belive like others have said when the sent is not as strong he wonts to see the bird or sight point . put another bird or two in a palch when he gets close to the bird throw a pigion or bird up behind him when he points & moves relice another pigion . also place your bird in a basket with a long string on it to use as a relice in stead of the lancher after a while they start looking & smelling for the lancher a smart dog can start playing the game on you .

[mountaindogs]

You do know by "pick him up" I just mean stop the game and go back right?
Just put out one launcher then. Only one bird, if leashing him and finishing is too much pressure.

[whoadog]

You do know by "pick him up" I just mean stop the game and go back right?
Just put out one launcher then. Only one bird, if leashing him and finishing is too much pressure.

Yes, I know what picking him up means and I am only using one launcher at this point.

So the dog is ripping birds and taking them for a ride. And he continues to want to do so. He tries it until you establish that you are in control and he has to mind. Which he does - but when presented with a new situation he will give it a try again. He does not believe that the requirement to point his birds applies in all places and at all times.

That's an interesting thought. So, what about the next bird, why does he point it staunchly even though I move the launcher (I'm not sure I mentioned that before). I do move the launcher every time whether or not he gives me a good point. Wouldn't that also qualify as a new situation every time I move the launcher? I have been putting 3 to 5 birds a day down for him.

By the way, I really am not soliciting advice for fixing a problem. I'm quite certain we will get where we are going in the very near future. I'm just curious if anyone else has run across a dog that would do this or something similar.

[cjhills]

Seems like almost all issues are resolved with good birds and unting experience. This sounds like a very intelligent dog.

[slistoe]

That's an interesting thought. So, what about the next bird, why does he point it staunchly even though I move the launcher (I'm not sure I mentioned that before). I do move the launcher every time whether or not he gives me a good point. Wouldn't that also qualify as a new situation every time I move the launcher? I have been putting 3 to 5 birds a day down for him.

By the way, I really am not soliciting advice for fixing a problem. I'm quite certain we will get where we are going in the very near future. I'm just curious if anyone else has run across a dog that would do this or something similar.

I don't think I have ever run across a dog that believed a command learned in the training field applied to all places and times from the get go. Some were harder to convince of it than others.
As for the dog remembering very specific locations and events the most graphic example of that was when I was training retrievers with a fellow. After a number of drills of various types he set up a long mark across the prairie grass. His dog took off hard but about 100 yards out made a wide swing and then came back to the line and picked the bird. On the return he did the same thing. When I asked he said that about a month ago he had burned that dog on a poison bird in that spot and the dog remembers. To further illustrate he set up a blind from a completely different angle going 20 yards to the side of the location. The dog took the line straight to the bird but we moved over such that the return path went through the "hot" spot. The dog took a swing wide of it on the return.
It is in the interaction after the flush of the first bird that you are establishing control. At that point the dog is convinced you have control of the situation and you need to be minded. However, the fact that he will test you again in a similar situation the next day shows he has not yielded at all. I would certainly not give this dog an opportunity to further entrench in his mind that there is a difference between wild birds and launcher birds, between training field and hunting field.
I have worked a couple of dogs similar to this. The advice from a well known pro was to emphasize authority on the dog in the interaction with birds. They will either start to point them or blink them. One way you will have a bird dog, the other you have the same thing as you have now - a dog. They both became bird dogs.

[mountaindogs]

Frankly, all the setters I have worked so far (admittedly not many) have had very quirky issues. Very birdy very stylish but slow to follow the rules and ultra soft and ultra obnoxious at the same time. I need to work a well socialized great young setter sometime and not have all my exposure to them be dogs after being stuck in a kennel for year 1. They are beautiful dogs. And affectionate.

[mountaindogs]

Actually now that I have had time to think, my husband had a guide dog GSP that would take out the first 1 - 2 birds he ran across then do fine. Husband started setting the dog up to get a collar correction in the first 20 seconds by calling the dog back on break away or changing directions immediately 2 or 3 times and said it helped remind the dog that life had rules. BUT this was an ultra tough dog. Similar start though.

[slistoe]

One of the dogs I referenced was a Setter. Too smart for their own good?

[TonyS]

Dump the launcher. It's time for birds.