My pup is eating birds on retreive

Roffey · Post by **Roffey** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:10 am

A little backround... I have a 7 month old YLF. Following Dokkens program mostly. Im doing gun conditioning at this point with frozen birds. Everything is good other then shes realized that she can eat the birds. Retreving and obedience is going well with bumpers or dokkens mallard. When shes returning with the bird she trying to figure out how to eat it before i get it back. Any tips or tricks to stop her? I havent FF or CC at this point (mostly because im snowed in and taking it easy as not to hurt the dog). Should I go to collar conditioning or maybe even start force fetch to clean this up?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:03 pm

Are you sure she's eating it or just mouthing it?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:19 pm

Tips or tricks? I would work on a check cord and get the retrieves quickly and direct leaving little time to mouth or chew the frozen bird. I would work on a conditioned retrieve component...HOLD. If you are not familiar with the hold exercise there are lots of resources available to learn. Good luck, hope this helps.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:58 pm

Roffey wrote:A little backround... I havent FF or CC at this point (mostly because im snowed in and taking it easy as not to hurt the dog). Should I go to collar conditioning or maybe even start force fetch to clean this up?

Yes both can be done indoors. FF and CC will eliminate this behavior. Do not coddle this dog because of conditions.

Here winter time training of a fine BL Lab a few years back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPEGXjlhhEo

No time for mouthing chewing when done this way.
Today this nice dog handle 4oo-500 yd. marks and 300 yd blinds, during his test carrer he went 6 for 6 At the finished level of his HRCH title
This dog basics and foundation are spot on.
Here Blake is running a Double mark off the short gun station on the indented triple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CzFCzXJJy8

The point of all this is simply this "You just never know how good they will become if only the basics are properly taught and explained to the dog"

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:12 pm

What is a YLF?

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:48 pm

Yellow Lab Female!

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:54 pm

YLF = You Lose (using) Frozen (birds)

Yellow Lab female or any gundog.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:16 pm

I'll second MG. Quit using frozen birds. Thaw them first, re-freeze when your session is done. No need to use em frozen, you'll never shoot a frozen one out of the sky, even if you live up my way

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:37 pm

Roffey wrote:A little backround... I have a 7 month old YLF. Following Dokkens program mostly. Im doing gun conditioning at this point with frozen birds. Everything is good other then shes realized that she can eat the birds. Retreving and obedience is going well with bumpers or dokkens mallard. When shes returning with the bird she trying to figure out how to eat it before i get it back. Any tips or tricks to stop her? I havent FF or CC at this point (mostly because im snowed in and taking it easy as not to hurt the dog). Should I go to collar conditioning or maybe even start force fetch to clean this up?

You can easily FF in the house -- particularly if you follow SmartFetch by Evan Graham.
CC to HERE can be accomplished outdoors without the need for a lot of space. cc to here is covered in the Evan Graham Puppy DVD.

IMO, get off the Dokken program and go with the Smart Work series of books and DVDs (again by Evan Graham).

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:39 am

Roffey, have you ever tried your dog on an unfrozen bird ? If so, what did the dog do ?

What species of bird are you using as frozen retrieves ?

Bill T.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:44 am

Bill, doesn't matter if it's a dovesicle or a ducksicle or a chukarcicle - ain't none of 'em good for a gundog's mouth habits as frozen retrieves.

MG

Senah · Post by **Senah** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:12 am

We helped mediate this problem by starting ours on a collar at 6 months, and when he got gophers or things like that we lit him up and shouted "Drop it!". We have also been working on give now so that the bird comes to hand. But, getting him to drop anything at any time (not aways the desired end result, but better than not if you eat the birds) has been helpful and was quickly learned when he got buzzed aggressively the first week. Hasn't back slid and all we have to say is "drop it".

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:42 am

That may have "mediated" the problem but you're lucky it didn't mediate the dog right out of the retrieving business.

OP, please don't ever use the e-collar when a gundog's got something in its mouth - especially something that has been or still is alive. Very dangerous to the dog's future as a working gundog.

MG

Senah · Post by **Senah** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:20 am

He is actually a fantastic retriever, loves it, and shows no hesitation. We did it at the front end so we almost never ever have to give any electricity now. The give command is what we are using now that he is retrieving birds when hunting - we never use the collar for drop it when hunting.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:49 pm

Del Lolo wrote:
Roffey wrote:A little backround... I have a 7 month old YLF. Following Dokkens program mostly. Im doing gun conditioning at this point with frozen birds. Everything is good other then shes realized that she can eat the birds. Retreving and obedience is going well with bumpers or dokkens mallard. When shes returning with the bird she trying to figure out how to eat it before i get it back. Any tips or tricks to stop her? I havent FF or CC at this point (mostly because im snowed in and taking it easy as not to hurt the dog). Should I go to collar conditioning or maybe even start force fetch to clean this up?
You can easily FF in the house -- particularly if you follow SmartFetch by Evan Graham.
CC to HERE can be accomplished outdoors without the need for a lot of space. cc to here is covered in the Evan Graham Puppy DVD.

IMO, get off the Dokken program and go with the Smart Work series of books and DVDs (again by Evan Graham).

And let me know if I can be of help. It sounds like you could use it about now. Good advice so far. This is not a problem for "tips and tricks". It's a problem that needs to be trained through, and right away!

EvanG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:59 pm

crackerd wrote:YLF = You Lose (using) Frozen (birds)

Yellow Lab female or any gundog.

MG

+100. Thank goodness said it.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:06 pm

crackerd wrote:YLF = You Lose (using) Frozen (birds)

Yellow Lab female or any gundog.

MG

x2

I know its been a cold winter up north, but not cold enough for the birds to freeze solid before they hit the ground.

Nate

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:17 pm

Senah wrote:He is actually a fantastic retriever, loves it, and shows no hesitation. We did it at the front end so we almost never ever have to give any electricity now. The give command is what we are using now that he is retrieving birds when hunting - we never use the collar for drop it when hunting.

That may be but as crackered said, you got extremely lucky. I am really surprised the dog wasn't ruined as far as retrieving is concerned.

Charlie

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:41 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote: ..., you'll never shoot a frozen one out of the sky, even if you live up my way

Well the Weather Channel sure made it sound like you'd need slugs to knock the frozen birds down...as cold as they said it was.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:47 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote: ..., you'll never shoot a frozen one out of the sky, even if you live up my way
Well the Weather Channel sure made it sound like you'd need slugs to knock the frozen birds down...as cold as they said it was.

I didn't know it got cold on the west coast.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote: ..., you'll never shoot a frozen one out of the sky, even if you live up my way
Well the Weather Channel sure made it sound like you'd need slugs to knock the frozen birds down...as cold as they said it was.
I didn't know it got cold on the west coast.

60 degrees and they are breaking the toques out aren't they?

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:00 am

It gets cold out here. Why just the other day it was well below 70. It was so cold the suntan lotion was hard to put on. I was even thinking about going without it. Im just glad its back to normal for late winter...75F and moderate to severe clear.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:00 am

When a dog develops a mouth problem with birds, you're a heart beat away from not having a dog. If there's one unexcuseable thing to do with a dog, it's to let a bird handling problem go untreated and ignore it. If the problem progresses to the point that the dog stops to eat the bird on the way in, then you're in real trouble.

If you're following Doken, when you ff the dog, which should be NOW, it SHOULD cure the problem. Sometimes you never cure a problem, you control it. Never make the mistake of trying to go "around" a problem. That's the difference between a pro and and amateur; a pro cures the problem, an amateur goes around the problem and hope it doesn't surface. I think Doken uses the same basic ear pinch ff program that most of us do, but if he doesn't, I strongly suggest you buy Smart Fetch; it's the program I learned 40 years ago and the one I still use.

Many times people THINK they have a bird handling problem and in fact it's just a loose mouth. When you work through ff, work particularly diligently on hold, with the dog keeping his jaws completely still. Also on drop. When you command drop the dog, once you touch the bird should open his mouth and back his head away from it. Never let him hold on to it and play tug of war with you.

The other component will be a flawless recall. When you say HERE, he better HERE, and at a rapid rate with no stops to pee on bushes or sniff the daisies on the way in. Good Luck.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:16 am

I have worked through this hardmouth issue too many times. And 1 time is too many, frankly.

As stated. TEACH HOLD, and go through a whole trained retrieve. Quit frozen birds. In fact quit BIRDS completely for now. and don't go back until the bumper is carried calmly, nicely, and with no chewing, rolling, tossing etc. Don't go back until you have completed a trained retrieve entirely with perfect results. When you do go back start with large birds that are not too heavy to easily carry but to big to swallow whole. Pheasants or small ducks.

It's a PIA to deal with this. I don't envy you.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:43 am

Mountaindogs, here's the original post

Roffey wrote:A little backround... I have a 7 month old YLF. Following Dokkens program mostly. Im doing gun conditioning at this point with frozen birds. Everything is good other then shes realized that she can eat the birds. Retreving and obedience is going well with bumpers or dokkens mallard. When shes returning with the bird she trying to figure out how to eat it before i get it back. Any tips or tricks to stop her? I havent FF or CC at this point (mostly because im snowed in and taking it easy as not to hurt the dog). Should I go to collar conditioning or maybe even start force fetch to clean this up?

I wouldn't withhold birds but I would only have the dog pick up ducks. Yes, unadulturatedly yes, force fetch will clean up mouth habits. But the obedience should be in place - the obedience of returning with a retrieve - well ahead of force fetch. At least it is for retrieverites who train their own dogs, because the retriever programs we use happen to hinge on obedience.

But more to your point -

mountaindogs wrote:I have worked through this hardmouth issue too many times. And 1 time is too many, frankly.

As stated. TEACH HOLD, and go through a whole trained retrieve. Quit frozen birds. In fact quit BIRDS completely for now. and don't go back until the bumper is carried calmly, nicely, and with no chewing, rolling, tossing etc. Don't go back until you have completed a trained retrieve entirely with perfect results. When you do go back start with large birds that are not too heavy to easily carry but to big to swallow whole. Pheasants or ...ducks.

It's a PIA to deal with this. I don't envy you.

- if you would introduce your dogs to the same birds you're recommending to the OP and at an early age, you would never have this "hardmouth" issue again. First of all, it ain't hardmouth - a dog eating the bird is, a-dog-eating-the-bird. Not macerating or mangling a bird, but eating it. So let's establish it's more of an appetite issue than a mouth issue to begin with. To head it off before it ever occurs, you want to give a pup - any breed of gundog pup -

an early introduction to the larger birds you've recommended above, namely ducks, and you will never have a retrieving mouth problem again - hard, soft, or eviscerating. I can all but guarantee that.

MG

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:06 pm

I have 5 dogs of my own. None have or ever had any retrieving problems to speak of. When I say I have dealt with it, I do not imply nearly as much as you assume.

Also, I stand by my opinion. Take away birds until the issue is under better control. And do not add them back until you have the tools to fix the issue. Much like house training, the more accidents that happen the bigger the issue becomes.

To the OP, Beautiful thing is you have the choice to handle it as you decide. You have lots of advice.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:16 pm

Don't want to assume anything, mountaindogs, but can categorically state that you're either mislabeling hardmouth or wrongheadedly embarking on a new definition for it.

Another thing: You don't take birds away from a Lab, as in withholding retrieves, you take a bird away from a Lab gently with your hand as the Lab delivers it. That is, if the obedience - and cooperation - have been put in the dog from the start. You've got a Lab now, right?

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:50 pm

Roffey wrote:A little backround... I have a 7 month old YLF. Following Dokkens program mostly. Im doing gun conditioning at this point with frozen birds. Everything is good other then shes realized that she can eat the birds. Retreving and obedience is going well with bumpers or dokkens mallard. When shes returning with the bird she trying to figure out how to eat it before i get it back. Any tips or tricks to stop her?

Sounds like a plain 'Re-Call' issue !
If the retrieves with game were at 2 feet away to start with,the dog ain't got no ''time'' to think about eating if You control the Re-call?..You can progress from there and increase the distance.
Ordinarily I would be giving 'Long' retrieves so that the dog 'Has the game in the gob longer'!..But by the sounds of this one,the handler isn't 'Forcing' the re-call,so the Fetch is not the solution,merely the trigger for the issue.Imo)

Roffey · Post by **Roffey** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:49 pm

Wow ! Hit lots of nerves... It's been ice and snow and ice and snow all winter. Worked mostly on obedience for the last couple months which is coming along very well. Recall is very good. Ive been using ducks for retrieving during gun conditioning. What I was trying to do is not force fetch until conditioning was done as not to slow the prey drive but if I allow her to mouth the birds then Ill have to train that out as well. I have a trainer im going to have help me assess and ill go from there. Pretty tough explaining on here in a few sentences.
Thanks everyone for all the advice

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:31 pm

Roffey wrote:Worked mostly on obedience for the last couple months which is coming along very well. Recall is very good.

polmaise wrote:Sounds like a plain 'Re-Call' issue!
If the retrieves with game were at 2 feet away to start with,the dog ain't got no ''time'' to think about eating if You control the Re-call?..You can progress from there and increase the distance.
Ordinarily I would be giving 'Long' retrieves so that the dog 'Has the game in the gob longer'!..But by the sounds of this one,the handler isn't 'Forcing' the re-call,so the Fetch is not the solution, merely the trigger for the issue.Imo)

What Robt. - and others - are trying to tell you is the recall ain't very good. Otherwise, the dog wouldn't be mouthing and eating the bird on the way back.

Have you ever seen a field Lab or a Lab in a field trial return with a retrieve? - they blow in at about 100mph because they know they've got to get the bird back to you before they can go or the next one, or the next one. All this has to do with early exposure to birds and subsequently force fetching not long afterward.

Which renders your perception of force fetch way, way off.

Roffey wrote: What I was trying to do is not force fetch until conditioning was done as not to slow the prey drive...

Force fetch doesn't tamp down, diminish or "slow" prey drive in any way - if anything, it helps instill a work ethic in the dog to make that "prey drive" work for you.

Roffey wrote:...but if I allow her to mouth the birds then Ill have to train that out as well. I have a trainer im going to have help me assess and ill go from there.

Hope it's a retriever trainer - for, you know, a Labrador retriever - or you may be going to a trainer who'll probably tell you that you've got to train that out (eating birds) as well. Which is, pardon my language, balderdash. But in any event, good luck on getting ahead of it; shouldn't be a problem if you impart force fetch and if you do it for the right reasons.

MG

Senah · Post by **Senah** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:41 pm

I sure wish I knew everything. Must be nice.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:15 am

Roffey wrote: I have a trainer im going to have help me assess and ill go from there. Pretty tough explaining on here in a few sentences.
Thanks everyone for all the advice

It sure is! and the added confusion/frustration with how it is perceived by all parties

I'm a huge fan of video clips as a picture paints a thousand words,being a coach would also lend me to applaud the decision to see a trainer who will have the advantage over everyone on here (including yourself) to See what's going on with you and the dog

Let us know how you get along,and more importantly for all of us. What fixed it?...Best of luck with the dog.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:21 am

Senah wrote:I sure wish I knew everything. Must be nice.

Yeah, always nice too to have somebody else do your R&D - like when not to "shock" a dog with the e-collar.

Hey, Robt., since you're up at this ungodly hour, can you give me the 220v conductivity rating for feathers coated with dog saliva?

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:40 am

8:30 am over here MG .I've just loaded the truck with 8 and a lovely Sunny Spring day.
Not too much time for 'One Liner's' , but regards 'REAL' Bird Cruncher Munchers (Which I believe the one in question IS NOT!) I save on Electric bills with 'Balloons,as YOU already know

.'

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:52 am

Crackerd,

I agree with a lot of what you said, especially if FF is the direction the OP wants to take. Although I have to flinch when I think of the thought of a novice attempting FF armed with a book, DVD in one hand and a pup on a bench. Sometimes sending off a dog to a pro who will work and show you how it's done is the best approach.

My question is how do you reconcile advising the OP to immediately start the FF program and at the same time advising the OP to not stop using birds? The two are not compatible at the start of the FF process. Birds come last, as I'm sure you know.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:58 am

EvanG wrote:And let me know if I can be of help. It sounds like you could use it about now. Good advice so far. This is not a problem for "tips and tricks". It's a problem that needs to be trained through, and right away!

EvanG

Keep this simple: in the words of the late Rex Carr, "Just train the dog." I hope you plan to get going immediately.

EvanG

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:20 am

Grousehunter123 wrote:My question is how do you reconcile advising the OP to immediately start the FF program and at the same time advising the OP to not stop using birds? The two are not compatible at the start of the FF process. Birds come last, as I'm sure you know.

Grousehunter, many trainers (how many I can't say but I'm one of them) don't force dogs on birds any more - especially with retrievers; they/we go with early bird introduction and forcing is done with a paint roller or dowel only.

Believe the gentleman who posted just above me and below you, Mr. Graham, does have forcing on birds in his program. That's how he does it and he's successful - but it's a choice that a trainer, even a newcomer trainer, will need to make for himself. I personally don't like the potential "distasteful" association a gundog might make with birds in being forced on something it already loves (and lives) to retrieve.

The original poster might have to force his dog on birds because of the dog's "eating habit" - but I really believe his problem can be taken care of with a check cord and an obedient recall. (And as mountaindogs noted, with birds of such size - ducks - that the dog can't possibly eat in the 5-10 seconds it takes to return with the bird.)

MG

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:50 am

crackerd wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:My question is how do you reconcile advising the OP to immediately start the FF program and at the same time advising the OP to not stop using birds? The two are not compatible at the start of the FF process. Birds come last, as I'm sure you know.
Grousehunter, many trainers (how many I can't say but I'm one of them) don't force dogs on birds any more - especially with retrievers; they/we go with early bird introduction and forcing is done with a paint roller or dowel only.

Believe the gentleman who posted just above me and below you, Mr. Graham, does have forcing on birds in his program. That's how he does it and he's successful - but it's a choice that a trainer, even a newcomer trainer, will need to make for himself. I personally don't like the potential "distasteful" association a gundog might make with birds in being forced on something it already loves (and lives) to retrieve.

The original poster might have to force his dog on birds because of the dog's "eating habit" - but I really believe his problem can be taken care of with a check cord and an obedient recall. (And as mountaindogs noted, with birds of such size - ducks - that the dog can't possibly eat in the 5-10 seconds it takes to return with the bird.)

MG

I agree. My very first post stated basically this: "I would work on a check cord and get the retrieves quickly and direct leaving little time to mouth or chew the frozen bird".

However, you recommended to let the dog retrieve thawed ducks, then you recommended beginning the FF process and you lost me there. In FF you don't start with birds, you end with birds.

The OP stated he is doing GUN CONDITIONING. In the process of conditioning his dog to the gun he has chosen a method (frozen birds) which has revealed a problem in his pup attempting to eat the frozen bird. I would recommend to the OP seek another method to gun condition the dog that does not necessitate the dog grasping the bird. Ie...let the dog Chase a flying bird while gun conditioning. If that is not practical at this time, I would use a helper to fire the gun while throwing a dummy as the reward/distraction. Once you are satisfied you have a properly gun conditioned dog....you know your next problem is the dog eating the bird.

I'd start from scratch. I'd tape wings on dummies for him to retrieve. ALWAYS ON A CHECK CORD. Your pup HAS NOT "EARNED" the right to have complete freedom yet. Once that is going well, move on to frozen (or not) birds, AGAIN ON A CHECKCORD. I would try the HOLD COMMAND. Get the books, DVD's or trainer resources and follow the steps to a "T". The process will involve no birds until the very end of the process.

If all of the above is not successful then the sure fire fix is the formalized FF process and I advise this OP to strongly consider hiring a pro to work with or do the job entirely. It is VERY fixable.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:53 am

Grousehunter123 wrote:...if FF is the direction the OP wants to take ...I have to flinch when I think of the thought of a novice attempting FF armed with a book, DVD in one hand and a pup on a bench. Sometimes sending off a dog to a pro who will work and show you how it's done is the best approach.

Couldn't agree with you more, grousehunter, especially when an unexpected problem like a dog eating birds has cropped up - but I also believe Mr. Graham's step-by program can get a novice through force fetch with flying colors. Particularly if used when a dog or pup is at the most suitable age for undertaking it - which by my measure would be 6-7 months.

Force fetching doesn't have to be a blood bath or a pyrrhic victory for you. Or the dog. But you do want to get informed help for both of you in taking it on. Evan?

MG

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:57 am

Grousehunter123 wrote: However, you recommended to let the dog retrieve thawed ducks, then you recommended beginning the FF process and you lost me there. In FF you don't start with birds, you end with birds.

Repeating, on retriever trainers:

Grousehunter, many trainers (how many I can't say, but I'm one of them) don't force dogs on birds any more - especially with retrievers; they/we go with early bird introduction and forcing is done with a paint roller or dowel only.

Believe the gentleman who posted just above me and below you, Mr. Graham, does have forcing on birds in his program. That's how he does it and he's successful - but it's a choice that a trainer, even a newcomer trainer, will need to make for himself. I personally don't like the potential "distasteful" association a gundog might make with birds in being forced on something it already loves (and lives) to retrieve.

MG

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:05 am

crackerd wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:...if FF is the direction the OP wants to take ...I have to flinch when I think of the thought of a novice attempting FF armed with a book, DVD in one hand and a pup on a bench. Sometimes sending off a dog to a pro who will work and show you how it's done is the best approach.
Couldn't agree with you more, grousehunter, especially when an unexpected problem like a dog eating birds has cropped up - but I also believe Mr. Graham's step-by program can get a novice through force fetch with flying colors. Particularly if used when a dog or pup is at the most suitable age for undertaking it - which by my measure would be 6-7 months.

Force fetching doesn't have to be a blood bath or a pyrrhic victory for you. Or the dog. But you do want to get informed help for both of you in taking it on. Evan?

MG

And I'm sure you are right, as I do not have his particular training system, but I hear very good things about it. Confession time. I have screwed up royally in my past trying to FF on my own. I have had one dog FF trained by a pro and I'd give it a grade of C-. I currently have a dog FF by a pro and I'd give it a grade of A+. The OP has a lot to think about. Eating birds is a problem and there is no time like the present to get on top of it.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:35 am

crackerd wrote:Couldn't agree with you more, grousehunter, especially when an unexpected problem like a dog eating birds has cropped up - but I also believe Mr. Graham's step-by program can get a novice through force fetch with flying colors. Particularly if used when a dog or pup is at the most suitable age for undertaking it - which by my measure would be 6-7 months.

Indeed, it is the step by step progression you should learn first, and then proceed. Then you will find the wisdom in an old adage, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Prepare then train. Amateur trainers do it successfully every single day.

crackerd wrote:Force fetching doesn't have to be a blood bath or a pyrrhic victory for you. Or the dog. But you do want to get informed help for both of you in taking it on. Evan?

MG

If force fetching your dog is a traumatic event it is because you made it one, and not because it was necessary. It is because trainers have little or no knowledge of it, coupled with a poor attitude about it that make things go wrong. If you approach FF with the intent to overwhelm your dog with pain in order to force him to submit to your will you're beaten before you start. FF is a conditioning process, and should not be a battle.

Let me ask this; Is he worth $50 to you? I guarantee that to be a fraction of what you would pay a competent pro for just one month. Train the dog. I'll be glad to help with any questions you may have.

EvanG