Gun Dog Forum

What is the best way to teach a dog to back/honor?

I have no idea. I only know what I do.
I plant a bird up over the top of the hill. I send a trained dog on . Wait. I know that dog will be on a staunch point. The learner can't see anything. I bring the learner up the hill on a not too short leash. The second we see the dog on point I whoa my learner. Someone else flushes the bird for the on point dog ( a launcher would also work nicely). I staunch up the learner. 10 +- times in different locations ( hills , around corners etc.) and the job is done. Move on to several birds flushing to increase the temptation too.

Works for me.

A friend and I were recently teaching his dog to honor the same way Sharon described except we were on flat ground and usedthe cover to block the line of sight of the dog being trained until it passes the cover. We also used a tethered pigeon and fired a gun when it reached the end of the string.

George Hickox said to always put a bird in the air for backing drills so the dog associates the act of honoring with a bird.

Another important point about teaching backing is to set the drill up in such as manner that the dog being trained is always upwind and never whiffs the bird or other dog. You're teaching the dog to point on sight only and showing the dog a "picture", then physically making the dog stop and stand. If you have handled your dog on point throughout its training, you can "brush-up" the point after the dog is stopping on its own.

I use a launcher. Put a finished dog on a bird out of sight then bring in the young dog. Soon as I believe the young one see's the dog on back, I pop the bird. Doesn't usually take to many rep's and it's done. Also have a silhouette around here somewhere.

I run my dog's backing drills with a remote control pop-up silhouette since she had already been trained to back/honor on a live dog usually with multiple launchers. The method I described with a tethered bird was when I was out of town and my friend didn't have a launcher. It can be done without a launcher, but it's tougher and requires at least two people.

I need to find a GSP to teach my dog to back them. She won't honor a GSP (understandable). Besides, she usually finds the birds first. I don't think she ever was taught to back a short tail dog.

I use the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVD system - multiple birds thrown in front of the pointing dog while the backing dog is whoa'd. Like 3 -4 birds so the dog starts associating the backing with birds. This works best if the backing dog has a good grasp of the whoa concept. The bird thrower is hiding behind a bush or brush or over the hill so the dog doesn't see that person.

I usually do it the first time , when I am roading the dog on foot. The dog is in a harness and is attached to me via a weightlifter's belt.

I have a silhouette placed along the route and a loaded launcher, or two. The dog is physically attached to me, so that makes compliance fairly simple. If the dog does not stop on sight, I will pop a bird, stop the dog and then set it back. I will then whoa the dog, get myself out of the harness and then walk in front of the dog. I will pop the second bird fairly quickly because I want the dog to succeed. I then lay down the silhouette, heel the dog away and continue roading. In later sessions I will make more extensive flushing attempts and add temptations, such as hand thrown pigeons.

As Don said, a dozen or so sessions and the dog usually gets the idea pretty well. Be advised, some dogs do HATE to back because they want to be firstest, so they may take some convincing.

RayG

I echo what many have written. My setter isn't a natural backer so I tried different things. What ended up working for me was using a remote backing dog, bird launcher and pigeons. I planted the launcher with the pigeon in an area where I know my setter would see the backing dog before she could scent the bird. I also made sure that she wouldn't see the dog from across the field. I wanted her to see all the action. I had the remote dog down and sent the setter past and then work toward the remote dog and bird from up wind. I'd raise the backing dog before my setter was in the area and as soon as I was sure she saw the backing dog I'd launch the pigeon. After about two days of 3 pigeons each day she was backing on her own. I think the hardest part for me with these drills was being sure my setter saw the dog.

Once I felt confident that she was backing on her own I didn't launch the bird right away. Instead I walked up to the backing dog and mocked a flush before I launched the bird. After she was reliable with this I moved on to using a real dog and the transition was basically seamless. My setter won't be the best backer as far as slamming a back like some dogs I know, but she will stop. In my opinion if I have to say whoa even softly before the dog stops then I don't consider that a back.

As far as I am concerned an honoured point is when a dog does a sight point on a dog that is scent pointing. I must have been lucky, the brittanies and GSP's I trained began by moving in on the scent pointing dog for the first few birds but very quickly began to back that dog with no training at all from me. I'd always thought the way my dogs learned to back was an extension of the way dogs learn to point by bumping birds. They know birds fly away at too close an approach, they see a dog pointing, learn "the hard way" that if they steal that point the birds are likely to fly off so when in the future they see a pointing dog they back it "naturally."

I have no idea if I am right about this but it works fine for me.

Bill T.

I have never had to specifcally train for it. I just work two dogs in the bird field, one points the other is whoaed into a back. Then repeat. I have not had a dog in 30 years that acted like it wanted to back. It might be my fault in how I train. The last 3 would blink a back at 300 yards, and only do so when they have to.

Neil wrote:I have never had to specifcally train for it. I just work two dogs in the bird field, one points the other is whoaed into a back. Then repeat. I have not had a dog in 30 years that acted like it wanted to back. It might be my fault in how I train. The last 3 would blink a back at 300 yards, and only do so when they have to.

That's what I do for ones that like to steal points too. The key is to have the young prospect dead whoa broke and whoa them into a back. I have one right now that was a stinker about it but now knows what is expected by me and she willingly backs at "range" wild bird hunting. Took 8-10 times and she got it.

I do basically what Don mentioned above. Whether it is a silhouette or a dog, i bring the "learner" in and pop the bird on first sight...by now all the dogs are stop to flush broke and they should stop at the flush. If they do not i back up. In a repetitions the dog cues in that a bird will flush if they do not honor the standing dog...they generally style up nicely

roaniecowpony wrote:I run my dog's backing drills with a remote control pop-up silhouette since she had already been trained to back/honor on a live dog usually with multiple launchers. The method I described with a tethered bird was when I was out of town and my friend didn't have a launcher. It can be done without a launcher, but it's tougher and requires at least two people.

I need to find a GSP to teach my dog to back them. She won't honor a GSP (understandable). Besides, she usually finds the birds first. I don't think she ever was taught to back a short tail dog.

...................

Yep. Mine is not consistent on backing a Brit. She looks at me and says, " Well. Is he on point or not?"

I train stop to flush first as it makes backing real quick and easy. Then pretty much what the others do with launchers and a broke dog where the backing dog comes in unexpectedly and sees the pointing dog. I want dogs backing as far away as they can see the pointing dog.
Birddog 307

Not a fan of a silhouettes. If you hunt a dog with others, I think they just figure it out on their own.

Bluesky2012 wrote:Not a fan of a silhouettes. If you hunt a dog with others, I think they just figure it out on their own.

Sometimes and sometimes not.

Charlie

Grousehunter123 wrote:

Neil wrote:I have never had to specifcally train for it. I just work two dogs in the bird field, one points the other is whoaed into a back. Then repeat. I have not had a dog in 30 years that acted like it wanted to back. It might be my fault in how I train. The last 3 would blink a back at 300 yards, and only do so when they have to.

That's what I do for ones that like to steal points too. The key is to have the young prospect dead whoa broke and whoa them into a back. I have one right now that was a stinker about it but now knows what is expected by me and she willingly backs at "range" wild bird hunting. Took 8-10 times and she got it.

I tried that technique with my setter and it didn't work well for me. My setter is whoa broke so when I would whoa her after I knew she saw the dog on point she would stop. I thought she would make the association with stopping and the dog on point, but I don't think it worked out that way. After doing this for a while she still wasn't backing reliably. She would on occasion still go in and try to steal point on if I didn't give the whoa command. That is why when I see someone whoa a dog into a back I am not convinced that dog is really backing, but rather complying with the whoa command.

Sharon wrote:

roaniecowpony wrote:I run my dog's backing drills with a remote control pop-up silhouette since she had already been trained to back/honor on a live dog usually with multiple launchers. The method I described with a tethered bird was when I was out of town and my friend didn't have a launcher. It can be done without a launcher, but it's tougher and requires at least two people.

I need to find a GSP to teach my dog to back them. She won't honor a GSP (understandable). Besides, she usually finds the birds first. I don't think she ever was taught to back a short tail dog.

...................

Yep. Mine is not consistent on backing a Brit. She looks at me and says, " Well. Is he on point or not?"

I've heard that with other dogs. Lucky for me I regularly train with brittanies so my setter knows how to back to a dog with a cropped tail.

My dog has the same perspective I have: how can you tell?

Regarding silhouettes, I think they work fine if the dog was taught using a live dog and the falsie is just used to reinforce.

Grange wrote:

Grousehunter123 wrote:

Neil wrote:I have never had to specifcally train for it. I just work two dogs in the bird field, one points the other is whoaed into a back. Then repeat. I have not had a dog in 30 years that acted like it wanted to back. It might be my fault in how I train. The last 3 would blink a back at 300 yards, and only do so when they have to.

That's what I do for ones that like to steal points too. The key is to have the young prospect dead whoa broke and whoa them into a back. I have one right now that was a stinker about it but now knows what is expected by me and she willingly backs at "range" wild bird hunting. Took 8-10 times and she got it.

I tried that technique with my setter and it didn't work well for me. My setter is whoa broke so when I would whoa her after I knew she saw the dog on point she would stop. I thought she would make the association with stopping and the dog on point, but I don't think it worked out that way. After doing this for a while she still wasn't backing reliably. She would on occasion still go in and try to steal point on if I didn't give the whoa command. That is why when I see someone whoa a dog into a back I am not convinced that dog is really backing, but rather complying with the whoa command.

I agree that whoa into a point is not backing. It's one method (of several) of training a puppy what you want done. If a puppy is biddable, as mine is, it gets the connection. If as in your case the dog does not get the connection then there are other methods to try. My two dogs and I were filmed for a episode of a ruffed grouse hunting trip this past season. In it you can see my young puppy that was just getting the light to come on relative to backing by the method I explained I use. This was a wild ruffed grouse / woodcock hunt and it shows her backing without being told whoa. However, like I explained, that is (whoa into a back) how I taught her to back as she was a rascal and stole points until she learned what I wanted. PM me if you want the link.

Stealing point is rude bahavior in a dog, I will not tolerate it.

Blinking a back is not good, but not nearly as bad.

Neil wrote:Stealing point is rude bahavior in a dog, I will not tolerate it.

Blinking a back is not good, but not nearly as bad.

Couldn't agree more; that's why I train it out, and/or let the pup know what I want and reward when "the light goes on".

Let the backing dog get a retrieve once in a while.

Charlie

I do what Donf does and reward like birddogger does.

Neil wrote:Stealing point is rude bahavior in a dog, I will not tolerate it.

Blinking a back is not good, but not nearly as bad.

What harm comes from blinking a back?

For me, it's a safety issue - you're shooting a bird (often with new hunters or kids - at least in the things I do) with a brown dog running around not backing and still hunting. My Vizsla almost got shot this season by experienced hunters because he was way down the fencerow while we were flushing birds close to us. Lucky the shooter saw him at the absolute last second.


I love to see a good back!

slistoe wrote:

Neil wrote:Stealing point is rude bahavior in a dog, I will not tolerate it.

Blinking a back is not good, but not nearly as bad.

What harm comes from blinking a back?

Some judges deem it a demerit, seen dogs picked up for it, usually because the handler was vocal in participating. My oldest dog is so good at that even the judges that suspected him of it, had no proof. He would often skirt the pointing dog and hit the front, never looking at the dog. Interesting he would let another dog steal his points.

Avoiding a back is mentioned the AKC Rules and the AFTCA Guidelines in a negative way.

And if your hunting it means killing maybe 1-2 roosters verse 0

Im a firm believer that honoring another dog on point is not a natural behavior for bird dogs. I had the opportunity to train with a professional dog handler in az. 10 out of 10 dogs that he breaks all honor / back on site. Mainly because as others have described, this trainer will teach a pup by association. He will run the pup about 40 hards behind a broke dog on a check cord. Once the broke dog has established point he will bring the pup towards the dog on point. As soon as that pup notices the pointing dog on point he will stop the pup. This is done for at least a months time. Dogs learn by association. Like I said I have never seen one of his client dogs not honor another dog on point.

I don't mean for this to sound rude Upland Point, but you're mistaken. There are plenty of dogs that are natural backers, and because of their personality, backing another dog IS natural for them. They are sometimes softer dogs that "have a lot of point" in them. The dog in my avatar is like that. One setter I recall a friend having years ago you could not get that dog to move once he saw another dog on point no matter how far away.

I have seen a lot of dogs over the years that have backed naturally. I have seen pointer puppys back each other at 10 wks. old.

Charlie

Neil wrote:

slistoe wrote:

Neil wrote:Stealing point is rude bahavior in a dog, I will not tolerate it.

Blinking a back is not good, but not nearly as bad.

What harm comes from blinking a back?

Some judges deem it a demerit, seen dogs picked up for it, usually because the handler was vocal in participating. My oldest dog is so good at that even the judges that suspected him of it, had no proof. He would often skirt the pointing dog and hit the front, never looking at the dog. Interesting he would let another dog steal his points.

Avoiding a back is mentioned the AKC Rules and the AFTCA Guidelines in a negative way.

Yes, I know how it is regarded in a trial setting. I had a dog with 14 points and no recorded back. She was never picked up for blinking a back, but I couldn't even force her into one. When you are hunting your dog what harm comes from blinking a back? I never saw a down side.

All of our puppies back naturally, some of the more aggressive ones tend to quit as they get older and need to be trained. Backing is a natural trait which I think goes back to the day when dogs had to hunt to eat. The dog that scared away dinner probably became dinner.
Dogs which blink the honor are generally softer dogs. If it is harmful depends on what the dogs do after the blink.
Training we use a bird in a launcher and a cutout or a reliable dog set up where the dog being trained comes on it by surprise. The dog will almost always stop if not he is whoaed. Launch the bird, shoot some, sometimes let the honoring dog retrieve as a reward if he is steady, don't shoot if he is not.
When dogs are hunted in packs They all seem to honor naturally. At least mine do. If not it is chaos. I hate dogs that don't honor. I like to see a reining horse stop when they see a dog on point............................Cj

Slistoe:

Like I said above - there can be harm. You've got shooters and a dog running around in the fencerow....I almost had my Vizsla shot this year the last day of the season. If I had called him in he would have backed, but I wasn't worried about him. Won't make that mistake again. I've had multiple situations like that when I hunt with more than one dog - backing can be a real safety issue for the dog - we almost got a pointer shot this year by a newer hunter because she wasn't in on the point and when the bird flushed, she was coming over the hill directly towards the flushing bird. The bird veered off just in time, shooter shot the bird not 5 yards from the dog. He was new and I bet if he had a bead on that bird 5 seconds sooner, he would have shot that dog in the face.

If my second dog was that close to the action and did not stop on their own I would simply give them a whoa - then they are stopped. Many times I would caution a dog into a whoa to keep them out of the action before they had a chance to see the pointing dog on their own and back proper. The blinking dog is not causing any problem with flushing birds prematurely or with a safety issue, etc because they are not there - they are hunting for more birds somewhere else.

The safety issue is that they're not there and backing....they are out there hunting, sometimes in the direction of the shot. Two close calls this year is enough to make me re-think letting the others hunt while we're flushing and shooting birds elsewhere.

To me in a hunting situation if a dog blinks a back it is distracting when hunting. God knows I have a hard enough time hitting a grouse when I'm fully focused so the distraction makes it even harder.

If the dog is close enough to potentially be in harms way, it is close enough to be stopped with a whoa regardless of whether it has seen or is aware of the other dog pointing. For a dog that is a true blinker this in unlikely - the dog will be hunting his own ground. As for the distraction - the dog is either stopped because I told them or they are hunting somewhere else and what is that as a concern to me? If they find birds they will be pointing them still when I get there, if they don't I will pick up where the dog is working when I am done with the shooting. Really, a dog that is hunting does not require my undivided attention.
But if that is your reality, hunt accordingly. Just don't try to make it the dogs problem.

slistoe wrote:If the dog is close enough to potentially be in harms way, it is close enough to be stopped with a whoa regardless of whether it has seen or is aware of the other dog pointing. For a dog that is a true blinker this in unlikely - the dog will be hunting his own ground. As for the distraction - the dog is either stopped because I told them or they are hunting somewhere else and what is that as a concern to me? If they find birds they will be pointing them still when I get there, if they don't I will pick up where the dog is working when I am done with the shooting. Really, a dog that is hunting does not require my undivided attention.
But if that is your reality, hunt accordingly. Just don't try to make it the dogs problem.

If the dog is not near the other dog on point then blinking wouldn't be an issue. If one has to whoa a dog in order to back that is a distraction and one I don't want to worry about..

Grange wrote: If the dog is not near the other dog on point then blinking wouldn't be an issue.

A blinking dog won't be near the other dog for very long - or it wouldn't be a blink. So.... non-issue.

I agree while hunting it is a non-issue.

Blinking is definitely a issue while hunting. The blinking dog can easily accidentally flush the bird or get in the shooting lane. When hunting with multiple dogs it is a recipe for disaster. Plus it is a distraction when you go to flush the bird and you don't know where the other dogs are. Good backs are beautiful and add to the hunting experience. Blinking dogs are rude and a pia. They can't live in my kennel................CJ

cjhills wrote:Blinking is definitely a issue while hunting. The blinking dog can easily accidentally flush the bird or get in the shooting lane. When hunting with multiple dogs it is a recipe for disaster. Plus it is a distraction when you go to flush the bird and you don't know where the other dogs are. Good backs are beautiful and add to the hunting experience. Blinking dogs are rude and a pia. They can't live in my kennel................CJ

Agreed.

Dogs that blink backs are usually just a heartbeat away from being "closet point stealers". I cannot think of one example where it would NOT matter if one dog was on point and another was in close proximity still hunting. If you have your dog dead whoa broke, you can teach a dog to back. I suspect many folks can whoa their dog in the backyard, but in the field the dog disobeys. That dog ain't whoa broke and it's your fault.

Whoa break your dog, train it to back and the hunt is that much more enjoyable.

cjhills wrote:Blinking is definitely a issue while hunting. The blinking dog can easily accidentally flush the bird or get in the shooting lane. When hunting with multiple dogs it is a recipe for disaster. Plus it is a distraction when you go to flush the bird and you don't know where the other dogs are. Good backs are beautiful and add to the hunting experience. Blinking dogs are rude and a pia. They can't live in my kennel................CJ

Sorry, a blinking dog cannot accidentally flush the bird - the blinking dog is nowhere near the dog. It is blinking - it is leaving the situation.
When hunting with two dogs down I would be wasting a considerable amount of time if I waited for the other dog to show up every time one of them went on point. The vast majority of dogs we hunt will back but we rarely have a point and a back - the two dogs are hunting independently over their own ground. Where and what the other dog is doing while I go in to flush is not a concern for me - the dog is hunting like it is supposed to. Where is the distraction in that?
Anyway, if you don't want a blinking dog in the hunting field that is fine, but it isn't a problem with the dogs or the birds.

Now if you have a dog that steals point.... FIX IT or leave it home.

slistoe wrote:

cjhills wrote:Blinking is definitely a issue while hunting. The blinking dog can easily accidentally flush the bird or get in the shooting lane. When hunting with multiple dogs it is a recipe for disaster. Plus it is a distraction when you go to flush the bird and you don't know where the other dogs are. Good backs are beautiful and add to the hunting experience. Blinking dogs are rude and a pia. They can't live in my kennel................CJ

Sorry, a blinking dog cannot accidentally flush the bird - the blinking dog is nowhere near the dog. It is blinking - it is leaving the situation.
When hunting with two dogs down I would be wasting a considerable amount of time if I waited for the other dog to show up every time one of them went on point. The vast majority of dogs we hunt will back but we rarely have a point and a back - the two dogs are hunting independently over their own ground. Where and what the other dog is doing while I go in to flush is not a concern for me - the dog is hunting like it is supposed to. Where is the distraction in that?
Anyway, if you don't want a blinking dog in the hunting field that is fine, but it isn't a problem with the dogs or the birds.

Now if you have a dog that steals point.... FIX IT or leave it home.

Here is a situation: I'm hunting usually with four dogs, but the number makes no difference. Dog no.1 is on point where dog no.2,3,or 4 can't see it. Dog no. 2 comes over a hill or from behind a bush or whatever ignores the pointing dog and runs thru the bird. He is not stealing the point. He didn't smell the bird. He is accidentally flushing the bird because he didn't back.
Why do you assume the second dog will be too far away to be involve in the point? Don't your dogs ever come within sight of each other? If that would be the case he couldn't blink the honor in the first place. Unless blinking means something different to you then it does to me. He can't blink the point if he can't see it
WE don't wait for the dog to come back to see the dog on point, but if he does I want him to hit the skids if he it at twenty yards or 300 yards, Anything less to me is poorly train dog who will cost you birds. It is absolutely a problem with dogs on birds.....................Cj

If he can't see the dog to blink it, he wouldn't see the dog to back it. My dogs will back if forced into it, by coming over a hill or around thick cover, without cautioning, but they don't like it. They will also back a situation, without seeing the dog. They seem to know if horses are standing arouund or if I am going to flush they ought to stop and watch. And rather than steal point, he allowe his to be stolen, remaining steady.

Neil wrote:If he can't see the dog to blink it, he wouldn't see the dog to back it. My dogs will back if forced into it, by coming over a hill or around thick cover, without cautioning, but they don't like it. They will also back a situation, without seeing the dog. They seem to know if horses are standing arouund or if I am going to flush they ought to stop and watch. And rather than steal point, he allowe his to be stolen, remaining steady.

That is exactly my point if he comes on the pointing dog, sees it and doesn't back, all sorts of bad things can happen.
Backing situations can be a real problem in test where they do set up honors. Some dogs stop as quick as they see the horses. Makes it hard to get a real honor. Some judges pass a dog that does that. Many trainers train their dogs to honor situations. I don't.............Cj

There is a big difference between a dog refusing to back and a dog blinking a back. A dog that is blinking a back will not steal point or cause the pointed bird to be accidentally flushed. A blinker will not cause you any of the problems you are envisioning - a point stealer will. In your scenario of the dog coming into the situation such that they are on the wrong side of the wind to the bird, sees the dog, refuses to back and continues on in till the bird flushes is a refusal to back and a point stealer. A blinking dog will not continue on in because once he sees the pointing dog he will try to avoid the situation and will move on out an away from the scene, not barrel in to where the birds are.

Dogs that willingly back do not need any "training" to honour situations. All they need is an experience or two.

slistoe wrote:There is a big difference between a dog refusing to back and a dog blinking a back. A dog that is blinking a back will not steal point or cause the pointed bird to be accidentally flushed. A blinker will not cause you any of the problems you are envisioning - a point stealer will. In your scenario of the dog coming into the situation such that they are on the wrong side of the wind to the bird, sees the dog, refuses to back and continues on in till the bird flushes is a refusal to back and a point stealer. A blinking dog will not continue on in because once he sees the pointing dog he will try to avoid the situation and will move on out an away from the scene, not barrel in to where the birds are.

Dogs that willingly back do not need any "training" to honour situations. All they need is an experience or two.

Explain the "big" difference between refusing and blinking a back?

You said..."A blinking dog will not continue on in because once he sees the pointing dog he will try to avoid the situation and will move on out an away from the scene, not barrel in to where the birds are".

Are you saying the dog recognized another dog is pointing birds and he will "move on out and away from the scene"? I've never seen nor heard this before in all my born days. A dog that "moves away from the scene" is not worth having.

If a dog sees another dog on point, blinks the back, it is with the expressed intent to either steal the point (get in front) or make point (along or slightly behind). Both display poor training and bad manners. Like I said, I've never witnessed or seen a back blinking dog "move away from the scene" when he knows there are birds there. This forum..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Very typical of this forum alright - minds that are closed to all things but their own isolated experiences.

In your opinion, are ripping the bird and blinking the bird the same thing? Of course they aren't. Neither are blinking the back and refusal to back.

Refusal to back is the politically correct way to refer to a point stealer. Whether he points ahead, alongside or up the butt of the pointing dog it is still point stealing.