Backing/Honoring Help

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:37 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grange wrote: If the dog is not near the other dog on point then blinking wouldn't be an issue.
A blinking dog won't be near the other dog for very long - or it wouldn't be a blink. So.... non-issue.

Not necessarily true. I've seen dogs that blink basically do a circle around the dog and some will also try to go in from the other side and steal a point. If the dog's doing that then that is a distraction.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:42 pm

slistoe wrote:If you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Very typical of this forum alright - minds that are closed to all things but their own isolated experiences.

In your opinion, are ripping the bird and blinking the bird the same thing? Of course they aren't. Neither are blinking the back and refusal to back.

Refusal to back is the politically correct way to refer to a point stealer. Whether he points ahead, alongside or up the butt of the pointing dog it is still point stealing.

You still have not explained the "big difference" between refusing and blinking a back. Are you going to?

To answer your question...No they are not the same. Ripping the bird, is, ripping the bird. Blinking the bird, is, blinking the bird.

I see you now seem to agree with me that a back blinking dog is a heartbeat away from being a point stealer.

Explain what you mean with the dog that sees another dog pointing birds and "moves on away from the scene"?

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:44 pm

Grange wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Grange wrote: If the dog is not near the other dog on point then blinking wouldn't be an issue.
A blinking dog won't be near the other dog for very long - or it wouldn't be a blink. So.... non-issue.
Not necessarily true. I've seen dogs that blink basically do a circle around the dog and some will also try to go in from the other side and steal a point. If the dog's doing that then that is a distraction.

If the dog is doing that he is not blinking he is stealing.

Does a dog that blinks a bird circle around it and try to get it pointed from the other side?

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:45 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
To answer your question...No they are not the same. Ripping the bird, is, ripping the bird. Blinking the bird, is, blinking the bird.

There is your explanation. It really can't be made any simpler or plainer.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:54 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
To answer your question...No they are not the same. Ripping the bird, is, ripping the bird. Blinking the bird, is, blinking the bird.

There is your explanation. It really can't be made any simpler or plainer.

Don't you remember what you posted? You said there was a "big" difference between a dog refusing and blinking a back. What is the big difference? They are the same thing. To blink the back is to refuse to back. To refuse to back is to have blinked the back.

I'd still like to hear what you meant by the dog who sees a dog pointing birds and "moves away from the scene".

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:05 pm

Yep, there is the same difference as a bird ripper and a bird blinker.
A bird ripper smells the bird and bores in on it.
A bird blinker smells the bird and avoids (blinks) it.
A back refuser sees the dog and bores in on it.
A back blinker sees the dog and avoids (blinks) it.

What part of that do you not understand?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:07 pm

Not necessarily true. I've seen dogs that blink basically do a circle around the dog and some will also try to go in from the other side and steal a point. If the dog's doing that then that is a distraction.[/quote]
If the dog is doing that he is not blinking he is stealing.

Does a dog that blinks a bird circle around it and try to get it pointed from the other side?[/quote]

No, the dog in his example first blinks the back and then steals the point. Two bad behaviors have occurred, and like I stated earlier a dog that blinks backs is a heartbeat away from stealing point (getting in front) or getting scent (pointing along side or just behind). Both are bad behaviors and can be corrected.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:09 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Does a dog that blinks a bird circle around it and try to get it pointed from the other side?
No, the dog in his example first blinks the back and then steals the point. Two bad behaviors have occurred, and like I stated earlier a dog that blinks backs is a heartbeat away from stealing point (getting in front) or getting scent (pointing along side or just behind). Both are bad behaviors and can be corrected.

So dogs that blink birds are just a heartbeat away from ripping them?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:12 pm

slistoe wrote:Yep, there is the same difference as a bird ripper and a bird blinker.
A bird ripper smells the bird and bores in on it.
A bird blinker smells the bird and avoids (blinks) it.
A back refuser sees the dog and bores in on it.
A back blinker sees the dog and avoids (blinks) it.

What part of that do you not understand?

Your definition of a back refuser is where your misunderstanding is. Let me try to help...again:

A back refuser is just that...a back refuser. A dog that bores in on it is an untrained renegade.

A back refuses and a back blinker are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

Now, tell me more about how a dog sees another dog pointing a game bird and "moves away from the scene" ?

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:13 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
slistoe wrote:Yep, there is the same difference as a bird ripper and a bird blinker.
A bird ripper smells the bird and bores in on it.
A bird blinker smells the bird and avoids (blinks) it.
A back refuser sees the dog and bores in on it.
A back blinker sees the dog and avoids (blinks) it.

What part of that do you not understand?

Your definition of a back refuser is where your misunderstanding is. Let me try to help...again:

A back refuser is just that...a back refuser. A dog that bores in on it is an untrained renegade.

A back refuses and a back blinker are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

Now, tell me more about how a dog sees another dog pointing a game bird and "moves away from the scene" ?

Uncle.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:16 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Does a dog that blinks a bird circle around it and try to get it pointed from the other side?
No, the dog in his example first blinks the back and then steals the point. Two bad behaviors have occurred, and like I stated earlier a dog that blinks backs is a heartbeat away from stealing point (getting in front) or getting scent (pointing along side or just behind). Both are bad behaviors and can be corrected.
So dogs that blink birds are just a heartbeat away from ripping them?

No.....I'll try it again: a dog that blink BIRDS (as you now have brought up) is a dog that shys away from the bird.

What I have said now 5 times I think is that a dog that blinks a back is usually a heartbeat from one of two things: one is to steal the point (get in front of the pointing dog) or two, is that dog wants SCENT and will move along side of or slightly behind the pointing dog. I hope you now understand.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:18 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote: No.....I'll try it again: a dog that blink BIRDS (as you now have brought up) is a dog that shyster away from the bird.

What I have said now 5 times I think is that a dog that blinks a back is usually a heartbeat from one of two things: one is to steal the point (get in front of the pointing dog) or two, is that dog wants SCENT and will move along side of or slightly behind the pointing dog. I hope you now understand.

I understand you are operating from limited experience and a closed mind.
But I did call UNCLE. Aren't you supposed to quit beating me up?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:24 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote: No.....I'll try it again: a dog that blink BIRDS (as you now have brought up) is a dog that shyster away from the bird.

What I have said now 5 times I think is that a dog that blinks a back is usually a heartbeat from one of two things: one is to steal the point (get in front of the pointing dog) or two, is that dog wants SCENT and will move along side of or slightly behind the pointing dog. I hope you now understand.
I understand you are operating from limited experience and a closed mind.
But I did call UNCLE. Aren't you supposed to quit beating me up?

Your understanding of my experience and willingness to learn are incorrect. I have lots of experience and I'm willing to learn from those who make sense on this forum, of which you are not one. I'd be glad to stop responding to your posts when you stop quoting my posts and asking questions.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:39 pm

When I use the term blinking a back, I and every knowledgeable judge I know means they turn and shy away from the pointing dog, often running in fear. It is considered a flaw in trials, but since they are headed for a different zip code they are never going to steal a point.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:49 pm

Neil wrote:When I use the term blinking a back, I and every knowledgeable judge I know means they turn and shy away from the pointing dog, often running in fear. It is considered a flaw in trials, but since they are headed for a different zip code they are never going to steal a point.

I'll be "bleep". A dog sees another dog pointing birds and he runs in fear for a different zip code? Have you tried giving them the dog treats you used to get an AA FT reject renegade to foot hunt at 60 yards?

I wonder if milk bones would work.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:56 pm

You better say UNCLE now Neil. (but I will say that where you used "often" does not jive with my experience, limited as it is in relation to yours.)

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:02 pm

Don't you remember what you posted? You said there was a "big" difference between a dog refusing and blinking a back. What is the big difference? They are the same thing. To blink the back is to refuse to back. To refuse to back is to have blinked the back.

I don't believe this is worth arguing about but from my perspective there is a difference between a refusal and blinking. JMO.

Charlie

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:06 pm

birddogger wrote:
Don't you remember what you posted? You said there was a "big" difference between a dog refusing and blinking a back. What is the big difference? They are the same thing. To blink the back is to refuse to back. To refuse to back is to have blinked the back.
I don't believe this is worth arguing about but from my perspective there is a difference between a refusal and blinking. JMO.

Charlie

Care to share the difference?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:13 pm

slistoe wrote:You better say UNCLE now Neil. (but I will say that where you used "often" does not jive with my experience, limited as it is in relation to yours.)

I don't back down from bullies, particularly those that seek autonomy with screen names.

But you are right "the often in fear" is my projections, I don't know why they don't want to be anywhere near the pointing dog. I have just never seen one steal a point, how could they?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:16 pm

slistoe wrote:If you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Very typical of this forum alright - minds that are closed to all things but their own isolated experiences.

In your opinion, are ripping the bird and blinking the bird the same thing? Of course they aren't. Neither are blinking the back and refusal to back.

Refusal to back is the politically correct way to refer to a point stealer. Whether he points ahead, alongside or up the butt of the pointing dog it is still point stealing.

This is getting really silly. I have seen dogs circle a dog on point, peeking at the dog all the way . They are blinking they are not stealing the point or ripping the bird they are pretending they don't see the other dog on point. you can call it what you like. I don't get what you call blinking. What I call blinking is seeing the other dog on point and ignoring him. Some dogs get very good at this. If you don't watch closely, you might think they didn't see the pointing dog.
You are right refusal to back is pretty much a meaningless term somebody made up to cover whatever you want it to cover. When a dog sees another dog on point it should stop and stay stopped until it is sent on by it's handler, any thing else is blinking or stealing the point and either will cost you birds or cause you to fail a MH test. It is that simple.
Who has the closed mind....................Cj

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:20 pm

Neil wrote:
slistoe wrote:You better say UNCLE now Neil. (but I will say that where you used "often" does not jive with my experience, limited as it is in relation to yours.)
I don't back down from bullies, particularly those that seek autonomy with screen names.

But you are right "the often in fear" is my projections, I don't know why they don't want to be anywhere near the pointing dog. I have just never seen one steal a point, how could they?

Bully? I'm just flabbergasted at some of your posts. Any chance you live outside of Russelville? I'm thinking you've been sipping some Nuke one juice out of Lake Dardanelle by some of what I read from you.

Here's my peace offering for you:

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:39 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
birddogger wrote:
Don't you remember what you posted? You said there was a "big" difference between a dog refusing and blinking a back. What is the big difference? They are the same thing. To blink the back is to refuse to back. To refuse to back is to have blinked the back.
I don't believe this is worth arguing about but from my perspective there is a difference between a refusal and blinking. JMO.

Charlie

Care to share the difference?

Sure. To me blinking is usually a phobia or fear, if you will, of a specific object or situation and avoids that scenario by getting the heck away from it. He may have a fear of being pressured by the handler to back or even punished for not backing. In a refusal, the dog knows the pointing dog has a bird/birds pinned and ignores the pointing dog in order to get that scent and point the birds himself. This is just my view on it and like I said, I am not going to argue about it because I really don't care if others see it differently.

Charlie

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:46 pm

Neil wrote: I don't know why they don't want to be anywhere near the pointing dog.

Sometimes it is possible to know why - like the point stealer that got laid on the ground and bleeding when he tried to shoulder past the wrong dog. He was a bona-fide blinker after that.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:02 pm

Thanks for stepping up and giving your definition.

My definition of blinking a back means after seeing a dog on point, the offending dog hasn't backed/honored/pointed the dog pointing the birds. There are any number of reasons a dog doesn't honor a dog on point. Some reasons are: fear, avoidance, dominance, untrained, not genetically predisposed, wants to get in the scent cone...they're probably more reasons a dog blinks a back as well. Not trying to argue with you, probably splitting hairs anyway.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:25 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:Thanks for stepping up and giving your definition.

My definition of blinking a back means after seeing a dog on point, the offending dog hasn't backed/honored/pointed the dog pointing the birds. There are any number of reasons a dog doesn't honor a dog on point. Some reasons are: fear, avoidance, dominance, untrained, not genetically predisposed, wants to get in the scent cone...they're probably more reasons a dog blinks a back as well. Not trying to argue with you, probably splitting hairs anyway.

I agree.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:34 pm

I do not accept the peace offering.

In my experience you do not disrespect others with name calling and expect to be forgiven by a feeble attempt at humor. It will take true contrition. Not that I care.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:48 pm

Neil wrote:I do not accept the peace offering.

In my experience you do not disrespect others with name calling and expect to be forgiven by a feeble attempt at humor. It will take true contrition. Not that I care.

If this has anything to do with my post, I was not arguing and was not called any names or argued with or disrespected. I don't always succeed but I try to treat others as I would like to be treated. Most of the time, to receive respect, you have to give it. I respect your experience and knowledge but IMO, you always want to play devil's advocate and most of the time void of any respect for anybody else or their opinions, experience, training methods, or anything else that is different than yours.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:28 pm

Charlie,

It had nothing to do with you, I respect your positiion, sorry I was not clearier.

It was directed to Grousehunter, who does not seem to even know the golden rule, let alone practice it.

I would like to get back on topic.

Neil

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:33 pm

Neil wrote:Charlie,

It had nothing to do with you, I respect your positiion, sorry I was not clearier.

It was directed to Grousehunter, who does not seem to even know the golden rule, let alone practice it.

I would like to get back on topic.

Neil

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Charlie

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:33 am

Neil wrote:I do not accept the peace offering.

In my experience you do not disrespect others with name calling and expect to be forgiven by a feeble attempt at humor. It will take true contrition. Not that I care.

Neil wrote:Charlie,

It had nothing to do with you, I respect your positiion, sorry I was not clearier.

It was directed to Grousehunter, who does not seem to even know the golden rule, let alone practice it.

I would like to get back on topic.

Neil

Boy, that's not very nice. A Razorback hat and a grouse isn't a good enough peace offering for you?

Sorry to hurt your feelings. As others have pointed out, I too have noticed you give out your opinions as if they were fact; and the truth of the matter is I felt obligated to point it out to spare the newbie trainers a lot of grief.

I mean come on....it's no help to anybody who might actually believe your fable that at age 16 you took a renegade AA FT reject, turned him into a 60 yard foot hunting dog by taking it in your bedroom and feeding it treats in the hunting field.

In this thread you said: "I have never seen one steal a point". Yet you and every FT judge you know see a dog that blinks a back: "often running in fear heading for a different zip code"? Personally I don't know what type of field trial you are judging having entries with such dogs like that, but I don't really keep up with what all is out there either.

Again, sorry I hurt your feelings, Neil. I do agree with the gentleman above who gave you the advice that to receive respect, you have to give it. That's good advice for all of us. The next time I'll try to be more "politically correct" for you.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:36 am

Grousehunter,

You did not hurt my feelings, I was just pointing out the total lack civility in many of your posts. You lack manners to the degree you don't even know how to apologize. But since I don't value your opinion, you cannot hurt me.

Back to the topic, a dog that blinks backs is rare, it is rarer sill to observe it in a trial, tthatt is why it must be distinguished from a failure to back.

As for my credibility, I will leave it for others to judge the value of my opinions. And yes, I most certainly did train an A-A to stay close enough to hunt at 16, but I had been breaking horses for some years my then.

May we please get back to dogs?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:03 am

Hey, if you say it's important for you to distinguish that a dog fails to back or a dog blinks a back when you judge your trials, and you know for certain why it occurred, then so be it.

Any trial I have ever been a part of makes no distinction. If a dog sees another dog on point, does not honor that dog....it's a problem. There isn't a need to split hairs in those trials. It's a fault and you're usually out of it if backing is a component.

As far as training, like I have said in an earlier post, there are a variety of reasons why an offending dog hasn't backed a dog on point. It's at that point I think the trainer needs to figure out the root cause of the dog blinking. There may be more reasons, but like I said these come to mind and if one knows how, are all easily corrected: fear, avoidance, dominance, untrained, not genetically predisposed, wants the scent etc...

As far as hunting, like many others have said, your hunting experience is greatly enhanced by having dogs that honor one another's points. When a dog blinks a back it's an indication that a bigger infraction is just around the corner.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:30 pm

Thank youu for getttiing backk on topic, even though all of your oobjectiions have been countered, Ii will tryy agaiin.

1. Blinking a back or the handler avoiding a back is an infrraction, but does not requuire a pckup, only interference does.

2. Many times the dog does it to the front, out of the judges' view. And when in viiew they do it at range and without looking at the pointing dog. So the judges have no proof

3. To further coompplicate the matter, I have seen the same dog be forced into a back by coming around an obstacle and do it properly. So the judges have reason for more doubt.

4. I have seen it dog specific, there are some dogs that they just don't want to back.

5. In hunting, I think it improper, but I have never seen it lead to problems and don't see how could. It really is, as has been said by Mr. Listo, thinking a dog that blinks birds iis going too start knocking them.

6. A dog that steal point, does just that, sees a dog on point and goes to the biirds, eitther directtly or circuitously, but refuuses to back. Oh, and somettimes tthey don'tt even seem to know the dog is poiinting and juust mills around. And allthough not interference yet, I wiill uusuallly pick tthe dog up.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:55 pm

One of the great things from forums such as this is the ability to expand our knowledge and experience beyond that which would be possible within our own little shell of existence. Some folks take advantage of that opportunity, and some believe that this is the place to hammer their shell around all others.

I will repeat - Dogs seeing another dog on point can honour, steal, or blink. They are each distinctly different actions. This is not an opinion, it is information for those folks who would care to learn so that they may communicate more effectively within the circle of pointing dog folk. A blinking dog will not steal point, nor is he at high risk of inadvertently flushing birds. Dogs that get good at it very rarely ever get caught doing it.

I will agree with Grousehunter123 on the aesthetics of the hunt - a dog that honours enhances the ethereal quality of the hunt greatly.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:29 pm

Even though myy opinion on backing has beeen quuoted "No dog has ever won a field trial standing arrouund watching another dog point". I still think a classy back a thing of beauty. The most exquisite sight I have ever behelld in a trial was at the 2003 NC, recovering from surgery I was in the road gallery. I got to Prospect Church a full 15 minutes ahead of the handlers to see High Plains Drifter on point, a short time later Richie's setter came into the bottom of the field, a full 200 yards from Drfter and went into a most stylish back. Head and tail high, with pride and the wind blowing his featherring. I got to watch as the rest of the road gallery arrived for at least 10 minutes before first Billy Blackwell and then Richie came into sight. There they smartly waited the judge's arrival so they would know the dogs did it on their own.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:34 pm

Slistoe,

"A blinking dog will not steal point, nor is he at high risk of inadvertently flushing birds.".

Actually that's not correct. A dog that after seeing another dog pointing, hasn't backed that dog (call it whatever makes you happy) goes on to a variety of things. That dog may seek to steal point (get in front of pointing dog). That dog may seek to get the sent of bird (pointing beside or slightly behind pointing dog). That dog may continue hunting. In all cases the risk is high for flushing birds.

"Dogs that get good at it (blinking backs) very rarely get caught doing it".

Maybe you're not able to catch your dogs doing it but I sure can. I suspect lots of readers on this forum also are able to catch their dogs blinking backs WELL BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND. I would be glad to let you know the signs of a dog blinking a back if you need.

Like I stated in my first post on this thread. I have a young dog that blinked/refused to back. Her goal was to get in the scent of the bird. I whoa break my dogs obsessively, and she is. In a wild bird hunting senario I whoa her when she can see my other dog pointing. After 8-10 of these situations she learned what I wanted and at 8 months she now backs reliably. My dogs and I were filmed in an episode of a hunting show and you can see for yourself my young dog backing my older dog pointing ruffed grouse. PM me for the link if you'd like.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:10 pm

I really do give up.

It is not a matter of calling it whatever we want.

"Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:28 pm

Neil wrote:I really do give up.

It is not a matter of calling it whatever we want.

"Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term.

The weird thing is that he is not consistent - he uses blinking in its proper definition in regards to birds.

Didn't I tell you to call UNCLE way back.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:54 pm

slistoe wrote:
Neil wrote:I really do give up.

It is not a matter of calling it whatever we want.

"Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term.
The weird thing is that he is not consistent - he uses blinking in its proper definition in regards to birds.

Didn't I tell you to call UNCLE way back.

I should have listened

It must be a learning disability thing.

UNCLE.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:00 pm

Neil wrote:I really do give up.

It is not a matter of calling it whatever we want.

"Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term.

For gosh sakes, don't give up.

This is an open forum with hundreds of folks who might not say things the exact same way that you do. You are assuming we all do. If there is "an accepted, defined" definition for "blinking a back" then by all means please copy and paste a link to said terminology publication and then we can all be on the same page. Short of that, you just need to be tolerant of other folks opinions and definitions. We all come from different backgrounds.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:13 pm

Grousehunter,

Say you have a project due at work today, but since the snow has melted and it's 50* outdoors you decide to call in sick. Then you go to Walmart to pick up a carton of Diet Coke and a bag of Doritos. You're just turning into the chips aisle when you spot your boss's secretary there looking for a bag of snacks. Ruh Roh!

To avoid getting into trouble you can just duck back into the beverages aisle before the secretary spots you. You just blinked a confrontation!

Or, you can defiantly just march right past her and maybe even grab a bag of Sour Cream and Onion Lays right out from in front of her and pretend not to see her. You just refused an honor!

Of course you could have done like your Mama trained you to do, and sheepishly just acknowledged the secretary and said "Excuse me" as you sidled past, and take whatever was coming to you at work the next day.

See, there is a big difference between blinking and refusing.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:57 pm

shags wrote:Grousehunter,

Say you have a project due at work today, but since the snow has melted and it's 50* outdoors you decide to call in sick. Then you go to Walmart to pick up a carton of Diet Coke and a bag of Doritos. You're just turning into the chips aisle when you spot your boss's secretary there looking for a bag of snacks. Ruh Roh!

To avoid getting into trouble you can just duck back into the beverages aisle before the secretary spots you. You just blinked a confrontation!

Or, you can defiantly just march right past her and maybe even grab a bag of Sour Cream and Onion Lays right out from in front of her and pretend not to see her. You just refused an honor!

Of course you could have done like your Mama trained you to do, and sheepishly just acknowledged the secretary and said "Excuse me" as you sidled past, and take whatever was coming to you at work the next day.

See, there is a big difference between blinking and refusing.

Sorry, I never worked on Sunday. I'm retired. I don't eat or drink junk food. If I can, I avoid Walmart. And yes, my Mom had her hands full raising me.

If you are saying there are different causes/reasons a dog has not backed a dog on point, then I continue to agree. In fact on three occasions I listed not all, but several causes/reasons.

If you are saying that people may have different meanings for different words, then I continue to agree. In fact birddogger presented his definitions very informatively.

If you too are saying there is one standard, acceptable vocabulary list of upland gun dog hunting terminology, then please, go ahead and copy & paste a link to the publication, as I have yet to see one from Neil.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:57 pm

Here you are...look on page 63. It's a fairly comprehensive compilation. But I'll put a handful of dog biscuits on a bet that you'll somehow find fault with it.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RFTPNT.pdf

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:14 pm

shags wrote:Here you are...look on page 63. It's a fairly comprehensive compilation. But I'll put a handful of dog biscuits on a bet that you'll somehow find fault with it.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RFTPNT.pdf

Neil said this: "Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term".

I said this: "If there is "an accepted, defined" definition for "blinking a back" then by all means please copy and paste a link to said terminology publication and then we can all be on the same page"

I looked on page 63 and I see no term titled "Blinking a Back".

You basically proved my point.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:30 pm

Shags,
I'm not sure why you want to continue this foolishness as Neil and Slistoe both have ceased.

The definition they gave of "Blinking a Back" several posts ago was: "When I use the term blinking a back...means they turn and shy away from the pointing dog, often running in fear.....since they are headed for a different zip code they are never going to steal a point".

I could not care less if that's how they define blinking a back for their own application. I do care when they force their unconventional definition on me when they are directly posting to me as has been done.

If they want to continue this discussion, and it seems that they (and I) do not; I have a feeling they don't need your involvement.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:05 pm

Unconventional???
You are a self absorbed individual, aren't you.
Tell you what, why don't you provide a written definition yourself?
I have one published in 1977 - you trump me and I will look for another.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:13 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:If you too are saying there is one standard, acceptable vocabulary list of upland gun dog hunting terminology, then please, go ahead and copy & paste a link to the publication, as I have yet to see one from Neil.

Gave you what you asked for.

But OK. You win.

Have a good one.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:25 pm

Against my better judgement, here goes - although I didn't search, I know not everything is defined on the internet for cutting and pasting. At leasst not yet. And I doubt you will find definitions for delayed chase, or even marked bird, or perhaps even head trailing or self-relocation. All long established terms defined in old books and our oral tradition.

But the whole thing is petty and proves nothing. Certainly does not contribute to the discussion.

UNCLE!

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:40 pm

slistoe wrote:Unconventional???
You are a self absorbed individual, aren't you.
Tell you what, why don't you provide a written definition yourself?
I have one published in 1977 - you trump me and I will look for another.

Yes, I certainly do consider it an "unconventional definition" of BLINKING A BACK when it is portrayed to mean:
"When I use the term blinking a back...means they turn and shy away from the pointing dog, often running in fear.....since they are headed for a different zip code they are never going to steal a point".

In fact, I cannot really conceive of the example of this in the context of judging field trials, as Neil relayed in his post. I'm not sure what type of trial would have dogs running in fear when they see another dog pointing game birds. So yes, I consider it an unconventional definition of "blinking a back".

Calling me self absorbed may be a forum violation of which I will defer to the moderators.

My definition? I've already given it. I'm not looking to trump you. Use whatever you published in 1997 for whatever your purposes are.

I'll take it you aren't able to back up what Neil said? ("Blinking a Back" is an accepted, defined term").

I suppose you too have struck out with my challenge to put up or shut up by providing documentation of--- "an accepted, defined" definition for "blinking a back" then by all means please copy and paste a link to said terminology publication and then we can all be on the same page"?

If you're able to provide a standard vocabulary terminology that supports Neil's definition, I'm open to modify my definition if the source is credible.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:58 pm

Neil wrote:Against my better judgement, here goes - although I didn't search, I know not everything is defined on the internet for cutting and pasting. At leasst not yet. And I doubt you will find definitions for delayed chase, or even marked bird, or perhaps even head trailing or self-relocation. All long established terms defined in old books and our oral tradition.

But the whole thing is petty and proves nothing. Certainly does not contribute to the discussion.

UNCLE!

Neil,

Birddogger gave a very nice working definition outlining his definition distinguishing between "blinking a back" and "refusing a back". If you care to go back up a few posts and look it up you will discover that we both agreed we are probably splitting hairs and it's irrelevant. You, Sisltoe, and now shags have turned this debacle into a vocabulary test.

It's funny that if you go up to page one I agreed with how you train for backing which is what the OP asked about. I'm sitting here snowed in, I'd rather be working my dogs than in a pissing match but I can't get out. What's your excuse down in Central Arkansas?