Wild birds vs pen raised

[muleskinner]

I never hunted pen raised birds until a few months ago. The birds i've been using stay exactly where they are planted. Does this hinder a dogs ability to trail birds? Seems like it might, but again, this is my first time using pen raised birds. I don't have enough wild birds here to do any good, so i'm pretty much limited to pen raised for training purposes.

[whoadog]

The short answer, in my opinion, is "no". But, you may have started a whole new discussion about ground trailing birds versus hunting only air-borne scent. Why do you want your dog to ground trail?

[shags]

It depends on the cover. If you throw them down under a bush or clump of grass, they're going to stay there because they don't want to expose themselves to predators - it's instinct. If you put them in light woods, or a narrow strip along a ditch then they are much more likely to move. In the right cover, they can move like crazy.

When quail run, I want my pointy dog to relocate with his nose in the air, not against the dirt like a hound. IME the dog can locate them at a distance; if he's snuffling along the ground, he's more likely to bump them or keep them running.

[Bounty_Hunter]

What's the difference between wild birds and stocked birds anyway? Here in PA the state puts out birds before season and during the season and supposedly those stocked birds have very little human contact and are fed somewhat wild diets. And what about the stocked birds that don't get shot and manage to survive to next hunting season, can I consider them wild birds then?

[Grousehunter123]

The OP is most likely talking about pen raised birds having just been planted.

Big difference between pen raised birds just planted and wild. Much smaller difference between early spring stocked birds and wild. Slight to no difference on survivors over a season into the next.

[markj]

What's the difference between wild birds and stocked birds anyway

Wild birds are smart, they learn every day. Pen raised do not get that education. Wild birds learn to get out of the area due to car doors slamming etc. Come out the middle of the season and go on a wild bird hunt, it may open your eyes.

[GSP4ME]

^ A great many people will tell you those birds dont make it from one season to the next -that they're not equipped and predation and an inability to find suitable habitat/food takes its toll sooner or later. There are just as many who will disagree. I dont know enough to argue it one way or the other.

[Bounty_Hunter]

^ A great many people will tell you those birds dont make it from one season to the next -that they're not equipped and predation and an inability to find suitable habitat/food takes its toll sooner or later. There are just as many who will disagree. I dont know enough to argue it one way or the other.

I would have to agree with the idea that most don't survive. I hunt an area that is stocked 3 or 4 times per season, and the birds are usually gone before spring. I do see more predator activity in these stocking areas during the fall too. We do have (WPRA)s and these areas are producing populations of wild birds, and there is talk that PAs pheasant population will get better in the coming years. Hope they are right.

[roaniecowpony]

If pen raised birds are blinded to prevent running and their beaks cut, it's not likely they'll survive long. Other than that, I would think a bird raised in a large flight pen with minimal human contact, might do as well as a young wild bird in the same conditions. Of course, the wild bird's odds of a long life aren't good either.

[Trekmoor]

I think dogs get a very false impression of how "easy" it is to hold a bird (pheasant) on point if the birds it encounters are released from a pen. In the early Autumn of the year I do what is called "dogging-in" which is sort of herding straying released pheasants back in towards the more central areas of shoots. The birds hold for points then in a way that seldom happens by the end of the shooting season.

Pheasants that have been born and reared in the wild are often particularly hard to get a solid point on. They often begin to move off as soon as they see or hear you coming and very often run like stink from the point. I have seen quite a few otherwise very good pointing dogs that cannot quite get to grips with wild bred pheasants..... I think the foxes etc. killed off all the more stupid birds !

In my experience G.S.P.'s handle these running birds in a different way from, for example, brittanies. G.S.P's usually try to follow the footscent of the departed bird while the brittanies are more inclined to break off from the footscent and resume quartering in an effort to pin the bird with another point.

Bill T.

[Sharon]

The short answer, in my opinion, is "no". But, you may have started a whole new discussion about ground trailing birds versus hunting only air-borne scent. Why do you want your dog to ground trail?

I don't think he means "trail" like a beagle. I believe he means how does a dog learn to relocate/pin a bird , if only trained on pen- raised birds - who may stay put always.


PS with the kind of winter we've had , it will be interesting to see when the woodcock move through the Niagara flyway this year.

[Mountaineer]

...PS with the kind of winter we've had , it will be interesting to see when the woodcock move through the Niagara flyway this year.

Woodcock in SE Ohio a couple of days ago.

Pen-raised birds can not be compared by the name alone....planted birds, same again.
Just as Preserves can not be compared or state-release areas, for that matter...the particulars from the cover available to them to the food to their physical condition upon release to ad nauseum, along with the length of time the released birds are out and about are what determine any closeness to a wild bird of the same species.
The dog won't care...the hunter may be able to tell the difference based upon experience....whether that difference matters depends upon the reason the hunter is there and the value he expects to receive for the time spent.

For pheasants, there is no release pheasant in the East that supplies all that surrounds the flushed bird on the plains and the surrounding particulars are often what matter more than the bird itself.
One can encounter easy and tough birds, wild or pen-raised....what changes are the odds and the background.

[birddog1968]

What's the difference between wild birds and stocked birds anyway? Here in PA the state puts out birds before season and during the season and supposedly those stocked birds have very little human contact and are fed somewhat wild diets. And what about the stocked birds that don't get shot and manage to survive to next hunting season, can I consider them wild birds then?

you know the best way to hunt those PA stockers....... start a tractor up and they come running.

[roaniecowpony]

Hunt club pen birds are often blinded to prevent running. A true flight pen raised bird with minimal human contact (that hasn't been blinded) will be wary and run or fly easily according to my friend that raises thousands of pheasant every year.

[Tooling]

What's the difference between wild birds and stocked birds anyway? Here in PA the state puts out birds before season and during the season and supposedly those stocked birds have very little human contact and are fed somewhat wild diets. And what about the stocked birds that don't get shot and manage to survive to next hunting season, can I consider them wild birds then?

you know the best way to hunt those PA stockers....... start a tractor up and they come running.

BS

Just released...yes..the birds have no bearing whatsoever and are stupid stupid stupid. There are also crowds of "hunters" just waiting for the release door to open too...doesn't seem very sporting to me, but that's just my opinion. I am there to hunt while some may be there to fill the fridge. I've also met quite a few older gents who just cannot navigate the terrain that they once could so a fresh release sure seems to put a smile on their face giving them a chance to remember days gone by kicking the grass...I always enjoy a nice conversation with these fellas

To suggest the survivors are not as wiley a Rooster as a Rooster can be is just flat wrong and is a snobbish /elitist viewpoint at best. Those suckers will slither through the grasses silently and head into the woods only flushing once they are in deep offering ZERO shot...seems rather clever to me and it will give a dog fits while he/she is learning to handle them.

PA's Pheasant program is freaking awesome!!

[Mountaineer]

Hunt club pen birds are often blinded to prevent running. A true flight pen raised bird with minimal human contact (that hasn't been blinded) will be wary and run or fly easily according to my friend that raises thousands of pheasant every year.

Your friend sounds like a good salesman....generalizing can carry a level of ignoring.
Even the best of outfits can have some clinkers for reasons well past the definition of pen-raised.

I also expect that birds differ...pheasants to quail to chukar to whatever.
Each brings something to the degree of wildness possible....that degree is likely to change with time.

[Mountaineer]

...PA's Pheasant program is freaking awesome!!

Well, it's better than many other state's release programs, for reasons beyond the birds or how they are raised....I'll say that.

Timing and location can make a difference.....the tractor comment is just more generalizing.
However, I heard a landowner made that exact tractor reference....just this season.
It can happen...even past the first day after the pheasants are raked out of the stocking trucks.

[birddog1968]

What's the difference between wild birds and stocked birds anyway? Here in PA the state puts out birds before season and during the season and supposedly those stocked birds have very little human contact and are fed somewhat wild diets. And what about the stocked birds that don't get shot and manage to survive to next hunting season, can I consider them wild birds then?

you know the best way to hunt those PA stockers....... start a tractor up and they come running.

BS

Its not BS, they feed the birds with tractors....I've seen it first hand. I am on 100's of farms in PA a year, its my job.

Im not even going to go into the subject of PA hunters....lol

I also don't quite understand on one hand PA is trying to re-establish phez but allow people to take hens???

[Tooling]

...PA's Pheasant program is freaking awesome!!

Well, it's better than many other state's release programs, for reasons beyond the birds or how they are raised....I'll say that.

Timing and location can make a difference.....the tractor comment is just more generalizing.
However, I heard a landowner made that exact tractor reference....just this season.
It can happen...even past the first day after the pheasants are raked out of the stocking trucks.

Yep...no disagreement here and you are right...that is just too general a statement is all.

What's really cool about the program is the open land available to hunt in PA offering diversity. The hunt can be whatever you want it to be. Stay on the beaten path and enjoy the opportunity to have a lot of bird contact in nice open terrain or go in deep and work your butt off to "maybe" get a bird....it is FANTASTIC for the dog!!

There are some SGL's that are stocked and are brutal to navigate. The "the path of least resistance" means that you can enjoy a hunt and virtually have the place to yourself...the birds seem to learn pretty darn quick! It is a fantastic program that covers the diversity of peoples desires wonderfully + an effort toward a wild re-population to boot. I gladly pay for an out of state license and would gladly pay for a stamp if PA wanted one.

[Mountaineer]

What's really cool about the program is the open land available to hunt in PA offering diversity. The hunt can be whatever you want it to be. Stay on the beaten path and enjoy the opportunity to have a lot of bird contact in nice open terrain or go in deep and work your butt off to "maybe" get a bird....it is FANTASTIC for the dog!!
There are some SGL's that are stocked and are brutal to navigate. The "the path of least resistance" means that you can enjoy a hunt and virtually have the place to yourself...the birds seem to learn pretty darn quick! It is a fantastic program that covers the diversity of peoples desires wonderfully + an effort toward a wild re-population to boot. I gladly pay for an out of state license and would gladly pay for a stamp if PA wanted one.

Their Gameland system and their manner of funding the PGC are the pluses that help deliver the advantages you cite.
It can be only as perfect as the hunters make it but, the opportunity is there and the dogs do benefit.
The PGC should receive more credit than many Pennsylvania hunters are willing to give.....but, too many still find Alt's wisdom rankling a bit.

[Tooling]

[/quote]
Im not even going to go into the subject of PA hunters....lol
I also don't quite understand on one hand PA is trying to re-establish phez but allow people to take hens???[/quote]



Agreed...taking Hens seems rather counter-productive toward the effort. Not all of PA is open to hens though. I pass on them and also pass on a Rooster if he is with one...just makes too much sense to do so..

Also...to all residents of PA...thank you for welcoming out-of-towners to enjoy the land

[Mountaineer]

...I also don't quite understand on one hand PA is trying to re-establish phez but allow people to take hens???

You may not understand the particulars of the pheasant areas.
Why, could be important...but, not to me.

Released Pennsylvania pheasants do survive but it is doubtful that many survive....lot of predators, winged and not.
Last Saturday, a buddy saw tracks in the snow well after the last release date as we took our dogs on several loops that day.....I suggest that ol' pheasant quickly learned that grapes and bugs and much else were good to eat...lot of soft mast this year in places.
I have also taken a commonwealth pheasant early in the release period whose breast was dwindling to nothing.
No positive to generalizing negatively....unless there is some personal kick in the ribs that needs released.

[Grange]

I never hunted pen raised birds until a few months ago. The birds i've been using stay exactly where they are planted. Does this hinder a dogs ability to trail birds? Seems like it might, but again, this is my first time using pen raised birds. I don't have enough wild birds here to do any good, so i'm pretty much limited to pen raised for training purposes.

I love a poor flying pen raised bird for training bird manners. Have a dog stand while a planted bird flushes up in the air a short distance and then lands right in front of it and then either stands there or walk around the dog. All the while the dog is standing there watching. Talk about pressure on a dog.

[DonF]

you know the best way to hunt those PA stockers....... start a tractor up and they come running.

BS

Its not BS, they feed the birds with tractors....I've seen it first hand. I am on 100's of farms in PA a year, its my job.

Im not even going to go into the subject of PA hunters....lol

I also don't quite understand on one hand PA is trying to re-establish phez but allow people to take hens???

If Pa want's to re-establish them, they need to release trapped wild birds. Problem with pen raised birds is they will not sit the nest's. Lay plenty of eggs then walk off and leave them.

[Mountaineer]

If Pa want's to re-establish them, they need to release trapped wild birds....

Some may be confusing the pheasant program and the state-released pheasant program in Pennsylvania.

The degree of CREP present gives fair odds for a fair amount of pheasant recovery....to a 70s and before harvest of 1 million or so birds?, unlikely as too much has changed.
Pheasant recovery has been tried before in Pa.....this latest looks a bit better than previous attempts and a lot of folks have put in a lot of work.
Present and earlier attempts used wild birds traded with western states.
Access in some areas will still be problematic in the Susq. drainage.

[lugmastro]

I would say that there is a huge difference between planted and wild birds. Planted quail do not react the same as wild birds. There are a lot of guys that have good dogs that struggle with wild birds here in NC. They spend too much time with planted birds, the dogs just don't seem to learn how to find wild birds. I don't know this for a fact but I wouldn't be surprised if handled birds smell drastically different than wild birds. I spend as little time as possible on planted birds. Once the dog knows what birds are, its time to get them on wild birds, that is just my opinion.

[Tooling]

As mentioned and at least in my opinion..the PA program is a good one covering many bases including a wild re-population effort...it's my understanding that the state just recently struck an agreement to receive 300 wild birds from a western state so that be good.

That said..I don't believe that is the crux of the question in this thread.

Pen raised birds for training are way different for many of the reasons already stated. Grange pointed out one of the big issues but he also pointed out how that handicap w/pen raised birds can in a sense be used as an advantage tempting the dog...not that it's a good thing but..

Pen raised birds suck start to finish but for many they are simply a reality..they are expensive, there is a lot of upkeep, and they will really hurt a dog in his training if one is not careful because they just run often times. I also believe they definitely smell different and give off gobs of scent compared to a wild bird because they have been in their own "stuff" even if their pen is loaded w/hay etc. In my limited experience I think that pen raised birds definitely have there place in the training regimen but wild birds is really where it's at. Chasing those Pheasants in PA REALLY helps my dog with very little influence if any from me..he's still got a ways to go toward learning to handle them like a champ but each and every encounter seems to make him better and better at doing so. Pigeons are the best of the bunch so far as pen raised birds are concerned. I do know of one gentlemen that will sell me Chukars that are EXCELLENT birds..but he is one out of ten suppliers so if you find good birds from somebody..do take care of them.

Another downside..your pen raised birds can become your spouses "pets"...swatting one out of the sky for Fido can inspire an unhappy home at times

[birddog1968]

Then there are the dogs that have no problem with either.....again its all about exposure and sound training and a cooperative smart animal.

[Bounty_Hunter]

I'm just happy to be able to hunt phez so close to home. From my experience over the past few years some of the stocked birds are sitting ducks for both hunters and predators, and some, not so much. I have had roosters that run all over the place and then later season had some hold so tight that my dog looked like a pro. I have even encountered some that maneuver into stacked log piles that the dog almost had to dig out, and then thinking he was on old sent I approached only to have a big rooster bust into flight and sail half a mile and out of sight. I also didn't hear anyone mention the fact that some of the stocked birds move a great distance and farms sometimes 2 or more miles out start seeing them on their properties a few weeks into stocking. I would have to agree with Mountaineer though, in that I don't think many stocked birds make it into the next season, but look at the odds. They are being released in late fall, into strange surroundings being chased by dogs and hunters and when the day settles into night being plagued by both ground dwelling and winged predators. Put those odds together with the fact that they're not wild birds and may lack better predator know how skills and its not really any surprise. Stop destroying forests and farmland and everything improves.

[DonF]

Pen raised birds just might smell a bit different than wild, poop, human scent ect. Never thought about that. But the human scent I don't worry about. Probably a bigger problem with pen raised birds is getting them into cove the wild birds use, dog's don't really learn what cover to look at. I have always though it best to get off pen raised soon as I could. But these days with bird numbers way down, to many miles to find the few found and physical limitation's of my own, it's pretty much pen raised or nothing.

[Tooling]

It's not an ez situation...that's for sure.

I've tried all sorts of stuff...ignore the use of pigeons in releases etc for a moment and let's focus on quail / chukars etc to simulate a hunt.

First and foremost the biggest hurdle for me is my dog. I can act as nonchalant as can be even going so far as concealing what we are "doing" etc by wearing plain clothes, going to a new area, no gun in sight etc etc....I wish I could read my dog as well as he can clearly read me because he always just knows. I've taken him out w/birds and no birds alike - same fields - same situations etc...doesn't matter...he's always onto me...I don't know what I do!! When he was young I could trick him by being sporadic w/the whole thing but he caught on quick.

The best I've come up with to simulate a wild deal w/quail & chukars is to leave the dog in the truck, take about a half dozen birds to the middle of a field away from trees and randomly just let them go ensuring they fly to different areas of cover, I've even had friends do it for me so the dog doesn't see me go and come back. You will lose some birds this way but ..

I'll give it about 15 minutes and then get pup....it seems to work..kinda'. I say kinda' because he just seems to make a b-line to every bird which are almost never in the same spot as they had been before...that's not to say there is no search but it sure doesn't take him long and his demeanor just seems different, not as serious. Once the birds have been found and the sequences are over he'll just run around a bit but then once we hit likely cover it's like a switch goes off and he gets serious and down to business. Guess that's a good thing but it sure is disheartening to watch him work his butt off only to come up empty all the time....he genuinely LIVES for this!!
I've done a pretty good job of making him my partner as we definitely seem to be connected during the hunt but after about an hour + of coming up empty he tends to strike out on his own a bit but will come in when I call him in. He will also give me the look and do this if I fail at my job of putting birds on the ground 2-3 times which doesn't happen often but does sometimes for one reason or the other. I've tried getting him out in front of me while I have a bag of birds throwing them randomly so he can cirle back around but he always knows and has his mug up in the bag the whole time. I'll have a partner carry the bag sometimes and that works a little better but it's still tricky because if he catches wind he'll just be all up in the bag and what not. <sigh>

There is no doubt that he associates me w/birds because if I whoa him from a distance he immediately locks up tight straight at me and I've only gone through that sequence w/an actual bird behind my back a time or two.

I'm open to all suggestions

Having no wild birds just plain sucks and it really is a drag knowing that your dog is only going to go but so far w/his abilities w/out a serious change up in lifestyle which is just not feasible sometimes...it really really sucks.

[Mountaineer]

I love a poor flying pen raised bird for training bird manners. Have a do stand while a planted bird flushes up in the air a short distance and then lands right in front of it and then either stands there or walk around the dog. All the while the dog is standing there watching. Talk about pressure on a dog.

Often, the poor-flying birds appear the same as the stronger ones.
A poor flying bird can be caught by a pup who is just shy of always holding his point...and caught in an instant.
The reality is that that measure of an instant....can make for a longer period of time in getting the pup broke away from the mouse-catching type of fun.
The difference between pressure and a bad opportunity is close.
I see no advantage to ever having the odds of a poor-flying bird to be used in training.

[Tooling]

[/quote] The reality is that that measure of an instant....can make for a longer period of time in getting the pup broke away from the mouse-catching type of fun.[/quote]

I can testify to that

[Sharon]

I never hunted pen raised birds until a few months ago. The birds i've been using stay exactly where they are planted. Does this hinder a dogs ability to trail birds? Seems like it might, but again, this is my first time using pen raised birds. I don't have enough wild birds here to do any good, so i'm pretty much limited to pen raised for training purposes.

I love a poor flying pen raised bird for training bird manners. Have a do stand while a planted bird flushes up in the air a short distance and then lands right in front of it and then either stands there or walk around the dog. All the while the dog is standing there watching. Talk about pressure on a dog.

Yes they have their place in staunching up a trained dog for tests /trials.

[birddog1968]

I always get young dogs standing first by flying pigeons from hand. This eliminates the chance bad associations happening accidently with bird scent on the ground. Then we go to pigeons in traps which eliminates any bad association with gamebirds. Once the dog is honest reliably pointing pigeons in traps then and only then will we plant gamebirds. One of the tricks of training with any method is not allowing bad habits or bad associations to ever happen in the first place.

[Grange]

I love a poor flying pen raised bird for training bird manners. Have a do stand while a planted bird flushes up in the air a short distance and then lands right in front of it and then either stands there or walk around the dog. All the while the dog is standing there watching. Talk about pressure on a dog.

Often, the poor-flying birds appear the same as the stronger ones.
A poor flying bird can be caught by a pup who is just shy of always holding his point...and caught in an instant.
The reality is that that measure of an instant....can make for a longer period of time in getting the pup broke away from the mouse-catching type of fun.
The difference between pressure and a bad opportunity is close.
I see no advantage to ever having the odds of a poor-flying bird to be used in training.

I wouldn't intentionally use a poor flying bird on a dog that does not reliably point. When a dog isn't reliably holding point I have a check cord attached because if the bird doesn't flush well I still have control on the dog. As Sharon said I like them for staunching up my Setter.

I remember when we were moving some quail on the back of a pick up truck when one got out. I was unaware that one got out and when I came out of the house my Setter cornered one I my garage and grabbed the bird. That same week there was another mishap and she got another one. It took a while to get over that setback. Funny thing was though that same year when running and hunting grouse my setter caught two grouse, but she didn't have a setback from those events.

[Mountaineer]

I wouldn't intentionally use a poor flying bird on a dog that does reliably point.

I doubt anyone would...if they knew.
Knowing is the issue.

... Funny thing was though that same year when running and hunting grouse my setter caught two grouse, but she didn't have a setback from those events.

I believe dogs often well know the difference between training fields and hunting situations.
Their experience serves them well.

[Senah]

My husband's biggest deal breaker when we started getting our GSP on birds was this: only wild. He scents the ground and air, and is fast enough that if the bird is planted or pen raised, he'll catch it. As we never want him to think that he can catch the bird, that was a serious issue. Getting him around wild birds helped up the excitement factor, and also means he has only gotten birds after they have been shot, and knows to be able to have the bird and retrieve, he has to cooperate.

We haven't had (due the above) much experience with planted or pen-raised birds. However, we can say that doing it this way has been huge for our GSP and worked out really well.