Gun Dog Forum

any recommendations? two year old shorthair..she is a good pointer - hunts, uses wind and steady to flush but retrieving didnt come naturally to her. I plan on duck hunting next year, depending on her desire to learn this. I have the West/Gibbons seminar from Higgins that has a special retrieving portion although not very detailed. Using the pinch collar to hold, progressing to further retrieves, etc..I also have the NAVHDA Green Book that has a step-by-step plan i was thinking of using. Her first year I used to play yard fetch with her (knew i would regret it), so I may have made retrieving boring or annoying for her.

My recommendation is to put her through a complete, step by step force fetch program. You may not be familiar with what I'm referring to because there are many outdated notions about what force fetch is. It's far more than in decades past. It begins with formalizing obedience. Then "Hold" training.

...click on image for video

Then "Fetch"...

...click on image for video

And having completed these two steps many trainers would assume you're finished. In fact, having finished these two steps you will only have begun. To be continued.

EvanG

Follow Evan's advice to the letter,

Neil

Neil wrote:Follow Evan's advice to the letter,

Neil

What he said!

Charlie

Agree...FF is most likely your best recourse at this point.

Have a very good "talk" with yourself and honestly assess your ability to do your own FF work with only a book or expensive DVD as your resource. I'd recommend finding a local trainer who will let you watch him with the process. Some pros work with dog and trainer, some you send off and they do it all. You can screw up your dog. Yet, done right it is a great thing.

Grousehunter123 wrote:1. Agree...FF is most likely your best recourse at this point.

2. Have a very good "talk" with yourself and honestly assess your ability to do your own FF work with only a book or expensive DVD as your resource.

3. You can screw up your dog.

4. Yet, done right it is a great thing.

1. Agreed
2. "SmartFetch" is not expensive
3. Not if you precisely follow "SmartFetch"
4. Agreed

Del Lolo wrote:

Grousehunter123 wrote:1. Agree...FF is most likely your best recourse at this point.

2. Have a very good "talk" with yourself and honestly assess your ability to do your own FF work with only a book or expensive DVD as your resource.

3. You can screw up your dog.

4. Yet, done right it is a great thing.

1. Agreed
2. "SmartFetch" is not expensive
3. Not if you precisely follow "SmartFetch"
4. Agreed

2. The whole package is $249.90. That's expensive to me. To buy the individual modules one by one is even more than that.

3. And yes....no matter how well intentioned the owner and no matter how effective the method....one CAN screw up a dog; especially FF their dog. I'm very experienced training my own dogs but know my limitations. I have a great grouse dog that would not retrieve. No way would I risk messing up a grouse dog with me attempting to FF him myself. Some dogs take easier to it. It can go real quick or take a while. I used a professional and got outstanding results. My dog was a hard case. I knew it and discussed it with my pro. There is no cookie cutter one size fits all to dog training. My point to the OP is to make a careful decision. I disagree with you that if he precisely follows SF the risk of screwing up his dog is removed. You nor I know enough about the OP's training skill or the dog to make such a guarantee. My advice remains to the OP to look for hands on help with a pro. He may then find that he can FF his dog on his own and yes, there are any number of books and DVD's out there that would help him.

Ah, what is it your dog is doing wrong? Does it even go to the bird or just not bring it back, what's happening? You said you played yard fetch with her. What about it is what you regret? Anymore you ask 100 people how to train your dog to retrieve and 99 say force fetch.

I put a NAVHDA VC on Maggie this fall. I bought the whole Smart series DVD and book. We practiced all the drills. Highly recommend the program. Hope to make it to one of his seminars this spring in Ohio.

Grousehunter123 wrote:2. The whole package is $249.90. That's expensive to me. To buy the individual modules one by one is even more than that.

Well, let's be a little more specific. The entire SmartFetch program is $70; that's the book & the DVD set. Expensive? Try hiring a pro to FF for $70. Try hiring a credible pro for a month for $250. I charged twice that in 1990, and was lower than some of my peers. If a pro told me he'd FF my dog for $250 I'd run the other way. That $249.90 purchases an entire training program on retrieving that spans a working dog's entire career. That is a major bargain.

Grousehunter123 wrote:3. And yes....no matter how well intentioned the owner and no matter how effective the method....one CAN screw up a dog; especially FF their dog. I'm very experienced training my own dogs but know my limitations. I have a great grouse dog that would not retrieve. No way would I risk messing up a grouse dog with me attempting to FF him myself. Some dogs take easier to it. It can go real quick or take a while. I used a professional and got outstanding results.

Each of us has to make our own decisions about our own aptitude. I don't think you need special aptitude to train dogs, unless you intend to compete at a high enough level that you need to be the best, including FF. You need far less of it with SF than any method I know of because of several factors. The program is simplified, low key/low pressure, and is individualized dog to dog. It is not geared toward overwhelming a dog with pressure to make him submit as many other forcing methods do it. SF is a pressure conditioning course, and that is a very different approach. I've received literally hundreds of letters/emails from trainers who did it themselves with their very first dogs, and were successful.

Grousehunter123 wrote:I disagree with you that if he precisely follows SF the risk of screwing up his dog is removed. You nor I know enough about the OP's training skill or the dog to make such a guarantee. My advice remains to the OP to look for hands on help with a pro. He may then find that he can FF his dog on his own and yes, there are any number of books and DVD's out there that would help him.

The risks of failure always exist, even if you hire someone to do it. It would mean far more to anyone in assessing their ability to perform this task by learning how it's done. All methods are not created equal. And all pros are not equal either. If you're going to trust your dog to a pro, find the best one, not the cheapest one. That goes for programs for those who will train their own dogs as well.

I believe in hiring pros...good ones. I don't believe hiring pros is entirely a matter of amateurs not having ability. Often the amateur doesn't have facilities, or time, or are aiming at competition, or have a dog with special training problems. Pros earn their money, and the good ones have experience no amateur will ever have. But this is Basics. Frankly, most people can learn to give a dog sound Basics if they'll use the right approach, and do the work. They'll learn a special pride in having done it themselves, and deepen the bond with their dogs for the experience.

EvanG

yes she goes to the bird. She knows the gun shot means dead bird so she looks for it but does not bring back..Sometimes she will pick the bird up.

Magspa

Your avatar pic has two dogs in it.

Will the other dog retrieve?
Do you hunt them together?

Db

WOW!! All I'm trying to do is help a fellow bird hunter out who is looking for a variety of ideas. My posts aren't to sell DVD's or books or drumb up business for the pro who FF trained my dog. I'm just offering some blue collar advice to a guy who wants some options and ideas. RELAX!! It's gonna be alright. LOL!!

I have the same problem. Great pointer but lacking on bringing the bird to hand
Any trainer recommendations in SW ohio for FF

I've watched both Dobbs Trained retrieve and the smart fetch program. My thought through both of them was, "How could anyone see anything more than a real bonding experience from these programs"? If you have time, you can do it and if you follow the program chances of ruining the dog are pretty slim. Don't expect it to happen overnight however. It is a conditioning program and thus takes time. If either you or your dog are getting frustrated, time to back up and go to something you know well. Then move forward again. I'm no pro, but I did manage to take my dog through the program and have her come out on the other side loving retrieve drills.

Someone should make a video on how to teach a dog to retrieve without the force method. Anybody still remember how?

I sold the other dog when she was 1yo cause we were expecting my son to be born. She wasn't a retrieving beast but had more natural desire to and loved carrying birds, and soft mouthed. Good call DonF, any tips for non ff? and i plan on doing it my self. If i can find a local trainer to do sessions with that would be great but I only know of one in my area - http://linedriveretrievers.com/

magspa wrote:...any tips for non ff?

I'd start by having a solid recall and a reliable "hold"...... about all you should need with a gsp!

cr

recall is consistent.

DonF wrote:Someone should make a video on how to teach a dog to retrieve without the force method. Anybody still remember how?

I trained many of them well before I began using FF or e-collars. Several of them were QAA (qualified all age) field trial dogs. At least 2 of them should have been FCs, and would have been if I had given them better tools to work with.

EvanG

magspa wrote:.....If i can find a local trainer to do sessions with that would be great but I only know of one in my area...

Two different NAVHDA chapters in Texas, find one that is near and attend a training day. You should be able to find plenty of help there.

cr

Evan

Can you tell us how you trained the retrieve
Before you used FF?

Db

Training a pup to retrieve is not too difficult if the pup has a decent retrieve instinct. Training an adult dog that already has found out that hunting is fun is likely to be considerably more difficult. I try hard to encourage both hunting and retrieving at the same time but if a pup shows lots of interest in hunting and not much interest in retrieving then I stop all hunting until I have persuaded the pup that retrieving is good fun too.

I don't train F.F. but all of my dogs retrieve well and hunt too.

I don't know enough about F.F. to say this for sure but I think the trainer maybe has to be more in tune with the dog/pup to train the retrieve without the use of F.F. ???

Bill T.

Does the dog still enjoy "play fetch"? If it doesn't you really don't have much to build on without FF IMO.

She will enthusiastically for a bit..doesn't always bring it directly to me, may run past and circle around. I haven't been too stern about it tho so I don't take what little desire she has

Donnytpburge wrote:Evan

Can you tell us how you trained the retrieve
Before you used FF?

Db

Yes. It would be a mistake, yet one many make, to assume that FF is a tool used to make non-retrieving dogs, or dogs that don't retrieve naturally into retrievers. It's done, and it will surely be effective if done properly. But what FF does far more often is to ignite and/or enhance the natural spark in each dog. There are some pretty standard fetch games that we use all the time for puppies...all of them. They look pretty much like this.



Be patient, and keep it fun. Each dog takes a different amount of this to light his fire. Some very little. Some quite a bit. But you should bring out all the natural desire to fetch before you FF.

EvanG

Let me quote Hall of Famer Buddy Smith, "they will all retrieve, some just won't come ". Not my experience, but I can't argue with his. The man dominated NBHA, before he moved to All-age.

I still believe in Evan's FF, but thought I should share other concepts. Buddy believes in a solid recall.

She will come just fine..but drops the bird then comes

Magspa

If she is picking the bird up then dropping you might
Can talk her into it if you can run her with a
Good retriever. It turns into a competition.
I had a pointer that would pick a bird up and run around, she
Picked up bringing the bird back after I sent my
Gsp in to take it from her. Once he started
Chasing her around she started brining the
Birds straight to me. Over time ( a season) she became
A reliable retriever. She still has her moments , but my gsp is always pretty
Close by to keep her in check.

Might be worth a shot if you are not
Gonna FF.

DB

I don't mind doing the ff..im not sure what method..any experience with the two I mentioned in my first post?

SMART FETCH!! However, if you choose to not ff, you could just go with a solid hold. You can also learn this through smart fetch.

Charlie

sounds like smart fetch is the way to go. I will start pricing it. I looked at gundogsupply and they have a lot of smartwork dvds. Not sure which one im looking for. I dont plan on doing any competitive retrieving drills oranything. Just want her to locate birds, track winged birds in brush, and do it soft mouthed land and water.

magspa wrote:sounds like smart fetch is the way to go. I will start pricing it. I looked at gundogsupply and they have a lot of smartwork dvds. Not sure which one im looking for. I dont plan on doing any competitive retrieving drills oranything. Just want her to locate birds, track winged birds in brush, and do it soft mouthed land and water.

You'll get free shipping directly from us at www.evan-graham.net .

EvanG

magspa wrote:She will come just fine..but drops the bird then comes

I see you have your e-collar strapped to your side. When she goes for the retrieve, are you stimulating or have you stimulated her with the e-collar at the time the recall command is given....?

cr

no never used it during a retrieve because i never properly taught her to retrieve. I have used it to reinforce "here" but not since I first introducing to ecollar

magspa wrote:I have used it to reinforce "here" but not since I first introducing to ecollar

Not sure I understand your statement above.......but, if she is dropping the bird when you give the "here" she is probably anticipating the stimulus regardless if it is applied or not.

cr

Sorry, i think i misunderstood your quesion. I have never nicked her with the ecollar while going out for a retrieve or coming back from, never nicked her while holding a bird or any object. I do use it to reinforce the general "here" command.

magspa wrote:.....I do use it to reinforce the general "here" command.

Do you give a verbal "here" when she picks up the bird? If you do (whether you simulate or not)......is there a possibility she is anticipating the stimulation at the sound of the "here" command and drops the bird?

I'm currently running my DD through Evan's Smartwork Basics Pack, I highly recommend it, well worth the money.

I usually give her a chance first and then give "here" command. She has a solid recall though and I rarely have too use stim but that could be it. Hunt 24/7, thats the direction im leaning, just not sure which portions ill need

magspa wrote:She will enthusiastically for a bit..doesn't always bring it directly to me, may run past and circle around. I haven't been too stern about it tho so I don't take what little desire she has

Get SmartFetch.
And since Evan comes to this site, you can always ask him questions right here.

magspa wrote:I usually give her a chance first and then give "here" command. She has a solid recall though and I rarely have too use stim but that could be it. Hunt 24/7, thats the direction im leaning, just not sure which portions ill need

I'm curious as to how you e-collar conditioned to this command before using it and supporting it with the collar?

EvanG

Used the Bill West / Training with MO method for all her training - CC with leather pinch collar, then combined with ecollar nick and tug, then without CC/pinch.

magspa wrote:She will enthusiastically for a bit..doesn't always bring it directly to me, may run past and circle around. I haven't been too stern about it tho so I don't take what little desire she has

This does not sound like her recall is consistent.

Review your posts, and ask yourself if you're being honest with your situation. If you let a pro evaluate you and your dog, and you'll likely get the answers you need.

FF is not a process which you want to skimp at or pick and choose bits and pieces. Start at the beginning and follow through to the end or you won't be satisfied with your results. Many people don't have the heart to put pressure on their own dog. If this is the case don't set yourself and your dog up for failure, and have the ff performed by a pro.

Nate

Recall is consistent. In this situation ("She will enthusiastically for a bit..doesn't always bring it directly to me, may run past and circle around. I haven't been too stern about it tho so I don't take what little desire she has") when i give the here command she will stop running around and come to me, but drop it first. If I give her "here" before picking it up, she wont pick it up, will just come right back to me. I dont mind being tough or putting pressure on her butI want to do it the right way and avoid making a little problem a big problem, or creating a new problem. She will come when i say "here" 99% of the time but not with something in her mouth. I trained her to be a good hunter, uses the wind, trails, checks in, honors and backs, steady to flush, but does not retrieve.

If recall is a problem you could try a couple of different things before going to the ff. If performing the ff is your concern, this may help get you moving in the right direction.

1. Use a whoa board. When the dog is comfortable and consistent in standing on the board, call her to you and have her stand in heel. Next stand next to her with her in the heel position on the board, and send her to retrieve a dummy. If the board work was done gradually, properly and consistently she should return to the board with the dummy. This exercise is intended to build confidence in the dog and help alleviate confusion.

2. Use a retrieving corridor. Set up a corridor made with 6 t-posts and some 4' plastic snow fence. Stand or better yet kneel down at the open end. Get the dog excited with a dummy and throw it part way down the corridor. When you call the dog back she won't be able to go past you. Praise her for returning with the dummy.

Good luck,

Nate